“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[GodsGrace]

Couldn't be anymore clear.

JLB

But I doubt it will make any difference.

The writers of the N.T. predicted there would be false teachers, as indeed there always have been, and Christians are led astray with false teachings:

2 Peter chapter 2 speaks about false prophets.
Also,
Romans 16:17-18
2 Timothy 3:13
1 John 4:1

And others.

W

 

[JLB]

i am still waiting on her to show at what point we become lost again.....

I guess your not going to answer my question, so here's a scripture to answer yours.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• James refers to those among the brethren.

• Someone among the brethren who wanders "from the truth" has gone from being "brethren" back to being a sinner... as he says, he who turns a sinner from the error of his way, saves a soul from death.
• This brother among them who wandered from the truth and went back to being a sinner, was in danger of eternal death.... as he says, will save a soul from death.

• Those who turn a brother back, who has turned from the truth and become a sinner, in danger of eternal death, is walking in love, for he says... "covers a multitude of sins", which is love language, for love covers a multitude of sins.

JLB

 

[smaller]

There ARE different types of faith spoken of in the bible.

Different works of faith, yes. But there is only one faith.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, -

James speaks to different types of faith In
The first type of faith is DEAD FAITH

Dead faith is the same as no faith. It needs no clarification or characterizations other than it doesn't exist.

We (should have full assurance) in Jesus' Abilities. And no assurance in our own abilities.

I am quite fully assured that no person is capable of saving themselves. I have every assurance that Jesus is capable of coming through on His Promises and that no man is capable of performing an eternal promise nor is a promise kept by man worthy of eternal reward.

God isn't in the market of buying filthy rag righteousness, no matter how well we might think they look.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[JLB]

Dead faith is the same as no faith.

Dead faith, is faith that has not been acted upon, or obeyed.

No faith is, the absence of faith.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20

In direct contradiction to your statement, James teaches us: dead faith is faith... without works.

No faith is the absence of faith.
Dead Faith, is faith without works.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Different works of faith, yes. But there is only one faith.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, -


Dead faith is the same as no faith. It needs no clarification or characterizations other than it doesn't exist.

We (should have full assurance) in Jesus' Abilities. And no assurance in our own abilities.

I am quite fully assured that no person is capable of saving themselves. I have every assurance that Jesus is capable of coming through on His Promises and that no man is capable of performing an eternal promise nor is a promise kept by man worthy of eternal reward.

God isn't in the market of buying filthy rag righteousness, no matter how well we might think they look.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I was going to say exactly what JLB said.

I don't agree with you.
NO FAITH means you don't even believe God exists. You have No Faith, faith is non-existent.
DEAD FAITH means you THINK you have faith, but it's only intellectual and you don't really believe. That foot between the head and the heart that I've heard you speak of.

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You're exampling my point. Jesus doesn't say soil #4 had to bear any amount of fruit to be saved.

And neither do I. God is not judging the believer on producing a legalistic 'x' amount of fruit, or you're lost. But he is expecting a return commensurate with the believer's level of maturity and development, which is directly tied to the amount of spiritual revelation they have received and the time given to bring increase to it (Matthew 25:15 NASB).

the major teaching of Jesus' parable is not about salvation. It's about fruit production.

Yes, it's not about fruit only. The plain, easy to read fact is that Jesus said soil #1 does not believe, and soil #2 does believe. From there, obviously, soils #3 & #4 are the soil of believers as well by extension, because what represents salvation in the parable is the word taking root in the soil. It's that 'holding fast of the word' thing that hyper-grace OSAS can't reconcile with it's argument.

Soil that retains the word is saved soil. Soil that expels it is lost soil. Soils #1 & #2 expel the word sown altogether. The word does not abide in them. While soils #3 & #4 do keep the word abiding in them. They struggle with, and then produce the fruit of the kingdom, respectively (Luke 8:14-15 NASB). So it's definitely a matter of salvation in the parable and not just about producing the fruit of the Spirit.

But the answer to your question is zero fruitfulness is required for salvation (to gain it or keep it).

Fruitfulness is required to validate the person as having faith in God. Born again people are changed people who produce fruit, while those who don't have faith don't produce fruit (1 John 3:7-8 NASB). Do not be deceived about this, John says (vs.7).

The famous, but weak, argument about the thief on the cross is easily reconciled with this teaching about fruitfulness in accordance with what I said above. Any one believer's expected harvest of fruit is commensurate on three important things: The amount of revelation they have received, and the time and opportunity they had to bring increase to the knowledge they had received. Obviously, the thief on the cross excelled in the area of revelation, but was severely handicapped in regard to time and opportunity.

Where Jesus' interpretation of the parable does teach on salvation, it is entirely consistent with OSAS and the assurance of salvation too. Had soil #1 believed, they'd been saved. That soil did not believe and thusly were not saved. Pretty simple really. As far as soils 2-4 salvation status, Jesus doesn't interpret them. You do.

Well, here's your problem with deciding we can't know the state of soils #2 & #3:

" the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB bold mine)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB bold mine)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB bold mine)

To somehow suggest that soil that does not still have the word of God in it that it first received is still saved soil completely contradicts the passages above. In fact, the above passages are precisely how we can know that soil #2 is lost, and soil #3 is presently saved (it still has the word sown abiding in it). If somewhere in the time and opportunity allotted it, soil #3 rejects the seed sown altogether it will then be lost soil according to the passages above. Obviously, if it progresses to soil #4 it will be doing exactly what God expects it to do.

 

[ezra]

I guess your not going to answer my question, so here's a scripture to answer yours.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• James refers to those among the brethren.

• Someone among the brethren who wanders "from the truth" has gone from being "brethren" back to being a sinner... as he says, he who turns a sinner from the error of his way, saves a soul from death.
• This brother among them who wandered from the truth and went back to being a sinner, was in danger of eternal death.... as he says, will save a soul from death.

• Those who turn a brother back, who has turned from the truth and become a sinner, in danger of eternal death, is walking in love, for he says... "covers a multitude of sins", which is love language, for love covers a multitude of sins.

JLB

question have you ever wondered away ? if so was you lost again? of course i am sure you dotted every I crossed every T since being saved . i am well aware of the scriptures. i asked at WHAT POINT THE EXACT MOMENT when we sin .my next post will be of tiny Tim singing tip toe through the tulips . i asked specifics the exact time place moment

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was going to say exactly what JLB said.

I don't agree with you.
NO FAITH means you don't even believe God exists. You have No Faith, faith is non-existent.
DEAD FAITH means you THINK you have faith, but it's only intellectual and you don't really believe. That foot between the head and the heart that I've heard you speak of.

W

I believe no faith is used in reference to Mark 4:40;
The disciples at this point did not understand that Jesus was the Messiah.
They had unbelief. No faith.
I think they believed in God, believed a Messiah would come to save them, but still didn't believe that Jesus was that Messiah.
When Jesus calmed the sea, he asked if they still had no faith.
His miracle gave them something to think about.

 

[smaller]

I was going to say exactly what JLB said.
I don't agree with you.
NO FAITH means you don't even believe God exists. You have No Faith, faith is non-existent.
DEAD FAITH means you THINK you have faith, but it's only intellectual and you don't really believe. That foot between the head and the heart that I've heard you speak of.

W

Picking at the terms won't matter. Dead faith is the same as no faith.

We know that whatever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

When believers doubt, it is not of faith, but of sin. The non-OSAS postures are filled with doubt.

Best to put the old man to the grave because I doubt very much that man is capable of earning or doing anything worthy of God. He should doubt every step of his way until he finds the GRAVE.

But there are plenty of freewillers who don't doubt themselves. I've yet to meet a fervent non-OSAS adherent who didn't believe they were just as fully saved as any OSAS believer.

If the non OSAS camp doubts themselves, they should.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned -

This doubt is meant to lead the carnal man to the grave.

Romans 7:
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

All of you seeking to condemn are merely condemning people in faith who technically are considered dead in any case.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i have backed it all up using scripture. yet you keep telling me how wrong i am.

You are not rightly dividing the scriptures.
You and I must consider the whole counsel of scripture on this and all matters.

not a bad reply see you gave your definition of when... even though its kept by the power of God .

Don't leave out the 'through faith' part (1 Peter 1:5 NASB). That's the believing that you and I do, not God. God only provides the faith upon which we then do our believing. We have God's power protecting us until the Day of Redemption through our believing. God's power unto the salvation that will be revealed is conditioned on our continued believing. God doesn't do our believing for us so as to make our salvation sure in that way. But that is the false sense of assurance that so many in the Protestant church have. The outcome of that kind of thinking is you can settle into any level of complacent 'believing' and the fruit it does or doesn't produce and you are still good with God in regard to salvation. Just look around you and tell me that isn't how it is in the church today.

you said GOD removes do you have scripture

"18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Romans 9:18 NASB)

"...God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NASB)

"...his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”" (Matthew 18:32-35 NASB)

 

[smaller]

Dead faith, is faith that has not been acted upon, or obeyed.

Here is the "evidence" and "working" of faith:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Do we see "just man" in operation above? No. We see a dead person who has died and been crucified in Christ, with the Spirit of God operating in them, the Holy Ghost speaking.

That is why these discussions are pointless when they try to see "just the person." That isn't the case.

No faith is, the absence of faith.

The scripture is is vastly more 'kind' in it's regard to the evidence of faith than you propose. Here we see that people who didn't even know Jesus, were in fact accepted by God:

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20
In direct contradiction to your statement, James teaches us: dead faith is faith... without works.

I'm sure you have a comprehensive "list" of ALL of what the above might entail?

Jesus appears to be quite kind in His Determinations of what constitutes a "sufficient work or works."

Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Are any of you works for salvation proponents satisfied with that small measure of work?

Unlikely.

Jesus addressed 'work' questions here:

John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i asked at WHAT POINT THE EXACT MOMENT when we sin .my next post will be of tiny Tim singing tip toe through the tulips . i asked specifics the exact time place moment

You're asking something that only God knows when to judge. He judges the heart, in righteousness, not us.
Only God knows when a person is truly done struggling with the gospel and their minds are made up. But ultimately, God "hardens whom He hardens" (Romans 9:18 NASB) anyway. Our goal is to keep the word of God abiding in us so that the 'when' of losing our salvation if we don't abide in the word is not even an issue. That is the counsel of scripture, not to know at which point God hardens your heart. We have the counsel of the scriptures concerning his long suffering, not the timetable of his judgments.

 

[ezra]

You're asking something that only God knows when to judge. He judges the heart, in righteousness, not us.

bingo at least one of you finial y GOT IT

 

[JLB]

Here is the "evidence" and "working" of faith:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Do we see "just man" in operation above? No. We see a dead person who has died and been crucified in Christ, with the Spirit of God operating in them, the Holy Ghost speaking.

That is why these discussions are pointless when they try to see "just the person." That isn't the case.


The scripture is is vastly more 'kind' in it's regard to the evidence of faith than you propose. Here we see that people who didn't even know Jesus, were in fact accepted by God:

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


I'm sure you have a comprehensive "list" of ALL of what the above might entail?

Jesus appears to be quite kind in His Determinations of what constitutes a "sufficient work or works."

Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Are any of you works for salvation proponents satisfied with that small measure of work?

Unlikely.

Jesus addressed 'work' questions here:

John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Nothing above is about the context of what you yourself stated, which is: Dead faith is the same as no faith.


This is utterly and completely false.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20

Dead faith is faith without works.

No faith is the absence of faith.

Two completely different things.

Dead faith is faith, without works.

Nothing you can say will change this fact.


JLB

 

[JLB]

have you ever wondered away ?

Of course I wonder away... When she post's a good a quality post, or promotes good biblically sound doctrine, I wonder away in agreement with her.

JLB

 

[JLB]

i asked specifics the exact time place moment

Actually, here is what you asked: i am still waiting on her to show at what point we become lost again.....

I showed you from the scriptures.

If you don't want what the scriptures teach us, then what is it that you are looking for?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

bingo at least one of you finial y GOT IT

What we know are the conditions for losing your salvation. You seemed to have been implying that it can never happen. It can and does happen. I'm pretty sure that's the point of contention that you have, not that we can't know the exact place for any one believer where no longer abiding in the word forfeits their salvation.

 

[smaller]

Nothing above is about the context of what you yourself stated, which is: Dead faith is the same as no faith.

There are measures, quite generous, in the scriptures. And there are also stingy measures in the scriptures. Whatever way a heart leans is only a reflection of what is therein to reflect, Heb. 4:12.

I observed that a cup of water equals a reward that can not be lost. That would be an eternal reward of that work. Is that "sufficient" in the eyes and hearts of others? Unlikely. But it IS THERE to be seen and had. Matt. 10:42, Mark 9:41.

Will we find any non-OSAS person step up to the pump and recognize this sufficient work? Probably not. I might say they just have a hard heart, never satisfied.

I also observed that the "work" of God is to believe. Again, some will see that entirely sufficient. John 6:29. Will a non-OSAS proponent see that as sufficient? Probably not. The hard heart is never satisfied with any amounts of works.

Let's face a fact about works. It brings doubts in those who think it must be to be saved and there is no amount of work that is satisfactory. IN other words there is no satisfactory attained or attainable work in such eyes.

Their fate is left in perpetual doubt, by their own doubt, which is sin. And yet the double standard is, they don't doubt themselves. And they doubt the full assurance and total sufficiency of Christ.

There are multiple millions of believers who are taught that they are not saved. Doubt peddled, through and through, by these kinds of camps.

The best that they can have in the now, is a maybe or a maybe not.

Deuteronomy 28:66
And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

This is actually a curse from God.

We know that those who seek salvation by law/works are in fact under a DIVINE curse.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[chessman]

what represents salvation in the parable is the word taking root in the soil.

It would be more helpful to your case if the Lord had actually told them that the seed taking root represents salvation versus you saying it.

Soil that retains the word is saved soil.

The parable teaches that the soil that retains the word bears fruit. You teach that the soil that retains the word is saved. Again, the only soil Jesus said anything about their salvation status was soil #1. It is merely your speculation about the others.

Any one believer's expected harvest of fruit is commensurate on three important things:

Hmm, Jesus said "the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart".
You'd think The Devil would at least make fourth place in your list. Not to mention moisture and sunlight. But hay, speculation can yield all kinds of lists.

Obviously, the thief on the cross excelled in the area of revelation, but was severely handicapped in regard to time and opportunity.

Or he simply fell away (died) prior to bearing any fruit. Both thieves had the same revelation, time and wopportunity. One believed, one didn't. One saved for the remainder of his life without bearing any fruit. One not.

They struggle with, and then produce the fruit of the kingdom, respectively (Luke 8:14-15 NASB). So it's definitely a matter of salvation in the parable

Let me get this straight... Because they struggle with and then produce fruit and you speculate seed that takes root represents salvation then the parable is definitely a matter of salvation. That about right? Sounds pretty circular to me.

Well, here's your problem with deciding we can't know the state of soils #2 & #3:

I don't have a problem with deciding the soils' salvation state. If Jesus had meant to interpret their salvation state for us, He would have. He told the disciples then and their what the parable meant. And He didn't say it meant salvation. Nor did he leave it to Paul to do in a letter to the Corinthians.

 

[JLB]

There are measures, quite generous, in the scriptures. And there are also stingy measures in the scriptures. Whatever way a heart leans is only a reflection of what is therein to reflect, Heb. 4:12.

I observed that a cup of water equals a reward that can not be lost. That would be an eternal reward of that work. Is that "sufficient" in the eyes and hearts of others? Unlikely. But it IS THERE to be seen and had. Matt. 10:42, Mark 9:41.

Will we find any non-OSAS person step up to the pump and recognize this sufficient work? Probably not. I might say they just have a hard heart, never satisfied.

I also observed that the "work" of God is to believe. Again, some will see that entirely sufficient. John 6:29. Will a non-OSAS proponent see that as sufficient? Probably not. The hard heart is never satisfied with any amounts of works.

Let's face a fact about works. It brings doubts in those who think it must be to be saved and there is no amount of work that is satisfactory. IN other words there is no satisfactory attained or attainable work in such eyes.

Their fate is left in perpetual doubt, by their own doubt, which is sin. And yet the double standard is, they don't doubt themselves. And they doubt the full assurance and total sufficiency of Christ.

There are multiple millions of believers who are taught that they are not saved. Doubt peddled, through and through, by these kinds of camps.

The best that they can have in the now, is a maybe or a maybe not.

Deuteronomy 28:66
And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

This is actually a curse from God.

We know that those who seek salvation by law/works are in fact under a DIVINE curse.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Nothing above is about the context of what you yourself stated, which is: Dead faith is the same as no faith.


This is utterly and completely false.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?James 2:20

Dead faith is faith without works.

No faith is the absence of faith.

Two completely different things.

Dead faith is faith, without works.


JLB