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The difference in the rapture and the second coming
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
Reba go back to my many,many posts in the end times.No one gets anywhere.It is just too redundant.
jasonc
Member
she is asking does it say specifically where the church in that book is removed? no it doesn't.
Deborah13
Member
The problem is Kathi is that it does not say, "Christians will be caught up into the air before a great tribulation starts on the earth." That statement is an interpretation of verses put together, from different locations in the Bible.
If the Bible said, "All believers will be caught up off the earth before a great seven yrs tribulation starts." Then there would not be anything left to interpret as far as that goes. But it doesn't.
D
Donovb
Guest
The problem with the pre-trib theory is that they cherry-pick verses here and there and put it together into some secret rapture that the Bible doesn't even mention. If a pre-trib rapture is yet to come as significant as it is, wouldnt it be in Revelation? Revelation 4:1 is not the Rapture clearly, theres not descending in the clouds, the dead are not called up, no trumpet, it says his voice is as sound of a trumpet, and only one person went up, and he went up in spirit. When John Goes up Jesus is at the right hand side of God so he didn't descend. And when Jesus comes back everybody sees him as clearly stated in the Bible. When we go up in the real rapture we will go up in our bodily form than glorified once we go up, and the spirits(people that have died on Earth) that currently reside in Heaven will be reunited with their Bodies than their bodies will be Glorified. Where do you read any of this in Revelation before the Anti-Christ comes?
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Malachi
Member
Donovb, it is clear from this statement that you have swallowed the propaganda against a pre-tribulation Rapture hook, line and sinker. Have you done your own personal due diligence in the Word, and are you aware that bringing relevant Scriptures together to bear upon a subject is not "cherry picking"? Also, there are only a few Scriptures that pertain to the Rapture.
Not at all. There are two major sections in Revelation: (1) the letters to individual churches, and (2) the unfolding of events which are PRIMARILY JUDGMENTS until the second coming of Christ.
The Rapture pertains to the Church, not the judgments which are to come upon the unbelieving world. Some tried to prove the Rapture from Rev 14 and could not do so without doing violence to Scripture.
This verse should not be applied to the Rapture, although some have done violence to Scripture by doing so. That in itself does not invalidate a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Now you yourself have brought out the rationale for a pre-tribulation Rapture. When "everybody sees Him clearly" He is descending with the saints. So how and when did they go up to be with Him at His descent?
You don't and you shouldn't. YOU WILL NOT FIND THE RAPTURE IN REVELATION, and that is the clearest confirmation that it is a pre-tribulation Rapture. From Rev 6:12 through 19:21 you have the 6th and 7th seal judgments (the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation) followed by the second coming of Christ WITH His saints.
D
Donovb
Guest
Are you calling the 7 seals Gods judgements because its clearly not, why when the 5th seal was opened the spirits under the alter asked Jesus how much longer until he cast out his judgements and he told them to wait a small season. So this right here tells us the seals are not Gods judgement. Also if you read the 7th seal is the rapture which is before Gods judgement which is clearly stated in Revelation. I would like to know what scripture you use that has literal scripture that has anything associated with a pre-trib secret rapture. God Bless.
Malachi
Member
You might want to go back to Revelation and read it through carefully from chapters 5 through 19, and then revise that statement. Also, if you check, back I mentioned the 6th and 7th seals, not the 5th.
We can talk about the "secret" (conspiratorial???) Rapture, once you are thoroughly convinced that the book of Revelation has nothing to say about the Rapture. I trust you will let all readers know your conclusions after your research.
D
Donovb
Guest
That's why I asked, where is your scripture for a pre-trib before the Book of Revelation. Ive looked for literal scripture but I just don't see. What did Jesus say when the apostles asked him what would be the signs of his return and he gave them literally. So I guess what Im asking is where in scripture before the Book of Revelation where Jesus says literally that he's coming back before the Tribulation.
Look back to post #1.
Deborah13
Member
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
When? It doesn't say.
Where shall we always be with the Lord? It doesn't say. It just says that wherever He is we will be also.
Which verse/s answers these questions of when and where?
Malachi
Member
Since the book of Revelation consists of the words of Christ and the Holy Spirit, by excluding the Rapture from the Revelation, He tells you to draw your own conclusions. If the Rapture is excluded from that book (which primarily describes God's judgments) what should be the conclusion?
I already mentioned this but you missed it. If Christ descends with His saints in Revelation, how did they get to Heaven in order to descend with Him? Give it some thought and draw your own conclusions.
Gregg
Member
You were answering to Malachi, but I must say that there are no Scriptures that indicate a rapture will occur more than 10-15 days before Christ's Second Coming.
In some future year, 20XX, and in month of Tishrei [the 7th month of the Hebrew year]:
1st day - Trumpets . . . the Rapture
10th day - Atonement . . . The LORD's destruction of Israel's enemies, our return with Him
15th Day - Feast of Booths/Tabernacles . . . the LORD Jesus Christ sets foot on the Temple mount and takes His seat there
10th day - Atonement . . . The LORD's destruction of Israel's enemies, our return with Him
15th Day - Feast of Booths/Tabernacles . . . the LORD Jesus Christ sets foot on the Temple mount and takes His seat there
D
Donovb
Guest
So Miss Kathi you assume that' it's pre-trib, that scripture sounds a awfully like what's happening in Revelation 7. And I seen nothing to indicate this happens literally right before the tribulation, unless he does the EXACT thing twice?
D
Donovb
Guest
With the other saints that have died over the years, are we going to be the first in Heaven? There should a ton of saints in Heaven right now, am I wrong?
You and several do not see it.Multiple questions are asked.It has been explained a bunch of times.It gets redundant.It is a broken record.
Deborah13
Member
Now this I can see and consider. I believe from what has occurred in the past on the feasts, we can be confident that His return will be the same during this feast. I can see how Trumpets could be the rapture/resurrection. A day of rejoicing.
Malachi
Member
Not the first but the third Heaven (2 Cor 12:2). Yes there are countless saints in Heaven right now. What will happen on the day of the Rapture is that the bodies of these saints will be resurrected and glorified, and their souls and spirits brought from Heaven will be joined to them. These saints will return with Christ along with the ones who are alive at His coming, who are also transformed into perfect glorified saints (John 14:1-3;1 Cor 15:35-57; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Jn 3:1-3).
None of this will be seen by the world, so if you want to call it "secret", or "hidden from sinners", or "exclusively for the Church", you can pick whatever terminology suits you. The fact of the matter is that this event IS NOT FOUND IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION.
Malachi,Will we ride in on White horses with Christ at the Second Coming?I think Revelation says that somewhere.
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Malachi
Member
Two very major hurdles to this hypothesis are:
1. 10-15 days before Christ's second coming we see the wrath of God being poured out upon political and religious "Babylon" (the world systems under the control of the Antichrist). "She shall be utterly burned with fire" (Rev 18:8) because of "the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev 18:3). There is not even a hint that anything wonderful and glorious is happening for the Church at this time. In fact the word "church is absent".
2. 10-15 days before the second coming of Christ is the period of the seven last plagues -- the vials of the wrath of God (Rev 15-17). Once again there is absolutely no indication of anything happening connected with the Rapture.
We can take the Jewish feasts and work out elaborate hypotheses around them, but you will notice there there is no mention in Revelation of Jewish feasts in connection with the events outline in the 6th and 7th seal judgments. Therefore we are back to the pre-tribulation Rapture.
What amazes me is the lengths to which some Christians will go to avoid the fact of a pre-tribulation Rapture. It goes back to the false teachings of Preterism which must be held at all costs "to save face", since the majority of denominations and theologians adopted these to allow the Catholic Church to save itself the embarrassment of having the pope identified as the Antichrist by the Reformers.
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