David Copperfield

[Gary]

The only description, that I know of and trust, of demon possession are the ones in the scripture.

Okay.

.

 

[KevinK]

Are you?

Yes.

 

[Gary]

Yes.

Cool.

 

[KevinK]

Cool.

Thank you, my friend.

 

[Northman]

Christians would watch a magician that they believe are using demons to be educated about what?
What opportunities?

The opportunities part is easiest to answer so i will address that first. I am of the opinion(and that may be all it is) that any unbeliever who is interested in or what i like to call "attuned" to things spiritual in nature are much more willing to accept who Jesus is. They are already aware of powers in our universe that can do things that are not natural. Once they see that there is a power(God's) that has dominion over all others, well, it makes dialogue much more profitable. I would like to point out something i know you already know...when it comes to what real magic is, most of that stuff is highly guarded and although no evil spirit can stand against the Holy Spirit that dwells in us the chances of seeing the actual practitioners is extremely slim. The doors are often guarded by the mortal and decieved, who have no problem taking the life of any individual looking to cause problems or enter unwelcome.

As for education. Often the most difficult part. This is mostly because of the desire to share discoveries and things learned on how to identify wether it is truly the enemy that is being faced or rather some hopeful imitator. Those bearing this sort of information usually arent too welcome by their own bretheren. I cant say exactly why but one can make a pretty solid educated guess. Things get said out of fear and arrogance, people get uncomfortable. It boggles my mind that there are believers that hold council for many on a great many and dark things, mosty from experience and other learning. Yet when it concerns the powers of darkness on this avenue, its brushed off.

What it ultimately comes down to is that there is a war going on, a war for souls. Someone knowing their enemy on this front is no different than someone who knows him on another.

 

[Deborah13]

The opportunities part is easiest to answer so i will address that first. I am of the opinion(and that may be all it is) that any unbeliever who is interested in or what i like to call "attuned" to things spiritual in nature are much more willing to accept who Jesus is. They are already aware of powers in our universe that can do things that are not natural. Once they see that there is a power(God's) that has dominion over all others, well, it makes dialogue much more profitable. I would like to point out something i know you already know...when it comes to what real magic is, most of that stuff is highly guarded and although no evil spirit can stand against the Holy Spirit that dwells in us the chances of seeing the actual practitioners is extremely slim. The doors are often guarded by the mortal and decieved, who have no problem taking the life of any individual looking to cause problems or enter unwelcome.

As for education. Often the most difficult part. This is mostly because of the desire to share discoveries and things learned on how to identify wether it is truly the enemy that is being faced or rather some hopeful imitator. Those bearing this sort of information usually arent too welcome by their own bretheren. I cant say exactly why but one can make a pretty solid educated guess. Things get said out of fear and arrogance, people get uncomfortable. It boggles my mind that there are believers that hold council for many on a great many and dark things, mosty from experience and other learning. Yet when it concerns the powers of darkness on this avenue, its brushed off.

What it ultimately comes down to is that there is a war going on, a war for souls. Someone knowing their enemy on this front is no different than someone who knows him on another.

I think I understood your reasoning.

I think that because the powers of darkness (demons, satan) are very real, there is a danger in mixing up what is real and what it fake.
I lean towards fake with illusionists because almost all illusions are eventually explained and it wasn't by supernatural powers.

 

[KevinK]

This thread has been enlightening to me in that there's people who believe that entertainment magic is real (i.e. based on paranormal phenomena). Just because you don't personally have a logical explanation for something, doesn't make it real magic.

Here's the Masked Magician showing how to walk on water. What can be done in a pool can be done in a river. Simple.

 

[KevinK]

Check out this impromptu performance by magician James Randi (The Amazing Randi. I've actually seen him perform live.) This one is peculiar to me as I don't know how it's done. However the commentary he makes at the end is the real lesson. Just because I as a scientist don't have an explanation, does not mean I believe Randi can actually read minds. It's a trick, and he states that it is.

I must also add that I'm not saying that mind-reading is impossible. I'm just saying that psychic ability is not the basis for this specific performance.

 

[Northman]

I lean towards fake with illusionists because almost all illusions are eventually explained and it wasn't by supernatural powers.

Completely agree.

The only thing id say is that some modern illusionists are blurring the lines. I think this is designed. Just as there was a design to get more sex on TV.

 

[Karl]

This thread isn't about demons. I'm not going to fall for the sidetrack. Hiding behind a holy Scripture is bad enough.

A rhetorical question by definition has no answer. If anything, that quotation is a loaded question, i.e. one which assumes an answer. It's still a logical fail. You're saying that people can't walk over hot coals without burning? Before you said they could, and brought up a specific example, but it was a question whether this was a paranormal or a scientific phenomenon. You're just contradicting yourself.

Some folks fall to hell. Others dig their way.

Thank you for proving my point!

You're saying that people can't walk over hot coals without burning? Before you said they could, and brought up a specific example, but it was a question whether this was a paranormal or a scientific phenomenon.

You're slightly mistaken, I didn't say people can't walk over hot coals without being burned, ...GOD did!

Voilà, ...if GOD says they can't (defy the laws of physics), but they do, then there has to be another supernatural force at work to accomplish it, ...it's that simple.

I asked you about demons because I live in a very dark country where demonic manifestations are common things, ...even in the professing church, what you try to explain away as science, they give credit to the demons, ...ain't no doubt in their minds where the power comes from.

Sorry bro, but you live in a very protected environment, but....., it looks like God is starting to remove His protection, I highly suggest you be ready when it's gone because trying to explain to a sorcerer how he is accomplishing his magic scientifically won't work, ...remember the seven sons of Sceva. Acts 19:14-16

Blessings

 

[jasonc]

to expect the world not to want to sex, blood and witchcraft on entertainment is to really ignore what has always been the nature of the world. Shakespeare has all that in his plays, just not as vulgar as today but its there.

 

[Karl]

Well, I learned that demon possession doesn't automatically equate to someone being a raving lunatic.

Exactly, just look at Judas, not a lunatic or any manifestation of deranged behavior, in fact he was the most educated of the 12 disciples, ...but possessed by satan.

 

[Gary]

Can these things be explained away?

 

[KevinK]

Thank you for proving my point!

You're saying that people can't walk over hot coals without burning? Before you said they could, and brought up a specific example, but it was a question whether this was a paranormal or a scientific phenomenon.

You're slightly mistaken, I didn't say people can't walk over hot coals without being burned, ...GOD did!

Voilà, ...if GOD says they can't (defy the laws of physics), but they do, then there has to be another supernatural force at work to accomplish it, ...it's that simple.

I asked you about demons because I live in a very dark country where demonic manifestations are common things, ...even in the professing church, what you try to explain away as science, they give credit to the demons, ...ain't no doubt in their minds where the power comes from.

Sorry bro, but you live in a very protected environment, but....., it looks like God is starting to remove His protection, I highly suggest you be ready when it's gone because trying to explain to a sorcerer how he is accomplishing his magic scientifically won't work, ...remember the seven sons of Sceva. Acts 19:14-16

Blessings

Wow, Karl. You were doing so well, then this? We already went over this. That passage you quoted doesn't state anything. It asks a question. A loaded question perhaps, but still a question.

I also already said I'm not going for the demon thing. I'm discussing magic tricks; I'm not discussing demons at the moment, and haven't made any statements whether they are real or not. Look up "Straw man" arguments.

I've managed to explain several magic illusions, even though I'm not personally a magician. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. I'm not even going to bother with the clip you just posted. You're just not listening, and are simply scrambling for dignity after losing an argument.

 

[KevinK]

By the way, now that you name-drop. We all have to face the Lord one day. You can't hide your duplicity from Him. Do you think He'd be happy with the way you're behaving right now? You don't have to answer to me. With Him it's a different story. It's just not worth it, Bro. Think of the consequences.

I'm done.

 

[jasonc]

ok then. I don't care much for magician shows. just that I don't think they all are demon possessed. an ancient Christian would think tv, the internet, cell phones and video(snap chat) chatting is all of the devil.

 

[Karl]

Wow, Karl. You were doing so well, then this? We already went over this. That passage you quoted doesn't state anything. It asks a question. A loaded question perhaps, but still a question.

I also already said I'm not going for the demon thing. I'm discussing magic tricks; I'm not discussing demons at the moment, and haven't made any statements whether they are real or not. Look up "Straw man" arguments.

I've managed to explain several magic illusions, even though I'm not personally a magician. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. I'm not even going to bother with the clip you just posted. You're just not listening, and are simply scrambling for dignity after losing an argument.

What clip???

Who's scrambling and who's arguing, I'm just telling how it is where I live, please forgive me if you can't live with that, ...it's reality here.

 

[Northman]

to expect the world not to want to sex, blood and witchcraft on entertainment is to really ignore what has always been the nature of the world. Shakespeare has all that in his plays, just not as vulgar as today but its there.

I dont think anyone is going to deny that. When i spoke it wasnt for the world, it was for us. There have been some fundamental changes that have happened and are happening in this entire magic type category. Not absolute changes, just deceptions.

Lets grab something specific. You see post 168. Kevin talks about psychic ability. Now we know what that truly is and there was a time when we had so much influence in the lands which we reside that everyone else knew it too. There was a simple twisting of something. Worldly people are being led to believe that something like psychic ability is just that, an ability. As in the person who portrays to do it is master and commander of it, as if its something they were born with or somehow it was activated. No longer will anyone be heard saying "youre in league with Lucifer" or anything like that.

While this is not entirely a new concept, its like wildfire now.

 

[jasonc]

I dont think anyone is going to deny that. When i spoke it wasnt for the world, it was for us. There have been some fundamental changes that have happened and are happening in this entire magic type category. Not absolute changes, just deceptions.

Lets grab something specific. You see post 168. Kevin talks about psychic ability. Now we know what that truly is and there was a time when we had so much influence in the lands which we reside that everyone else knew it too. There was a simple twisting of something. Worldly people are being led to believe that something like psychic ability is just that, an ability. As in the person who portrays to do it is master and commander of it, as if its something they were born with or somehow it was activated. No longer will anyone be heard saying "youre in league with Lucifer" or anything like that.

While this is not entirely a new concept, its like wildfire now.

that isn't new, I was trying to be one of those with special abilities. its wasn't that long ago but yes it was laughed at for a while in the north Americas for sure until recently. but again its not new, just coming back from its hibernation in Europa and the Americas(native americans did it long before the Europeans came).

I don't give any credence to anyone with mind reading abilities anymore and that is coming from one who claimed to have and telepathy and also a type of astral projection.

 

[KevinK]

What clip???

Who's scrambling and who's arguing, I'm just telling how it is where I live, please forgive me if you can't live with that, ...it's reality here.

Oops, sorry, that is my mistake. Gary posted the clip. My apologies.

My concentration is faulty sometimes. I do have a brain injury.