A Statement From A Recently Turned Non-Christian

[OzSpen]

That wasn't the first time I've seen that statement, this guy is just some guy with some ideas that i don't agree with, the one about Judas is just one, if there's one then it stands to reason there are probably others, this idea disagrees with scripture, therefore i disagree with him..

tob

tob,

Do you see what you are doing? Your reply here does not deal with the matter I raised about your Wikipedia source and Papias. Therefore, you are using a red herring logical fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you use a logical fallacy.

If you continue with this approach, I will not respond any further.

Oz

 

[Inviolable]

Jesus calls a true Christian, someone who feels the Spirit and talks in tongues. If you have never felt the joy of the Lord, it doesnt mean you're not a Christian but should be seeking the helper.

 

[Inviolable]

Flavian Roman Dynasty created the Gospels which started as a satirical work as well as a pacification psychological operation.

Dude, your story is a satirical work. You sure you were saved 22 years ago? Because you sound like a confused college kid.
You some how find a book and all of a sudden the mysteries of life are opened up to you.
And before you get all "bibally" on me and tell me how reading the bible changed me or every other Christian on the planet, I'm going to have to stop you there and say, nahnt uh! I really don't like reading the bible and 90% of the christians who live and breath on the planet today didn't know what the bible said before they became Christian.
It's a fact sir/ma'am, that secularist change their mind over a life altering event and usually convert to Christianity over said life altering event. The bible had nothing to do with their transformation from secularist to Christian. The bible is for after you make the big leap, its a teaching tool on how to get closer to Jesus and most Christians don't read it until after they are a Christian. Some putz will probably pop in here and say, "I converted after reading the bible" but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong, it just means that that person is a 10%'er.
Most of your converts are people who have been dumped, lost loved ones, getting over a drug addiction or making an effort to improve their lives and on top of having to go through the troubles of losing a loved one or having a drug problem, they still have to be convinced that Christianity is best for them. People don't just randomly jump into Christianity unless they're totally not serious about it. People don't just randomly jump into anything unless they're totally not serious about it.
And you sound totally like you randomly jumped into some stuff after reading some books or book about some ancient roman crap.
Which doesn't make any sense.

Common sense would say, you're a complete idiot or you had motives before this book or books smothered your common sense and you became a secularist.
Relax, bruh. Jesus would be honest with you to.

And to be honest, I wanted to get in here some where that the Hebrews committed scripture to memory. They didn't write it down, it was passed on as spoken word. They didn't write any of it down until after the romans kicked them out of Israel in 70 A.D.
And when I say they committed it to memory, they spent their entire lives until adult hood and actually beyond, remembering what they were to pass on. They would wake up, remember stuff all day long, go to sleep and repeat the cycle the next day.
But when so many Jewish people died or committed suicide in 70 A.D., the survivors decided to write stuff down because they were running out of individuals who knew stuff.
I wanted to get that in because in a round about way, it seemed like what you wanted to discuss? or were you looking forward to someone discussing the books you read? I'm not reading the books.

 

[Obadiah]

Jesus calls a true Christian, someone who feels the Spirit and talks in tongues. If you have never felt the joy of the Lord, it doesnt mean you're not a Christian but should be seeking the helper.

Exactly where (chapter and verse reference) does Jesus say if a person doesn't talk in tongues they aren't a true Christian?

 

[Obadiah]

Dude, your story is a satirical work. You sure you were saved 22 years ago? Because you sound like a confused college kid.
You some how find a book and all of a sudden the mysteries of life are opened up to you.
And before you get all "bibally" on me and tell me how reading the bible changed me or every other Christian on the planet, I'm going to have to stop you there and say, nahnt uh! I really don't like reading the bible and 90% of the christians who live and breath on the planet today didn't know what the bible said before they became Christian.
It's a fact sir/ma'am, that secularist change their mind over a life altering event and usually convert to Christianity over said life altering event. The bible had nothing to do with their transformation from secularist to Christian. The bible is for after you make the big leap, its a teaching tool on how to get closer to Jesus and most Christians don't read it until after they are a Christian. Some putz will probably pop in here and say, "I converted after reading the bible" but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong, it just means that that person is a 10%'er.
Most of your converts are people who have been dumped, lost loved ones, getting over a drug addiction or making an effort to improve their lives and on top of having to go through the troubles of losing a loved one or having a drug problem, they still have to be convinced that Christianity is best for them. People don't just randomly jump into Christianity unless they're totally not serious about it. People don't just randomly jump into anything unless they're totally not serious about it.
And you sound totally like you randomly jumped into some stuff after reading some books or book about some ancient roman crap.
Which doesn't make any sense.

Common sense would say, you're a complete idiot or you had motives before this book or books smothered your common sense and you became a secularist.
Relax, bruh. Jesus would be honest with you to.

And to be honest, I wanted to get in here some where that the Hebrews committed scripture to memory. They didn't write it down, it was passed on as spoken word. They didn't write any of it down until after the romans kicked them out of Israel in 70 A.D.
And when I say they committed it to memory, they spent their entire lives until adult hood and actually beyond, remembering what they were to pass on. They would wake up, remember stuff all day long, go to sleep and repeat the cycle the next day.
But when so many Jewish people died or committed suicide in 70 A.D., the survivors decided to write stuff down because they were running out of individuals who knew stuff.
I wanted to get that in because in a round about way, it seemed like what you wanted to discuss? or were you looking forward to someone discussing the books you read? I'm not reading the books.

Just so you know why he won't be responding to you, King James hasn't been with us in a long time and probably won't be returning.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus calls a true Christian, someone who feels the Spirit and talks in tongues. If you have never felt the joy of the Lord, it doesnt mean you're not a Christian but should be seeking the helper.

Do you believe that a person must speak in tongues to be saved? That's not what it says in Acts 16:31 (ESV), 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household'. No tongues mentioned there.

Romans 10:9-11 (ESV) does not support the requirement to speak in tongues to be called a true Christian.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that a person must speak in tongues to be saved? That's not what it says in Acts 16:31 (ESV), 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household'. No tongues mentioned there.

These are the signs that follow those who believe, (are committed).

In My name, they will cast out devils, and speak in new tongues...


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

These are the signs that follow those who believe, (are committed).

In My name, they will cast out devils, and speak in new tongues...

JLB

JLB,

That verse is from Mark 16:17 (ESV), which I note that you didn't reference. Are you aware that some of the earliest manuscripts (MSS) do not include Mark 16:9-20 (ESV)?

I consider that this long ending of Mark's Gospel teaches false doctrine. It seems to have an apocryphal flavour. This false doctrine includes:

1. Baptismal regeneration (Mk 16:16 ESV);
2. Works salvation (signs of casting out demons & speaking in tongues) [16:17];
3. Picking up serpents with their hands and drinking deadly poison will not hurt people (16:18).
4. ‘They will lay their hands on the sick and they will recover’ (16:18). We know that there is no guarantee that laying hands on the sick will lead to recovery from sickness. That is the Lord’s sovereign work.

There are 4 different endings in the Greek manuscripts from v 9ff. The earliest MSS such as Sinaiticus do not include the long ending of Mark. Which one do you support and why?

The long ending, Jerome told us, was in Greek copies in his day.

There are 17 non-Markan words in Mk 16:9ff (ESV) and the lack of a smooth transition from 16:8-16:9 indicates that there are features in vv 9ff that were added by someone who knew something of a form of Mark’s Gospel that ended abruptly at 16:8 and he/she wanted a smoother conclusion.

There is an Armenian MSS of the Gospels copied about AD 989 that contains 2 words at the end of v 8 and before vv 9-20. They are Aristion eritsou (‘of the Presbyter Aristion’). Some have interpreted this to refer to Aristion, a contemporary of Papias in the early 2nd century. Papias has been traditionally understood to be a disciple of the Apostle John (this information from Bruce Metzger 1991:227). Could it be that Aristion added these words?

So there are a number of reasons why I reject Mark 16:9-20 (ESV) as being in the original text.

Oz

Works consulted
Metzger, B M 1992. The text of the New Testament. New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press.

 

[Inviolable]

Exactly where (chapter and verse reference) does Jesus say if a person doesn't talk in tongues they aren't a true Christian?

I didn't say they weren't true Christians if they dont speak in tongues, just that Jesus said they were true Christians if they did.
Qhat I said is, that they need to be looking for the "helper". In other words, you should be working to find the Holy Spirit, but as a Christian thats a given.
I myself have never spoken in tongues, but I have been overwhelmed by the Spirit.

Do you believe that a person must speak in tongues to be saved? That's not what it says in Acts 16:31 (ESV), 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household'. No tongues mentioned there.

Romans 10:9-11 (ESV) does not support the requirement to speak in tongues to be called a true Christian.

Oz

Nope, I most certainly do not think that a person needs to talk in tongues to be saved. I do very strongly believe that they have to be baptised in the Spirit to be saved. In the "Spirit" and not in water. However I do believe a person should make their salvation public by being baptised in water.

Exactly where (chapter and verse reference) does Jesus say if a person doesn't talk in tongues they aren't a true Christian?

Do you believe that a person must speak in tongues to be saved? That's not what it says in Acts 16:31 (ESV), 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household'. No tongues mentioned there.

Romans 10:9-11 (ESV) does not support the requirement to speak in tongues to be called a true Christian.

These are the signs that follow those who believe, (are committed).

In My name, they will cast out devils, and speak in new tongues...


JLB

Oz

Yes, thank you.

Jesus words to us just before he took off to Heaven. I haven't drank any venom but I do believe I have sent demons to the abyss and I do believe that I have control over demons and evil spirits, but only under my Lord Jesus' authority that has been given to me.

 

[OzSpen]

I didn't say they weren't true Christians if they dont speak in tongues, just that Jesus said they were true Christians if they did.

Where does Jesus say that 'true Christians' speak in tongues?

My understanding is that the 'gift of tongues' is a gift given by the Holy Spirit and it requires the gift of interpretation for it to be intelligible (1 Cor 12:10 ESV) and that 'there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.... To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good' (1 Cor 12:4, 7 ESV).

 

[JLB]

That verse is from Mark 16:17 (ESV), which I note that you didn't reference. Are you aware that some of the earliest manuscripts (MSS) do not include Mark 16:9-20 (ESV)?

Says who?

Let me guess.

Someone who doesn't believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost, and at the house of Cornelius?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where does Jesus say that 'true Christians' speak in tongues?

My understanding is that the 'gift of tongues' is a gift given by the Holy Spirit and it requires the gift of interpretation for it to be intelligible (1 Cor 12:10 ESV) and that 'there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.... To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good' (1 Cor 12:4, 7 ESV).

Then there is praying in the Spirit, which is done alone in the prayer closet, for your personal edification, or for intercession. Jude 20

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:14

Having a spiritual prayer language is for everyone.

JLB

 

[Free]

 

[OzSpen]

Says who?

Let me guess.

Someone who doesn't believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost, and at the house of Cornelius?

JLB

Says who? Those who have investigated the Greek manuscripts (MSS) of the NT. There are scholars who have been doing this for centuries and have devoted their lives to it. They have found 4 different endings in MSS for the Book of Mark.

We wouldn't have a NT if it were not for scholars who did the hard work of finding and translating Greek MSS.

I hope one day that you'll learn to appreciate the scholarship that goes into the production of the NT, starting with discovery of MSS which have 4 different endings. You can go to the British Museum an read the Codex Sinaiticus that is one of the earliest MSS available. My son was in London recently for his work and viewed it. He told me that tears rolled down his face as he considered the enormity of this find and its impact on the Greek NT that flows on to our English translations.

I appreciate this scholarship but you don't seem to want to acknowledge it.

Oz

 

[reba]

 

[OzSpen]

Then there is praying in the Spirit, which is done alone in the prayer closet, for your personal edification, or for intercession. Jude 20

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:14

Having a spiritual prayer language is for everyone.

JLB

Jude 1:20 (ESV) may refer to tongues, but that's a deduction and not an induction, based on the text.

It's too bad that you didn't place 1 Cor 14:14 (ESV) in the context of 1 Cor 14:13-19 (ESV) where the emphasis is on intelligibility - see vv 16-19.

 

[Inviolable]

Where does Jesus say that 'true Christians' speak in tongues?

My understanding is that the 'gift of tongues' is a gift given by the Holy Spirit and it requires the gift of interpretation for it to be intelligible (1 Cor 12:10 ESV) and that 'there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.... To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good' (1 Cor 12:4, 7 ESV).

I am sorry. but I did look for it and couldn't find it, although it does exist in one legitimate translation or another.
But you also cant let yourself get carried away in a single passage, which it looks like you're doing.
There are passages that also say that Jesus will help you pray, that the Spirit moans for us in ways we couldn't understand.
There are passages that suggest that if you yourself don't know what to say you can ask the Spirit to say it for you.
Some people here have given you some good examples and while the passage/verse you have shared about being unfruitful is a good passage/verse to use, it's also a prelude to helping people to understand how talking in tongues is helpful, because if you recall, Paul also says that he speaks in tongues more then anyone.
I dont expect to be talking in tongues just before I thump someone in the forehead with the Holy Spirit, and so I've never attempted to thump anyone in the forehead with the Spirit. But I do expect Jesus to get me through the moments he brought me to and maybe Paul is pointing that out in an awkward way because Gods power is simply indescribable some times. That there are moments for showing Gods works through the Spirit and speaking in tongues but knowing when those moments are requires a great deal of faith on the part of the user.

And just because a person has yet to speak in tongues doesn't mean he or she is less a Christian then the next person but maybe their faith is stronger, or strong enough to make them true to the word, where as someone with less faith is still born again but not so close to what the bible says in their faith. It's true with everyone because while your salvation is guarantied through Christ, your faith is what you make it and is different with everyone.

 

[Obadiah]

I am sorry. but I did look for it and couldn't find it, although it does exist in one legitimate translation or another...

Ok, you were asked a question by a couple of us and you have answered it. Thank you. A moderator of this forum asked that we return to the original topic and an administrator seconded that, so why don't we all go ahead and do that now.

 

[Inviolable]

Maybe that is the point of the OP, we are talking about salvation and the OP expressed that he/she lost theirs. And since the OP is not here any more, I say we are right on track.

But, whatever.

 

[OzSpen]

I am sorry. but I did look for it and couldn't find it, although it does exist in one legitimate translation or another.
But you also cant let yourself get carried away in a single passage, which it looks like you're doing.
There are passages that also say that Jesus will help you pray, that the Spirit moans for us in ways we couldn't understand.
There are passages that suggest that if you yourself don't know what to say you can ask the Spirit to say it for you....

I have grown tired of this kind of post where you state:

• 'I did look for it and couldn't find it';
• 'There are passages'.

If you can't find a passage, please don't make a post until you find that passage and state where it can be located. These kinds of nebulous posts do not assist us in discussion.