How Can The U.S.A. Reduse Mass Shootings?

[OzSpen]

so I guess, training in martials arts is a sin.if the laws says you are able to act in your defense , then what is the difference if the law is called in to act? I say nothing.the laws says you must be in danger of life or limb.

some states have laws that will punish if you are able to save life via first aid but fail to act have you been stalked?
I have. my wife's ex husband placed nails in her driveway. the law was never able to catch him.

That's a red herring fallacy. You did not address the issues I raised in #238.

 

[Obadiah]

Obadiah,

Let's examine Rom 12:18 (ESV) in context: 'If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all'.

In Rom 12 we are dealing with living life in presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2), how to demonstrate gifts of grace (Rom 12:3-7) and how to live out the Christian life (Rom 12:8-14). Rom 8:12 is in this latter section that includes 'bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse' (Rom 12:14) and 'repay no one evil for evil' (Rom 12:17).

The close connection of Rom 12:17, Rom 12:18 and Rom 12:19 should be self evident. These 3 verses exhort believers not to engage in behaviour that has a negative impact on them. From v. 17 we learn that 'no one' should be paid evil by us for evil done by them. In v. 18, we are to live peaceably 'with all'. What did Jesus urge upon us according to Matt 5:9, 'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God'?

From the context of Rom 12:18, we don't know the specifics of whether there was a situation in the church of Rome that caused the kind of teaching of Rom 12:18, but 12:14 is clear enough that we should be blessing those who persecute us. Could these Roman believers been experiencing persecution and needed this instruction? Could be!

Jesus made it clear that 'I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world' (John 16:33 ESV). Paul in Rom 12:18 is acknowledging that for the Christian, conflict is not possible to avoid, but he adds this double qualification, 'If possible, so far as it depends on you' - leave peaceably. I, as a believer, have a responsibility to live at peace with those who oppose me.

The application is that Paul is saying that persecution is inevitable but he doesn't want Christians to use this certainty of opposition to them and their faith to be an opportunity for them to engage in behaviour that needlessly inflames the conflict. He doesn't want us to see the unavoidable persecution and opposition as a reason for giving up on a positive witness to those who are opposing us.

It may be impossible for the Christian to live peacefully with all people. Christians may be attacked by evil people for their proclamation of the Gospel, truth and the good. In those circumstances, 'if possible' the Christian is to be a pacifist while he or she may be an activist for Christ and the truth. The Christian is to start no strife or hostility. It is the sinful flesh that initiates discord. Yes, the Christian will become involved when another initiates a brawl.

I cannot see Rom 12:18 being used as justification for opposing a gun wielding person with a gun. The context in Rom 12:14 indicates that the Christian is to 'bless those who persecute you'.

Surely the next verse is a stunning answer to the issues you raise with regard to v. 18, ' Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord”' (Rom 12:19 ESV).

Using a gun is avenging ourselves. God's instruction to us (my paraphrase) is: Don't do it with a gun. Leave vengeance to the Lord. The Lord will repay this retribution.

Oz

And in this is the huge mistake that you and some others in these forums make. You assume we are talking about getting revenge and based most of what you say on this erroneous assumption. We are NOT. I am talking about self defense. Self defense and revenge are NOT the same thing and scripture never tells us we can't defend ourselves. You are very wrong when you say "Using a gun is avenging ourselves." Using a gun is certainly NOT limited to revenge. You say "God's instruction to us (my paraphrase) is: Don't do it with a gun." You have no scriptural basis for inserting a gun into this scripture. That is simply adding something to scripture that is not there and claiming it is the word of God. This is wrong.

 

[smaller]

How does that harmonise with Paul's instructions to Christians? 'If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all' (Rom 12:18 ESV).

If possible can be a big if.

There are an abundance of sights available on the opposite side. Such as:

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

When we recognize that "all" do in fact have "evil present" with them, there is more than ample reason to question everything man does, even ourselves.

 

[th1b.taylor]

How does that harmonise with Paul's instructions to Christians? 'If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all' (Rom 12:18 ESV).

Oz,
AS long as i as legal with my Colt or my S&W on my hip, I never had a single drunk want to destroy my guitar or sound equipment. I never played a single gig behind chicken wire with an escape hatch in the stage floor, no, all of that came with outlawing legal carry. Until legal Open Carry was made illegal to make the imported yankees edited reba I never, in Houston traffic, had one, single, person get out of their car or truck at a red light, knock on my window to demonstrate to me how stupid they are by pecking on my driver's window to invite me out and into the street to mop the asphalt with their rear ends, that all happened just before I was saved in '90 and after it was no longero legal for one of my pieces to be on my hip or in my front seat, loaded.

Even stupid people do not mess with armed men..

 

[OzSpen]

And in this is the huge mistake that you and some others in these forums make. You assume we are talking about getting revenge and based most of what you say on this erroneous assumption. We are NOT. I am talking about self defense. Self defense and revenge are NOT the same thing and scripture never tells us we can't defend ourselves. You are very wrong when you say "Using a gun is avenging ourselves." Using a gun is certainly NOT limited to revenge. You say "God's instruction to us (my paraphrase) is: Don't do it with a gun." You have no scriptural basis for inserting a gun into this scripture. That is simply adding something to scripture that is not there and claiming it is the word of God. This is wrong.

Obadiah,

I really did waste my time doing an exposition and interpretation in context of Romans 12:18 (ESV), didn't I? The context is Rom 12:14 (ESV), 'Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them'.

I was drawing an application about the use of a gun. We cannot bless those who persecute us and our families by using guns.

Where in Scripture does it say that we are to defend ourselves by the use of guns or the sword or bow and arrow? I know that governments had the right of the sword in the first century: 'For he [ruler of governing authority] is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer' (Rom 12:4 ESV).

You don't like the idea that I used Rom 12:19 (ESV) and 'avenge', but Rom 12:4 (ESV) used the language of 'avenge' and not of self-defense.

The governing authorities have the right of using guns (as was found out with the terrorists in the San Bernardino massacre.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If possible can be a big if.

There are an abundance of sights available on the opposite side. Such as:

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

When we recognize that "all" do in fact have "evil present" with them, there is more than ample reason to question everything man does, even ourselves.

The OP is dealing with what to do to reduce mass shootings.

 

[OzSpen]

And in this is the huge mistake that you and some others in these forums make. You assume we are talking about getting revenge and based most of what you say on this erroneous assumption. We are NOT. I am talking about self defense. Self defense and revenge are NOT the same thing and scripture never tells us we can't defend ourselves. You are very wrong when you say "Using a gun is avenging ourselves." Using a gun is certainly NOT limited to revenge. You say "God's instruction to us (my paraphrase) is: Don't do it with a gun." You have no scriptural basis for inserting a gun into this scripture. That is simply adding something to scripture that is not there and claiming it is the word of God. This is wrong.

Obadiah,

You claim I'm making a 'huge mistake' by assuming 'we are talking about getting revenge'.... We are NOT. I am talking about self defense'.

I raised the issue of revenge in Rom 12:19 (ESV), which states, 'Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord”.

'Avenge' is the Greek verb, ekdikew. What is its meaning?

"Vengeance' is the noun, ekdikesis (the first 'e' is a transliteration of epsilon; the second 'e' is a transliteration of eta). What is the meaning of ekdikesis? You don't like my association of guns with vengeance but you claim it has to do with self defense.

That's why I'd like you to explain the meaning of these 2 Greek words for clarification.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

That's a red herring fallacy. You did not address the issues I raised in #238.

Again.it's not.our government asks citizens to form Posses to assist in law enforcement. AZ has one that patrols schools. My wife let her home go,lived in fear for life.this mean was beating her head on a desk.her daughter loaded a shotgun aimed at his head said you may continue or die .the choice is yours.so you think God says to pray for them to repent or to be avenged?

 

[WIP]

I wonder if one takes the position that we are not to defend ourselves, then what is that person's view about law enforcement?

 

[reba]

at what point and how does one defend his family ?

 

[smaller]

The OP is dealing with what to do to reduce mass shootings.

Apparently in your sights that means "defend not" and "get shot."

Brought to us by the religious institute of the Pollyanna Principles.

 

[Edward]

And in this is the huge mistake that you and some others in these forums make. You assume we are talking about getting revenge and based most of what you say on this erroneous assumption. We are NOT. I am talking about self defense. Self defense and revenge are NOT the same thing and scripture never tells us we can't defend ourselves. You are very wrong when you say "Using a gun is avenging ourselves." Using a gun is certainly NOT limited to revenge. You say "God's instruction to us (my paraphrase) is: Don't do it with a gun." You have no scriptural basis for inserting a gun into this scripture. That is simply adding something to scripture that is not there and claiming it is the word of God. This is wrong.

There is indeed a big difference between revenge, and self defense. Defense is when exigent circumstances (a sudden emergency) happen, and action is required to stop an active threat. Revenge is something that is done after a threat or hurt occurs, and one has the (temptation) to get them back as punishment.

Self defense also includes the defense of others in your charge, as in family.

Jesus said, sell your cloak and buy a sword. They answered and said, we have two, to which Jesus replied, it is enough.
To me, this seems to be an admonition to not go overboard with weaponry. Having too many weapons could take ones faith off of God, and turn into idolization of them.

Even David approached Goliath with a sling.

Now, to live by the sword is to die by the sword, and I believe that. To slip into the weaponry frenzy like many preppers do, would be a worldly response, and we are to be walking with Christ. So, to live by the Spirit is to live by the Spirit.

Or so it seems to me...

 

[smaller]

Jesus, defending Himself:

John 8:59
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus, defending Himself:

John 18:
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

The Spirit also directs to KILL. Here, for examples:

Acts 5:
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Not all methods of defense are carnal. But there are methods of defense that are brought by the Spirit and killing does transpire, by God.

Psalm 34:7
The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

 

[Obadiah]

Obadiah,

You claim I'm making a 'huge mistake' by assuming 'we are talking about getting revenge'.... We are NOT. I am talking about self defense'.

I raised the issue of revenge in Rom 12:19 (ESV), which states, 'Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord”.

'Avenge' is the Greek verb, ekdikew. What is its meaning?

"Vengeance' is the noun, ekdikesis (the first 'e' is a transliteration of epsilon; the second 'e' is a transliteration of eta). What is the meaning of ekdikesis? You don't like my association of guns with vengeance but you claim it has to do with self defense.

That's why I'd like you to explain the meaning of these 2 Greek words for clarification.

Oz

Yes, you are making a mistake in assuming that self defense and revenge are the same thing. They are not.

The greek words you mention as far as I can see are translated correctly as "vengeance". That's not the issue. The issue is that you seem unwilling to consider that self defense is not the same thing as revenge and that revenge isn't the only use of a gun. When confronting deadly force from an attacker, a gun can and is used as a defensive weapon, not a weapon of revenge. In fact, most times the simple display of the gun is enough to de-escalate the situation and save your life. No shots need even be fired. And in that sense, you may have actually preserved the life of your attacker because if the police get there and you have NOT de-escalated the situation (or you are already dead), they will most certainly kill your attacker! (Yes, I speak from much real life experience on this, not from just some theoretical idea.)

So this scripture is very clearly not speaking of self defense nor is it condemning self defense, and the Greek words you point to prove this. It is condemning taking revenge, not condemning self defense. The difference is like night and day. I've explained this in my previous post and you obviously refuse to see or accept that, so clearly we are at an impasse. We can just leave it there, that's fine. We don't all have to agree on everything!

 

[Obadiah]

There is indeed a big difference between revenge, and self defense. Defense is when exigent circumstances (a sudden emergency) happen, and action is required to stop an active threat. Revenge is something that is done after a threat or hurt occurs, and one has the (temptation) to get them back as punishment.

Self defense also includes the defense of others in your charge, as in family.

Jesus said, sell your cloak and buy a sword. They answered and said, we have two, to which Jesus replied, it is enough.
To me, this seems to be an admonition to not go overboard with weaponry. Having too many weapons could take ones faith off of God, and turn into idolization of them.

Even David approached Goliath with a sling.

Now, to live by the sword is to die by the sword, and I believe that. To slip into the weaponry frenzy like many preppers do, would be a worldly response, and we are to be walking with Christ. So, to live by the Spirit is to live by the Spirit.

Or so it seems to me...

EXACTLY!!!!!

 

[OzSpen]

Again.it's not.our government asks citizens to form Posses to assist in law enforcement. AZ has one that patrols schools. My wife let her home go,lived in fear for life.this mean was beating her head on a desk.her daughter loaded a shotgun aimed at his head said you may continue or die .the choice is yours.so you think God says to pray for them to repent or to be avenged?

Jason,

This is another red herring.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, you are making a mistake in assuming that self defense and revenge are the same thing. They are not.

The greek words you mention as far as I can see are translated correctly as "vengeance". That's not the issue. The issue is that you seem unwilling to consider that self defense is not the same thing as revenge and that revenge isn't the only use of a gun. When confronting deadly force from an attacker, a gun can and is used as a defensive weapon, not a weapon of revenge. In fact, most times the simple display of the gun is enough to de-escalate the situation and save your life. No shots need even be fired. And in that sense, you may have actually preserved the life of your attacker because if the police get there and you have NOT de-escalated the situation (or you are already dead), they will most certainly kill your attacker! (Yes, I speak from much real life experience on this, not from just some theoretical idea.)

So this scripture is very clearly not speaking of self defense nor is it condemning self defense, and the Greek words you point to prove this. It is condemning taking revenge, not condemning self defense. The difference is like night and day. I've explained this in my previous post and you obviously refuse to see or accept that, so clearly we are at an impasse. We can just leave it there, that's fine. We don't all have to agree on everything!

Obadiah,

You haven't provided the exegesis of the Greek words to tell me exactly what they mean in Romans 12:19 (ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

I wonder if one takes the position that we are not to defend ourselves, then what is that person's view about law enforcement?

That's simple:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgement. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honour to whom honour is owed (Rom 13:1-7 ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

Apparently in your sights that means "defend not" and "get shot."

Brought to us by the religious institute of the Pollyanna Principles.

So is that how you describe my exegesis of Scripture - Pollyanna Principles? Where is your exegesis to counter the exegesis I provided?

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus, defending Himself:

John 8:59
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus, defending Himself:

John 18:
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

The Spirit also directs to KILL. Here, for examples:

Acts 5:
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Not all methods of defense are carnal. But there are methods of defense that are brought by the Spirit and killing does transpire, by God.

Psalm 34:7
The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

These are not verses in support of self-defense. You have tried to make them mean such, but they do not achieve what you want them to mean.

It is audacious of you to use Deut 32:39,

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

It has ZERO to do with self-defense. Zilch! It speaks of God, 'I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me'. Who is the one who said , 'I kill' and 'I wound'? It is God himself. It is not referring to any human being providing self-defense.

You have given a classic example of eisegesis - imposing your own meaning on the text, when it is not saying that at all.

Oz