Liberal Christianity & its killer instinct

[OzSpen]

Have you read the article in Christian Today (not Christianity Today) of 16 May 2016, 'Evangelical Christians condemn introduction of Zen Buddhism to York Minster'?

This article goes hand in glove with the New York Times article from 4 years ago, 'Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?' (July 14, 2012).

Could we be seeing the demise of a Christianity (liberalism) that is not Christianity at all, because it has abandoned or aborted the Gospel of Christ alone for salvation? Imagine it: Christianity integrated with Zen Buddhism in a UK Anglican church.

Where else is liberalism killing off genuine Christianity? Or is it weakening the Christian graces to the point where they are seen as no more powerful than those offered by secular social services?

I'm raising this as a matter for our consideration. It was in 1923 that J Gresham Machen published, Christianity & Liberalism (available online) and that trend has continued for at least a century.

Can liberal Christianity be saved?

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Have you read the article in Christian Today (not Christianity Today) of 16 May 2016, 'Evangelical Christians condemn introduction of Zen Buddhism to York Minster'?

This article goes hand in glove with the New York Times article from 4 years ago, 'Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?' (July 14, 2012).

Could we be seeing the demise of a Christianity (liberalism) that is not Christianity at all, because it has abandoned or aborted the Gospel of Christ alone for salvation? Imagine it: Christianity integrated with Zen Buddhism in a UK Anglican church.

Where else is liberalism killing off genuine Christianity? Or is it weakening the Christian graces to the point where they are seen as no more powerful than those offered by secular social services?

I'm raising this as a matter for our consideration. It was in 1923 that J Gresham Machen published, Christianity & Liberalism (available online) and that trend has continued for at least a century.

Can liberal Christianity be saved?

Oz

When you define liberal Christianity. It's common here to see a liberal socialist view in politics.

 

[OzSpen]

When you define liberal Christianity. It's common here to see a liberal socialist view in politics.

Let's stick with the topic I've raised. As to the socialist view in politics and its association with liberal Christianity, why don't you start another thread to pursue that?

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think liberal/progressive Protestant Christianity appeals to a select demographic...and they generally aren't all that big on Scripture, sound doctrine, all that.

The fastest growing movement in the US and worldwide is the Pentecostal movement. Like it or not, Pentecostals are taking over...there's even charismatic Catholics...

I think that religion that "proclaims a form of godliness, but lacks the power thereof" will fade away, whether that religion is conservative, liberal, or inbetween. People who are genuinely hungry for Truth will eventually look elsewhere.

 

[jasonc]

Let's stick with the topic I've raised. As to the socialist view in politics and its association with liberal Christianity, why don't you start another thread to pursue that?

In america that is common.I have seen this personally. My town has more has a few large non taxable churches.these all were prior to the existence of my city and county and go back to ww1.of those one is apostate.the other are just before the depression. You will often see liberal churches and democrats go hand in hand.liberals support abortion,gay marriage,etc.a liberal church supports that.

There might be republicans in those churches but by large all the letters from the pastor suggest what I say. I know the church stories.I follow them as I find old arials and look it up.

The trinity church is sadly one.it splits into three churches.one will build where a charter school was,the other on the beach.the fate of methodist church isn't yet decided it will be ugly.

We have three of the United methodis here,and one bethel a.m.e.the downtown one is over a hundred years old.it survived it's sanctuary being burned down.I hate to see liberalism destroy it.

 

[OzSpen]

When you define liberal Christianity. It's common here to see a liberal socialist view in politics.

Jason,

I haven't defined liberal Christianity. However, this article from Got Questions?, 'What is liberal Christian theology?' gives a good, but brief, explanation.

To this I would add the contemporary, postmodern dynamic that is promoted by some in mainline denominations. Postmodernism manifests mainly in Western culture. This includes emphases where,

• It can be defined as a new way of thinking about literature, philosophy, the arts, humanities, theology and in other areas (even infecting archaeology as J D Crossan co-authored with archaeologist, Jonathan L Reed). Heidegger's philosophy had an early impact on the movement.
  
• For an example of how postmodernism is applied to biblical studies, read the fellows of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan (former RCC monk) being one of the leading examples.
  
• His postmodern definition of history is that 'history is the past reconstructed interactively by the present through argued evidence in public discourse' (Crossan 1999:3). You and I will have a hard time applying that to the history of Thomas Jefferson and Captain James Cook. For Jesus, this means....
• Jesus must be reconstructed 'over and over again in different times and different places, by different groups and different communities, and by every generation again and again and again. The reason, of course, is that historical reconstruction is always interactive of present and past' (Crossan 1999:5). But Crossan did not use that approach to history when he wrote his autobiography (Crossan 2000).
  
• What does this mean? 'It will not guarantee us the truth because nothing can do that' (Crossan 1999:5).
• 'Mark created the empty tomb story just as he created the sleeping disciples in Gethsemane.... The empty tomb story is neither an early historical event nor a late legendary narrative but a deliberate Markan creation' (Crossan 1999:11, 12)
  
• This means there was no bodily resurrection of Jesus, but the resurrection appearances were apparitions = visions (Crossan 1999:6) and that is what led to the spread of Christianity.

Notice what this postmodernist does with history and the biblical text? He imposes his own interpretation on the text and the meaning of the text is not derived from what is in the text but is imposed on the text by a postmodern professor of biblical studies.

The late Marcus Borg, Jesus Seminar fellow, sometimes was co-author with Crossan in promoting postmodern history and theology.

I've written a brief article to try to address these matters: Is liberal theology heresy?

See also, Damning evidence against theological liberalism.


Works consulted

Crossan, J D 1999. Historical Jesus as risen Lord, in Crossan, J D, Johnson, L T & Kelber, W H, The Jesus controversy : Perspectives in conflict, 1-47. Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International.

Crossan, J D 2000. A long way from Tipperary: A memoir. New York, NY: HarperSanFrancisco.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

I haven't defined liberal Christianity. However, this article from Got Questions?, 'What is liberal Christian theology?' gives a good, but brief, explanation.

To this I would add the contemporary, postmodern dynamic that is promoted by some in mainline denominations. Postmodernism manifests mainly in Western culture. This includes emphases where,

• It can be defined as a new way of thinking about literature, philosophy, the arts, humanities, theology and in other areas (even infecting archaeology as J D Crossan co-authored with archaeologist, Jonathan L Reed). Heidegger's philosophy had an early impact on the movement.
  
• For an example of how postmodernism is applied to biblical studies, read the fellows of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan (former RCC monk) being one of the leading examples.
  
• His postmodern definition of history is that 'history is the past reconstructed interactively by the present through argued evidence in public discourse' (Crossan 1999:3). You and I will have a hard time applying that to the history of Thomas Jefferson and Captain James Cook. For Jesus, this means....
• Jesus must be reconstructed 'over and over again in different times and different places, by different groups and different communities, and by every generation again and again and again. The reason, of course, is that historical reconstruction is always interactive of present and past' (Crossan 1999:5). But Crossan did not use that approach to history when he wrote his autobiography (Crossan 2000).
  
• What does this mean? 'It will not guarantee us the truth because nothing can do that' (Crossan 1999:5).
• 'Mark created the empty tomb story just as he created the sleeping disciples in Gethsemane.... The empty tomb story is neither an early historical event nor a late legendary narrative but a deliberate Markan creation' (Crossan 1999:11, 12)
  
• This means there was no bodily resurrection of Jesus, but the resurrection appearances were apparitions = visions (Crossan 1999:6) and that is what led to the spread of Christianity.

Notice what this postmodernist does with history and the biblical text? He imposes his own interpretation on the text and the meaning of the text is not derived from what is in the text but is imposed on the text by a postmodern professor of biblical studies.

The late Marcus Borg, Jesus Seminar fellow, sometimes was co-author with Crossan in promoting postmodern history and theology.

Works consulted

Crossan, J D 1999. Historical Jesus as risen Lord, in Crossan, J D, Johnson, L T & Kelber, W H, The Jesus controversy : Perspectives in conflict, 1-47. Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International.

Crossan, J D 2000. A long way from Tipperary: A memoir. New York, NY: HarperSanFrancisco.

Oz

I know the definition but in my area.you won't often find a pastor who openly push for Democrats in the pulpit.they will write letters in support of the lbgt,calling it bigotry to support Jesus as the only way,or how all faiths are equal.

I know there are theological conservative, socially conservative, but are also democrats in politics persons. Just not in my area.these are large churches for now but time will tell.I live in the most unchurched area of the us per capita.

The uu,the community church and trinity church and the reformed jews preach about the same and unity.

 

[OzSpen]

In america that is common.I have seen this personally. My town has more has a few large non taxable churches.these all were prior to the existence of my city and county and go back to ww1.of those one is apostate.the other are just before the depression. You will often see liberal churches and democrats go hand in hand.liberals support abortion,gay marriage,etc.a liberal church supports that.

There might be republicans in those churches but by large all the letters from the pastor suggest what I say. I know the church stories.I follow them as I find old arials and look it up.

The trinity church is sadly one.it splits into three churches.one will build where a charter school was,the other on the beach.the fate of methodist church isn't yet decided it will be ugly.

We have three of the United methodis here,and one bethel a.m.e.the downtown one is over a hundred years old.it survived it's sanctuary being burned down.I hate to see liberalism destroy it.

We have a similar picture here in Australia. If you want to see churches in the throws of death, go to the liberals. Locally for me in northern Brisbane, that means going to the Anglican and Uniting Protestant Churches. Here the continuing Methodists are the Wesleyan Methodists and they are evangelical (apart from being overwhelmed with secular psychology). The liberal Methodists joined with the liberal Presbyterians and Congregationalists in 1977 to form the Uniting Church.

See, Two Australian denominations face big challenges. This article states that the Uniting Church has lost 40% of its people since 1991. Theological liberalism kills churches.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Usually does.

As old and a big part of my county history. I hate to see them go.families started all these churches and we're part since the beginning. Some still are faithful churches who have 4th generation members. I know the Baptist church does.it was started in 1915.same with the rcc and united methodist church

 

[OzSpen]

I think liberal/progressive Protestant Christianity appeals to a select demographic...and they generally aren't all that big on Scripture, sound doctrine, all that.

The fastest growing movement in the US and worldwide is the Pentecostal movement. Like it or not, Pentecostals are taking over...there's even charismatic Catholics...

I think that religion that "proclaims a form of godliness, but lacks the power thereof" will fade away, whether that religion is conservative, liberal, or inbetween. People who are genuinely hungry for Truth will eventually look elsewhere.

Are you saying that those hungry for truth will become Pentecostal? By the way, Charismatic Catholics have been active in Australia since at least the 1960s.

The OP deals with liberal Christianity and its killer instinct. What is happening among liberal congregations in your community? What reading have you been doing about what liberalism does to a congregation?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I know the definition but in my area.you won't often find a pastor who openly push for Democrats in the pulpit.they will write letters in support of the lbgt,calling it bigotry to support Jesus as the only way,or how all faiths are equal.

I know there are theological conservative, socially conservative, but are also democrats in politics persons. Just not in my area.these are large churches for now but time will tell.I live in the most unchurched area of the us per capita.

The uu,the community church and trinity church and the reformed jews preach about the same and unity.

Jason,

Did you notice what you did here with your reply at #7. You were replying to my post #6. Not once in #7 did you refer to the content of what I said in #6. When you did this, your response was a red herring fallacy.

When you do this, we can't have a logical discussion as you go right off topic with the content of what I was addressing. Don't you understand how damaging this is to reasonable conversation in person or on a Christian forum like this?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I know the definition but in my area.you won't often find a pastor who openly push for Democrats in the pulpit.they will write letters in support of the lbgt,calling it bigotry to support Jesus as the only way,or how all faiths are equal.

I know there are theological conservative, socially conservative, but are also democrats in politics persons. Just not in my area.these are large churches for now but time will tell.I live in the most unchurched area of the us per capita.

The uu,the community church and trinity church and the reformed jews preach about the same and unity.

Jason,

Did you notice what you did here with your reply at #7. You were replying to my post #6. Not once in #7 did you refer to the content of what I said in #6. When you did this, your response was a red herring fallacy.

When you do this, we can't have a logical discussion as you go right off topic with the content of what I was addressing. Don't you understand how damaging this is to reasonable conversation in person or on a Christian forum like this?

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Did you notice what you did here with your reply at #7. You were replying to my post #6. Not once in #7 did you refer to the content of what I said in #6. When you did this, your response was a red herring fallacy.

When you do this, we can't have a logical discussion as you go right off topic with the content of what I was addressing. Don't you understand how damaging this is to reasonable conversation in person or on a Christian forum like this?

Oz

So voting for their views isn't a way for me to recognize them?

BTW the uu Flys the gay pride symbols or places them on their doors.

That's a way I know they arent christians. They will write letters to the editor in suppprt of the lbgt or against a church preaching Godly marriage.

 

[WIP]

Please consider the Forum Guidelines when posting. This is the A&T forum. Thank you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Christianity integrated with Zen Buddhism in a UK Anglican church.

Christianity integrated with Buddhism is like cross-breeding a Cocker-Spaniel with a dinner plate.

Buddhism is a religion which has as its purpose to bring the practitioner to the realization that there is only one entity in existence and everything is that entity. Where there is only one entity in existence there is no possibility of communion (there's no "other" with which to commune) or of Love since the only thing to love is itself and that is not love. The end (destination) of Budhism is to be absorbed into the "one."

Christianity is firmly founded in the concept of communion; even God is a kind of "community" of three existing in perfect, mutual love.
The purpose of Christianity is to bring about the perfect, loving, communion of individuals with one another and with God.
The end (destination) of Christianity is the intimacy of becoming one flesh (symbolized by marriage) with another who is God in Christ.

There can be no such "integration" unless the integrator is certifiably insane. (or, perhaps, just an ass)

iakov the fool

 

[Christ_empowered]

me again. My point about the popularity of Pentecostalism is that peopl hunger for salvation and truth and guidance. There are branches of the Pentecostal movement that are in serious error, but...overall, I take the growth of Pentecostalism as a good sign that Christianity is growing in a vital, dynamic form, both here in the US and abroad.

 

[Malachi]

Can liberal Christianity be saved?

No. Should it be saved? No. It is simply False Christianity.

 

[Jim Parker]

me again. My point about the popularity of Pentecostalism is that peopl hunger for salvation and truth and guidance. There are branches of the Pentecostal movement that are in serious error, but...overall, I take the growth of Pentecostalism as a good sign that Christianity is growing in a vital, dynamic form, both here in the US and abroad.

I believe you're right.

 

[jasonc]

The charismatic catholic movement isn't new. I attended those meetings almost 20 years ago

 

[Jim Parker]

The charismatic catholic movement isn't new. I attended those meetings almost 20 years ago

Being only 50 or 60 years old, it's newer than, for example, John Wesley's "holy clubs" or the charismatic manifestations of the "Great Awakening" of the 1730s.