Addiction is a disease

[jeff77]

jeff77

A disease has cause (heroin, meth, nicotine).
Causes bodily internal harm. (Kills brain cells, liver, lungs etc.)
Is treatable (medication, therapy etc)

These three things fall within the medical difinition of a disease. Not opinion, but medical terms, drug addiction falls under these three criteria.

Also, nobody wants to address the PFC and ofc which is at the core of clinical addiction.

We have an oportuniy to help people with addiction. Im not talking abuse, im talking addiction. As I said, there aren't enough resources to help many who suffer with addiction.

If we can't change the stigma on addiction and get these people the help they desperately need, then I'm open to any viable ideas you have. And worth repeating, my agendacis clear. I, and many others want healthcare to cover drug addiction. We want state and federal dollars spent on rehabs and other needed resources.

I'm open. Give me suggestions with proof to take to our state senators that they will be able to get us the help we need. By the way, we have already changed on law in Michigan for addicts. We kinda know what we are doing.

Or, do I pull out?

I have been praying about this. About what we can do to help people with addiction. Back during the summer you had started a thread about a new addiction ministry that you were starting. At around that same time I was also trying to start one and at my church and was studying and researching the non-disease point of view so I would have some ideas to present to the pastor at our church. I remember thinking that we could exchange ideas with each other even though we have different POV's, I did not say much in depth in that thread because I didn't want to be in opposition to what our main goal is (helping addicts) and figured that the Lord will work that out somehow?

I do not remember a lot of the scientific stuff that I read that I believe makes sense to support the non-disease model. I would have to go look it up. I go more on personal experience, but there is also a problem with that as far as showing proof for either side because you have testimonies from very sincere people that will say that they still struggle even after many years. There were some statistics about the success rate of 12 step rehabs and programs that focus on the disease model vs. ones that don't that showed higher for the later. I am not sure how accurate those statistics are and how many non-disease model programs are out there except for Teen Challenge. I had recently read "The Cross and The Switchblade" that has the story of David Wilkerson in it. I don't remember the book going into whether addiction is a disease or not, but the testimonies and information I read on the Teen Challenge web-site seemed to strongly oppose it and had a high success rate.

I don't know what your opinion of Teen Challenge is? I haven't fully studied up on what their approach is except that their program is at least a year long and of course is Christian based. Some of the testimonies I read said that they don't consider the residents at teen challenge to be "patients".

I know I didn't respond to everything you posted, let me get back later.

 

[stovebolts]

Teen challenge is awesome and has great results. Two people that have agreed to be part of the teen ministry I started went through teen challenge. I can't rave enough about that program. Both people disagree with calling addiction a disease because teen challenge teaches addiction as sin.

I'm OK with that, and at the root, I agree. However, your not going to get far changing healthcare laws let alone federal dollars without calling this sin a disease and backing it up with scientific studies and fact.

If you are really interested, you would be extremely satisfied with reading the book I posted at the beginning of this op. It has been an eye opener for me and it gives me the data needed to start pushing for state and federal changes.

Honestly, not everyone is going to go to teen challenge... And not everyone is open to the gospel. That doesn't mean we don't try to help them from an angle they will relate to.

 

[stovebolts]

BTW, I read the cross and the switchblade whin I was 13 in juvenile....

 

[turnorburn]

Healthcare laws and federal dollars at what cost, we can't tell these people that their government has the cure.. My doctor saw God perform a miracle in me then suggested i talk to the students at a local high school, it all sounded pretty good until the doctor said "Do you think you can leave God out of it"

tob

 

[jasonc]

Healthcare laws and federal dollars at what cost, we can't tell these people that their government has the cure.. My doctor saw God perform a miracle in me then suggested i talk to the students at a local high school, it all sounded pretty good until the doctor said "Do you think you can leave God out of it"

tob

so then just look em up and place them in prison for life? seriously that aint working. sentencing someone to thirty years for one HIT of pot is a bit overkill! while that isn't common it has has happened.

 

[stovebolts]

At the cost of actually helping people get clean and stay clean.
Statistically, crime is reduced and our jails would not be as full as they are. Not to mention a few families would begin to heal and mothers and fathers would have their hope in their children restored.
Its win win.

 

[jasonc]

my state has some whacky sentences.

 

[turnorburn]

so then just look em up and place them in prison for life? seriously that aint working. sentencing someone to thirty years for one HIT of pot is a bit overkill! while that isn't common it has has happened.

What does this have to do with my statement?

tob

 

[jasonc]

What does this have to do with my statement?

tob

which would prefer? jail for the user, or rehab facilities? I prefer the later. we can if its neutral(that is the key) use that money. besides in prisons YOU the Christians are the guest and have NO right to visit or minister. that isn't a right,unless im mistaken. so the government can stop us from helping them. I have already seen that locally.

they can deny us the right to use churches for that.

 

[Gary]

I've tried to account for that. PFC and ofc. Endorphins and dopamine. Stress, reduced recepticals etc. But you and others didn't want any part of that. To you and others its black and white. Its about individual choice and that's as far as you'll go.

Sorry....

That's because addiction starts with the individual making a choice. One cannot become addicted to a substance like nicotine, heroin or alcohol until the individual actually makes these things a part of their life. One cannot become addicted to nicotine unless they smoke or a heroin addict unless they use the drug.

Personal choice.

You should watch that video I posted.
.

 

[Christ_empowered]

jeff, I think, posted about teen challenge...

...I went at age 24-25. I was still young-ish for that program, at that time. Some were barely adults (this was one for adults), some were middle-aged, etc. etc.

I'm not the best person to ask about it, because my problems by then were more psychiatric than substance abuse related, but...it can be effective. Lots of dudes left or were made to leave ("dismissed"), and there were lots of staff-staff and staff-student (that's what they call the dudes..."students"...when you "graduate," you even get a certificate) problems. I think a lot of the staff are underpaid former students :-(

For me, the highlights were when I was on the choir, going around GA with some other dudes talking about our lives and singing. It was good times, trust me.

Also, sometimes the higher ups of TC would visit and minister to us. That was much appreciated. Some of them were quite well-educated and insightful, so it added a cerrtain...something...to the program, for me at least. Every TC is different. Some have problems, like embezzlement and stuff, but probably nothing that any jail or private facility doesn't have.

 

[Kathi]

That's because addiction starts with the individual making a choice. One cannot become addicted to a substance like nicotine, heroin or alcohol until the individual actually makes these things a part of their life. One cannot become addicted to nicotine unless they smoke or a heroin addict unless they use the drug.

Personal choice.

You should watch that video I posted.
.

Why do they make that choice?Why do they need it?

 

[stovebolts]

Why do they make that choice?Why do they need it?

Funny, I was talking to a guy just abit ago and his girlfriend is on vicoden. She hates it. Can't stand it.
What's so different about her? And why do some people seek vicoden?

 

[Gary]

Why do they make that choice?

Why did you choose to start smoking? My reason for choosing smokes is completely different from yours.

Who really knows why people make the choices they do when it comes to addictive substances.

Why do they need it?

In the beginning they don't need it. Did you need that very first cigarette you ever smoked? I didn't. But after awhile that cigarette becomes a part of your life, much like drugs to an addict.
.

 

[Gary]

Funny, I was talking to a guy just abit ago and his girlfriend is on vicoden. She hates it. Can't stand it.
What's so different about her? And why do some people seek vicoden?

Because they like the high.
.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Sometimes, I think we should go all Szasz and legalize everything. I'd take it a step further and say regulate it, tax is, make drugs available all over the places, and control the delivery form (ex: tablets that can't be coverted into injections, to reduce the spread of blood borne illnesses).

Cuz my big problem is that we've declared Some drugs bad and some A-ok. Szasz's example is this: you have amphetamine tabs on you, no Rx. You're a criminal. You have a bottle full of amphetamine tabs, by Rx. You're A-OK and your insurance company may well cover your "medication."

Plus...ever been to rehab? OK. They may not put you on fun drugs, but they'll put you on drugs, alright. 4 in my case. You'll be slapped with labels. Your whole life story will be analyzed. You'll be considered a junky for life. "Oh, poor thing...can't help it...he's an addict." Cruel compassion. See where I'm going with this/

 

[Kathi]

Funny, I was talking to a guy just abit ago and his girlfriend is on vicoden. She hates it. Can't stand it.
What's so different about her? And why do some people seek vicoden?

Is she taking it for pain or addicted to it?It is like smoking that first cigarette.You discover....I feel better,you like the high.My anxiety or stress is gone.Or you have that first drink and you notice it numbs the horrible feeling you had inside.Well,what is that horrible feeling?A mental illness?Many people like that cup of coffee when they wake up.It starts there day but many rely on one cup of coffee after another.Why do they have to have that stimulation?Why do they have to drink 10 cups of coffee a day?Do they know what is going to happen if they go cold turkey off that coffee?Instead of admitting that underneath all of that addiction there is a serious problem.Maybe you know deep down inside but do not want to admit it.You are in denial.Along with that comes a whole lot of prayer for God to guide you and direct you.But if you are in denial how is God going to help you?

 

[jeff77]

Teen challenge is awesome and has great results. Two people that have agreed to be part of the teen ministry I started went through teen challenge. I can't rave enough about that program. Both people disagree with calling addiction a disease because teen challenge teaches addiction as sin.

I'm OK with that, and at the root, I agree. However, your not going to get far changing healthcare laws let alone federal dollars without calling this sin a disease and backing it up with scientific studies and fact.

If you are really interested, you would be extremely satisfied with reading the book I posted at the beginning of this op. It has been an eye opener for me and it gives me the data needed to start pushing for state and federal changes.

Honestly, not everyone is going to go to teen challenge... And not everyone is open to the gospel. That doesn't mean we don't try to help them from an angle they will relate to.

Hi, I'm up late and wide awake thinking about this. I decided that I should read the book, it couldn't hurt to see what it has to say.

Here is a description of the ministry that I have talked about with the pastor and associate pastor at the church I attend.

It will be called a Bible study that meets on weekdays in the evening. It will be open to anyone including non Christians. It won't be a 12 step program for several reasons. One reason is because step 1 says "We were powerless over addiction and our lives had become unmanageable" I think that repeating "I am powerless over my addiction" is self-defeating and even if will power only plays a small part in recovery, that statement doesn't help. Step 2 says "We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" It is not the higher power instead of God that I disagree with, it's the word sanity as it relates to a disease of the brain. Step 3 "We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him". Having steps 2 and 3 don't make sense to me? For the people in the group that are Christians they have already done those steps, for the non-Christians it puts them in a position of having to be saved even if they are not ready. This seems like it would be difficult for the non-Christians to advance through the steps since they could not get pasted step 2 if it was not their time to be saved. Even though the steps give God the credit, it says somewhere in the Big Book or Basic Text that "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path, those are the ones who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program". To me that says that it is not God but the program that you must completely give to. Over all it looks more like a religious system of morals instead of a relationship with Christ.

So, for the material we were thinking of using a book called "Freedom From Addiction" by Ken Karsacony. We would read through the book and discuss it each time we meet, the leaders and others can share a testimony, we can give our phone numbers and encourage them to call whenever they want kind of like a sponsor but, also place importance of relying on Jesus through prayer as well, because he is the best sponsor. If an addict needs to go to detox, we can make that work. Eventually we would hope that by staying clean/sober and building their relationship with Christ that they will become more like the new creation and the cravings will dissipate. Also when they feel they are ready we would suggest that they start going to one of the many other Bible study classes that are at the church where the focus is not about addiction but, Christian fellowship in general. Hopefully at some time they can remove the label of "addict" and it will be a thing of the past.

 

[jeff77]

jeff, I think, posted about teen challenge...

...I went at age 24-25. I was still young-ish for that program, at that time. Some were barely adults (this was one for adults), some were middle-aged, etc. etc.

I'm not the best person to ask about it, because my problems by then were more psychiatric than substance abuse related, but...it can be effective. Lots of dudes left or were made to leave ("dismissed"), and there were lots of staff-staff and staff-student (that's what they call the dudes..."students"...when you "graduate," you even get a certificate) problems. I think a lot of the staff are underpaid former students :-(

For me, the highlights were when I was on the choir, going around GA with some other dudes talking about our lives and singing. It was good times, trust me.

Also, sometimes the higher ups of TC would visit and minister to us. That was much appreciated. Some of them were quite well-educated and insightful, so it added a cerrtain...something...to the program, for me at least. Every TC is different. Some have problems, like embezzlement and stuff, but probably nothing that any jail or private facility doesn't have.

Christ_empowered if you remember, can you tell us what the Bible studies were about as it related to addiction? I know your issue was more psychiatric, but do you remember what their advice was for addicts once they left the program? Were some kind of addiction meetings suggested or was it more like "you have been set free, now go and live a normal life?"

 

[Christ_empowered]

There was a lot of Hellfire and Brimstone preaching, lol. That much I remember. That and that addiction is a sin issue ("life controlling behavior"), not a disease.