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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
OSAS The Truth
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
(Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)
Freegrace has said that there is no POWER in belief in and of itself. It has no merit. The Grace bestowed upon us at the MOMENT we believe is the merit of our salvation, not our belief. (Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)
(Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah) anyone who is reading and following knows exactly what freegrace meant with that statement.
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dadof10
Member
The gifts are God's, correct? So, God gives and HE will not revoke them. We, on the other hand, can. If I gave you an "irrevocable" gift, could you give it back or throw it away? Of course. You are taking ONE verse and trying to force a doctrine out of it. That God doesn't revoke, but we do, squares with the rest of Scripture, also.
dadof10
Member
Ok, how would you interpret:
"James 2:21-24 KJV
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
So, are we justified by works or does the word "justified" here mean "shown to be righteous"? If the latter, then a person can "show" that he "has eternal life".
Why would any Christian say such a thing as...believing accomplishes nothing ?
Believe = salvation
Believe for a while = saved for a while
Here are some quotes from Jesus Christ -
28 And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." 29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you." Matthew 9:28-29
And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction." Mark 5:34
Then Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road. Mark 10:52
Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." Luke 7:50
The scriptures teach us that it's possible for a person to be overcome by sin, and become hardened to the point of turning away from God.
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end... Hebrews 3:12-14
For we have become partakers of Christ if... we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
and again -
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it...
JLB
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chessman
Member
I'm not tracking it down, but I'm quite sure you've misunderstood me if you think I've changed my answer to the same question in another thread. It was either another question or you misunderstood my answer. Plus, when you ask complex and presumptive questions (two or more questions phrased to sound like one where you presume an answer to one or more within the question) it's not a logical question.
The same way every believer get's their sins forgiven. God forgives them. It's in the very verse you just quoted?
Now answer my questions, please:
1. Do you think that to be saved, a believer has to specfically ask for forgiveness for every individual sin he/she commits each day/hour? (Yes or no)
2. How about sins they/we are deceived into thinking they aren't actually committing, how can a person ask for forgiveness of one or more sins that they don't even realize they've committed?
3. Do you think God forgives all our sins when we confess our sins and believe in Him or just some of them?
You said: "accord to FreeGrace we don't even have to believe to be saved."
He said: "Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't. All accomplishment was done by Jesus Christ. He did it all, including giving eternal life to those who believe, WHEN they believe (Jn 5:24)."
So, as I said, you misquoted him.
Plus, if you'd actually use the reply feature of this site, it provides a helpful link you can use to go back to the entire conversation and verify the quote and see it in it's context.
In it's context, He was responding to this statement of yours:"
JLB said: ↑
"The work of Christ and the benefits to us, from His work of the cross is accomplished by believing."
Which of course is anti-Christian.
The work of Christ is NOT accomplished by believing! But technically that's what you said, so he replied to it in the way he did.
Now, I don't personally even think you believe that the work of Christ is accomplished by our believing. But technically, that's what your statement says occurs. Maybe it was just a typo or poor grammer/syntax. IDK. But his reply was a direct response to that statement of yours about who accomplishes what, WRT salvation. Regardless, stop misquoting people and acvusing us of universalism.
And confess it to God to get re-saved. Hurry
. [that's a joke, BTW]Biblically speaking, it's the power of God that saves all of us who are saved, not us that accomplishes our own salvation. That was his point, and he's correct.
God purposed to bring about salvation through belief in His Son for the forgiveness of ALL our sins. (Not just the ones we realize and confess).
He could have choosen to have us click our heels three times and become saved or he could just randomly choose people with blue eyes for salvation. But He didn't. He choose to accomplish the work of salvation Himself for all that believe (not just some) and for all our sins (not just some).
But the point is, it's God doing the actual saving, not us. And He's not deceived by any (not a single one) of our sins.
Plus, none of us believe in universalism, AND YOU KNOW WE DON'T. Why say we do?
How does a person who believed for a while, then no longer believes, get his sins forgiven?
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
If a person no longer believes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb who takes away sins, then that person no longer confesses his sin and asks for forgiveness from God in Jesus name.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9
If we confess our sins... He is faith and just to forgive us.
The one who believes for a while then no longer believes in Christ, has no forgiveness of sins.
JLB
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
If a person no longer believes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb who takes away sins, then that person no longer confesses his sin and asks for forgiveness from God in Jesus name.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9
If we confess our sins... He is faith and just to forgive us.
The one who believes for a while then no longer believes in Christ, has no forgiveness of sins.
JLB
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Gregg
Member
Abraham believed God, who counted that act of faith to him as righteousness (James 2:23, Gen 15:6). God's accounting to him righteousness was a divine act, a declaration of God, but God did not impute His righteousness to Abraham at that time; not until Christ was resurrected from the dead.
A man is shown to be righteous (James 2:24); as this verse does not address imputed righteousness upon being saved, much less the righteousness of God imputed to a man upon believing into Christ.
Abraham looked forward to the day when God's righteousness would be accounted to him, knowing that God would preserve him until that Day; as Jesus said, "Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced" (John 8:56 LITV). How do we know that this is what Jesus was referring to, that Abraham was looking for a future Messiah? Because of Abraham's words to his son Isaac, "Abraham said, 'God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.' " (Gen 22:8 ESV).
- - -
Now that the LORD Jesus Christ is resurrected, God imputes His righteousness to the one believing; as Jesus came saying, "seek . . . His righteousness" (Mat 6:33). Paul confirms that it is now the righteousness of God imputed to us who believe in Christ, "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2Cor 5:21 LITV, see also Rom 5:9, Rom 5:19, Rom 10:3-4). God Himself is the source of the righteousness imputed to a NT believer "through the faith of Christ, having the righteousness of God on faith" (Php 3:9 LITV). Isaiah wrote of this very thing looking ahead to the Messiah, "Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength" (Isa 45:24 KJV), and again, "In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified," (Isa 45:25 KJV).
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Amen!
A believer is placed into Christ.
Agreed!
Proof of faith is now.
Eternal life is in the age to come.
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.
Mark 10:30
Look at when specifically Jesus says these go INTO eternal life.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46
The final destiny of the wicked and the righteous are decided on Judgement Day, after Jesus returns at the Resurrection.
The righteous will then be grated access into eternal life, as they will now have an immortal body that will never die.
JLB
I explained the issue. You are free to take it or leave it.
Not with God. With man, this is impossible. But not for God. Matt 19:26
To remind you, the discussion is about Rom 11:29 being about God's gift, which was described in 6:23 as eternal life, is irrevocable. The calling, also mentioned in 11:29 doesn't refer to Israel, as some are claiming. While God calls Israel His people, that's not a "calling". They are His CHOSEN people. And has nothing to do with Rom 11:29.
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
It's never been my premis that anyone was "once saved". Those who have been saved continue to be saved. There is no such person as "once saved". Unless you add the phrase "always saved".
IOW, once a person is saved, they remain saved.
If you don't believe this, where do you find verses that actually SAY that salvation can be lost. There's a whole lot of assumption about what passages mean, but none come out and say what the non-OSASers claim.
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(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) I made it clear that the act of believing has no power. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) It means that your act does NOT save you.
Who does the saving when one believes? God does. God alone does. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
When a person believes, God saves them. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
They don't. They stay out of fellowship, which is the point and subject of 1 Jn 1. And Jesus said that those who don't abide in Him (for fellowship) won't produce fruit (the subject of John 15).
I expect that you've added dying without sins forgiven as a basis for going to the LoF. So where is the verse that says so?
The truth is that Jesus Christ died for all the sins of all humanity. 1 Jn 2:2 says so. They were paid for. On that basis, those who believe in Christ receive eternal life WHEN they believe, according to Jesus, in Jn 5:24, (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
And God's gifts (charisma) which include eternal life, are irrevocable, (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
1 Jn 1 speaks about those who claim they have no sin, and thereby are making God a liar. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
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(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
Here is Scripture; (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
1. Eternal life is a gift (charisma) per Rom 6:23.
2. God gives eternal life per 1 Jn 5:11.
3. Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life per Jn 5:24.
4. God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
God gives eternal life WHEN a peson believes in Christ, and His gifts are irrevocable. I've cited the verses that prove this statement.
Yes. Expectation of severe discpline in time, and loss of future eternal reward.
I'm still waiting for ANY verse that says what you claim; that salvation can be lost. Your "interpolation" of Scripture is quite inaccurate.
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Where do you get this idea from? Certainly NOT from Scripture.
Irrelevant. Apples and oranges.
Your view suggests that you are more powerful than God. He gave you birth. Can you UN-birth yourself? Of course not.
The doctrine is seen throughout Scripture.
Not at all. There are no verses that say that we can give our salvation, new birth, forgiveness, justification, etc back.
Your view does not square with Scripture.
Your sins are forgiven, "Your faith has saved you.
Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." Luke 7:50
48 Then He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."
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smaller
Member
Because of the construct, every word of every believer is suspect. That is why we measure positions such as OSAS to the scriptures. And what we will find is that in the same body of every believer, in that clay container called our body is both a vessel of honor and a vessel of wrath that is bound for eternal damnation in the LoF. That is how every believer stands before God. God assuredly also engages BOTH parties therein in this present life.
Just because a believer broadcasts OSAS, it takes no account for the NOT OSAS party within that every believer is bound to deal with. In short, a perpetual adversity exists and remains between God, His Word, and the adversary within any believer regardless and that adversity is perpetual in this present life.
Paul shows us how this works, here in Romans 7 for example:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
That is the factual operations of the tempter reacting INTERNALLY adversely to the LAW. And that DEFILES all of us internally. This reaction happens within ALL believers and SHOWS the internal reality of the operation of the tempter. The same applies to every Word of God. Satan and his resist it in believers every single time it is engaged and do so internally. Paul did not see his wretched condition as something without a genuine fulcrum. It was a result of the factual presence of evil with him and the sin that indwelt him that was NOT him. That indwelling sin was not him, it was DEMONICALLY BASED.
Sin was and remains of the DEVIL in believers and unbelievers. Believers who claim 'immunity' from this reality are simply mistaken (Edit, ToS2.4. Obadiah), made so by the darkness that power imposes on them.
The notions that the nonOSAS camps promote is just as incorrect (Edit, ToS2.4. Obadiah) . They can act as holy as they please. They are and will remain sinners and their sin is of the devil regardless. I'll give credit to OSAS adherents IF they don't blame and accuse the believer when they have another party to view. Sadly however for the most part they just heap FORGIVENESS on the internal adversary when the fact is the OPPOSITE will happen. That adversary IS under WRATH and ETERNAL CONDEMNATION.
In my opinion (Edit, ToS2.4. Obadiah)the nonOSAS folk have just fallen deeper into error (Edit, ToS2.4. Obadiah) and have a much harder time with these issues, as is shown in this thread. They outright condemn believers and fallen believers (Edit, ToS2.4. Obadiah) thinking that if only they behave they will maybe be spared.
(Removed, ToS2.4. Obadiah)
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smaller
Member
There is no use to keep saying that a messenger of Satan was a beating or weakness or anything else you might think you see that makes a messenger of Satan anything other than the EVIL WICKED SPIRIT ENTITY that it factually was.
Apostles are put at the forefront of spiritual battles. As such they are singled out for adversity by THE TEMPTER and that battle transpired within them all. That is 'how' and 'why' Paul termed himself in the present tense, "sinners of whom I AM chief." He was so by the workings of the spiritual adversary, the TEMPTER, internally.
Paul DECONSTRUCTED himself OPENLY for all of us to view.
It is only difficult to understand when we fall into hypocrisy and lying about internal temptation being of a party who is not us, but is the TEMPTER.
You can claim the tempter is not a spiritual adversary and you can also claim personal exemption. I measure every believer including myself to what we have been shown, even if it is personally uncomfortable and an assault to my perceptions of self.
I haven't observed any non OSAS people who have condemned believers or fallen believers.
The word of God applies to us all.
You can not run from God's word, it's best to embrace it, and believe it and allow it to change you.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9
Me personally, I ask God to forgive me, and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.
I ask this of God in Jesus name, who is the Lamb of God, who takes away my sin.
A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, won't bother to do this, because he simply does not believe anymore.
Is there some other way we are forgiven of our sins, and cleansed of our unrighteousness?
JLB
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chessman
Member
(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
When you ask a question that has one or more questions in them and assumptions built into the question, expect funny answers. That’s why they are not allowed in legal proceedings where the goal is to determine the truth.
“How does a person who believed for a while, then no longer believes, get his sins forgiven?”
First, when you present this as some sort of anti-OSAS proof, you are obviously assuming that to be saved people must confess each and every sin they’ve ever committed, else they aren’t saved. Which is incorrect, Biblically speaking. Just look at the thief on the cross for an example of why your assumption (and this RCC notion to include the reasons for purgatory, venial vs mortal sins, etc.) is so obviously fallacious. Plus the very verse you keep posting is clearly telling you that saved people can and do deceive themselves (John even said “ourselves”, so he recognizes this even for himself) into thinking they aren’t sinning when in fact they actually are sinning.
But guess what 1 John 1:8-9 doesn’t say? It doesn’t say one word about salvation or loss thereof. If you were really interested in what the Bible had to say about salvation (versus what you think about salvation), you’d be posting Scriptures that were talking about salvation or the loss of salvation. 1 John 1:8-9 doesn’t even say anything about salvation. What it says is that Christians can deceive themselves into thinking they aren’t sinning.
But guess what it does say? “He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” As compared to my answer that you thought was so funny: “God forgives them.”
But since you didn’t ask about salvation (you asked about how a person gets his sins forgiven), I answered your question.
(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah) Are you aware of any other method for a person (saved or not saved) to be forgiven of sins other than the method I said; “God forgives them”?
Maybe you think another priest forgives them or that Mary forgives them? I don’t hold to those doctrines and I believe what the Bible says. That only God forgives sins. (Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah) I’m just looking at Scripture(s).
If you think you are paraphrasing John 1:8-9 with your statement above, I think I see the problem here and see why it is that you keep misquoting others on this thread and thinking it’s perfectly fine to do so. You read into the text what you want it to say, regardless of what it actually says and ignore the texts that disagree with your anti-OSAS ideas.
You didn’t answer a single one of these questions. Do you have any answers to them?
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