1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Jethro Bodine]

The point remains that our new nature is incorruptible. Explain that along side the view that salvation can be lost.

Actually, what you have to do is invent a way to make this not mean what it says:
"...beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1 NASB)

I said this:
"Regarding the fact that Paul taught in Romans that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable."

Paul said he himself is the example of the gifts and calling being irrevocable for Israel (Romans 11:1 NASB). That is the context that shows us Paul is not saying that you can not lose the gift of eternal life/ salvation once you have received it.

He's talking about God's rejection of Israel. Just because God rejected them doesn't mean the gifts and calling he had for Israel have been revoked. Paul uses himself as the proof of that. It is hardly a passage about never being able to lose eternal life/salvation once you have it. That is not the context. But that is another common way OSAS makes OSAS true--ignore the context of passages they use to defend it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is only 1 way for my logic (not syllogism) to fail. One would have to prove either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God. Though Rom 6:23 says that it IS. Or,
2. the gifts of God are NOT irrevocable. Though Rom 11:29 says that they ARE.

...Or, 3. Paul is not talking about never being able to lose eternal life once you have it.
Why are you conveniently leaving that out of the list of things that have to be proven in order to make your logic fail?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The loss of salvation view is totally illogical since there are no verses that even make that claim.

"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB bold and underline mine)

The interesting thing being, OSAS has to add to the words of the book of Revelation to make it so that if God takes away your part from the tree of life and the holy city you still have Christ's abundant eternal life. Which I find incredibly ironic because the very defense of the OSAS argument that 'you are still saved and have Christ's eternal life if God assigns you your place outside of the holy city' is exactly an example of what will cause a person to lose their eternal life. Pure irony.

 

[JLB]

1 Peter 1:23-24
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Everyone agrees that when one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, they are saved, given eternal life and have been born again.

Those who spouse loss of salvation have not been able to explain how one who has been born again can be UN-born for any reason.

I hope that at least one from the loss of salvation position will explain how 1 Peter 1:23 is not about eternal security.

What does "imperishable seed" refer to? It clearly refers to the status of being born again.

So, those who believe have been born again of imperishable seed.

Since imperishable seed cannot perish, how does that verse fit into the position of loss of salvation?

If one reads the context and surrounding language then it becomes clear.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

• It is by through born again, we have the hope of inheriting the kingdom of God, and through this very same faith we are kept by the power of God for salvation; The salvation we will all receive at the end of our faith, when Jesus Christ is revealed at the end of the age, to gather His people at the resurrection.

• At that time He will sit as Judge, to Judge His people according to each one's work.

• as Paul also said - God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness— Romans 2:6-8

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

• Peter is writing to the believing Jews who were forced to flee their lives under the persecution from the unbelieving Jews. Rather than return to Judaism, through renouncing Christ, these fled to be scattered as "seed" through the region. Peter encourages them in this time of the testing of their faith, that they would continue in their faith, so in the end receive the salvation of their soul.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.


13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:1-23

Peter encourages us to continue in the faith, even while under persecution, so that:

• We who have been born again, will receive the salvation of our souls, at the end of our faith; not the beginning.
• We are kept by the power of God, through faith for salvation that will be revealed when Jesus Christ returns.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Paul said he himself is the example of the gifts and calling being irrevocable for Israel (Romans 11:1 NASB).

Paul said he was one of many examples (not "the example") of how God will never reject His people. Any of them. Elijah thought himself the only one left in his day. God corrected Elijah and claimed 7,000 were in fact His.

Romans 11:1, 3-5 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
...
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone [Elijah] am left, and they are seeking my life!” But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace.​

That's twice in one day you tagged a passage claiming it said something it in fact does not say.

Paul then goes on to make the same irrevocability claim specifically and clearly applied to Gentiles.

Romans 11:1, 11-12 Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! ... I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they? May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. And if their trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean?​

Claiming that Romans 11 is only in context for Israel as a nation is absured. Tell that to the 7,000 individuals God kept. Similarly, claiming Romans 11's irrevocability is only about Israel is just as absured. Clearly, Israel's example means all the more riches for the Gentiles. Why??? May it never be, that God rejects even one of His people. Jew or Gentile.

 

[JLB]

Therefore, this is another verse that teaches eternal security.

No such phrase, or language in the bible as "eternal security".

Certainly is not found in the writings of Peter.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul said he was one of many examples (not "the example") of how God will never reject His people.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.......Paul is the sole example of God not revoking the gifts and calling to Israel.
Come on, chessman, you gotta do better than that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul said he was one of many examples (not "the example") of how God will never reject His people. Any of them. Elijah thought himself the only one left in his day. God corrected Elijah and claimed 7,000 were in fact His.

Romans 11:1, 3-5 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
...
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone [Elijah] am left, and they are seeking my life!” But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace.​

That's twice in one day you tagged a passage claiming it said something it in fact does not say.

Paul then goes on to make the same irrevocability claim specifically and clearly applied to Gentiles.

Romans 11:1, 11-12 Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! ... I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they? May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. And if their trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean?​

Claiming that Romans 11 is only in context for Israel as a nation is absured. Tell that to the 7,000 individuals God kept. Similarly, claiming Romans 11's irrevocability is only about Israel is just as absured. Clearly, Israel's example means all the more riches for the Gentiles. Why??? May it never be, that God rejects even one of His people. Jew or Gentile.

Just show us in the passage where it says that people who believe, but then don't believe, still have eternal life.
What I see is Paul saying the gifts and calling given to Israel have not been revoked even though God has rejected them. Paul himself being proof of that (Romans 11:1 NASB).

 

[chessman]

What I see is Paul saying the gifts and calling given to Israel have not been revoked even though God has rejected them.

Wow, the passage literally says God has NOT rejected them (His people).

Romans 11:1 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow, the passage literally says God has NOT rejected them (His people).

Romans 11:1 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

"15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world..." (Romans 11:15 NASB)

If only I had a nickel for every person I've caught with this one.
Okay, so I'd only be 10¢ richer, lol. But you aren't the first person I've caught with that one.

The point being, God has rejected the Israelites, but he has not rejected them so as to revoke their gifts and calling. A remnant always exists to walk in those gifts and calling. Paul explains how he is proof of that. This is hardly a passage about a person still having eternal life even though they stop believing. You have to totally ignore the context of the passage, and ignore other clear scriptures in the Bible, to come up with that.

 

[chessman]

"15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world..." (Romans 11:15 NASB)

If only I had a nickel for every person I've caught with this one

Oh how the precision of the true Word and the ... Catches you every time:

Romans 11:1, 12, 14-15 Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

And if their trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean?
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean except life from the dead?
​

If you think they are rejected, oh how their fullness and acceptance is gonna surprise you one day.

 

[chessman]

You have to totally ignore the context of the passage,

You have to totally ignore the fact that Paul said IF, right after he said God has NOT rejected His people. Never!

 

[Jim Parker]

The Bible says that we are born again of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED. That is our new nature from a spiritual birth. The point remains that our new nature is incorruptible.

YOur error is in that you have lifted a piece of what Peter wrote rather than considering the entire comment as if the verse numbers marked independent, unconnected thoughts.

Peter's entire comment is:
1Pe 1:23-25 (RSV)You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That word is the good news which was preached to you.

The imperishable seed, according to Peter, is the word of God.
That passage says absolutely nothing about the eternal security heresy.

Explain that along side the view that salvation can be lost.

I already did.

Then your view is illogical.

Please explain how you came to that conclusion.

That is exactly what I presented.

I explained how that is not what you presented in my post #10.
You equated two things which were not equal; therefore, you syllogism is false.

If that is true, please identify every verse in ch 9-11 where Paul describes anything that Israel has as "gifts". It cannot be done.
In fact, there is no place in Scripture where Israel is said to be given gifts.

How did Israel get the Law? Did they work for it or was it given to them by God? It was given.(Deu 10:4)
How was Israel chosen? Did they compete in and win some epic competition or did God call them to be a kingdom of priests? God called them. (Ex 19:6)

There is only 1 way for my logic (not syllogism) to fail. One would have to prove either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God. Though Rom 6:23 says that it IS. Or,
2. the gifts of God are NOT irrevocable. Though Rom 11:29 says that they ARE.

Wrong again.
AS I already explained, in order for your syllogism to be correct, both of you "proof-texts" (A and B) would have to be talking about the same thing.
In Ro 6:23 Paul does say eternal life is a gift.
In Ro 11 Paul is NOT talking about eternal life. He's talking about whether or not Israel has been rejected by God. (Ro 11:1)
Those two subjects are not the same. A does NOT equal B.
When you employ the pop-theology technique of "proof-texting", which takes a snippet of the scriptures out of its context in order to give the appearance that the snippet supports something that has nothing to do with the passage from which it was unnaturally ripped, you get nonsense.
That is what you have done and that is the result you have gotten.

Not 6:3, but 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Right. My typo

If that is true, please identify every verse in ch 9-11 where Paul describes anything that Israel has as "gifts". It cannot be done.

It is most easily done.
Rom 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel.
Theirs is the adoption to sonship; (Did they earn that or was it a gift from God?)
theirs the divine glory, (Did they earn that or was it a gift from God?)
the covenants,(Did they earn that or was it a gift from God?)
the receiving of the law,(Did they earn that or was it a gift from God?)
the temple worship and the promises. (Did they earn that or was it a gift from God?)

Between 6:23 and 11:29, Paul does NOT use the word 'gifts'.

SO what? He doesn't have to use the word.
If I say to my son, "There's a new car in the driveway; here are the keys; it's yours."
Does that cease to be a gift because I didn't use the word "gift"?
Of course not.

Your statement is totally illogical.

Then please demonstrate where my logic fails.

I've shown from Rom 6:23 and 11:29 that A (eternal life) DOES EQUAL B (gift of God), and that B (gifts of God) DOES EQUAL C (irrevocable).

That is you opinion based on your selective and prejudicial use of evidence.
It is also based on an unwarranted adoption of an expanded semantic field in that you have supposed that the meaning of a single word (gift) in a specific context is much broader than the context itself allows.

Paul was totally logical.

I have not suggested otherwise. It is YOUR attempts at logic that are found to be deficient, not Paul's.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have to totally ignore the fact that Paul said IF, right after he said God has NOT rejected His people. Never!

You're grasping:

"15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (Romans 11:15 NASB)

Their rejection has indeed meant the reconciliation of the world (the gentiles). So we know they were rejected, not 'if' they were rejected as you are saying he is using the word 'if'.

The point is, Paul is explaining that just because they have been rejected, so as to make it so the gentiles are reconciled to God, He has not rejected them to the point of revoking the gifts and calling of Israel. That will never happen because of his promises to the Patriarchs (Romans 11:28 NASB). But you and Freegrace are lifting Romans 11:29 NASB completely out of context (not rightly dividing the word) and insisting that Paul is saying that a saved person can never ever have his eternal life/salvation revoked, no matter what. But you are certainly free to show us where Paul says that in the passage. It's not there.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:
"Gal 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ"

And I was referring to 1 Peter1:23.
PEter did not use the word "seed" in 1Pe 1:23 as Paul used it in Gal 3:16.
Peter and Paul were not talking about the same subject in those two passages.
You have again lifted you "proof texts" out of their contexts; attempted to force them both into the same topic and created the unavoidable nonsense that comes from such inappropriate mangling of scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the temple worship and the promises. (Did they earn that or was it a gift from God?)

"I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel" Numbers 9:18 NASB

He blew it off as not being a gifting and calling of Israel when I shared this with him months back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have to totally ignore the fact that Paul said IF, right after he said God has NOT rejected His people. Never!

He most certainly has rejected them. What he has not done is reject them so as to revoke their gifts and calling. All saved Israelites are the proof of that. Paul points out he is one of those. Elect Israelites to this day walk in the gifts and calling God gave the ancient Israelites. Those gifts and calling have not been revoked.

The nation of Israel as a whole does not walk in those gifts and calling. They were rejected because of their rejection of God. But as Paul points out that rejection has resulted in the reconciliation of the gentiles to God. But the day will come when the nation of Israel as a whole will walk in the gifts and calling of God, not just the elect remnant. They will because those gifts and calling will never be revoked from Israel. (Romans 11:29 NASB). That's hardly a treatise on 'once a person believes they can never lose eternal life'.

 

[chessman]

So we know they were rejected, not 'if' they were rejected.

As I already pointed out, Paul retold the story of Elijah thinking God had rejected all Israel but him (personally). God corrected him. If It seems to you as though God has rejected Israel, that's on you. It's your personal opinion. My point is, the Text doesn't say God has rejected Israel. You do, and tag a verse that says no such thing.

Paul is explaining that just because they have been rejected ...

Paul said they have NOT been rejected. May it never be. You're the only one saying they have been rejected, not Paul.

Their rejection has indeed meant the reconciliation of the world (the gentiles).

I'm confident God has reconciled us (the Gentiles) through Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:18 (LEB) And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, ...
Romans 5:1-2 (LEB) Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God. ​

I have faith God has not rejected His people, never. You have faith He has rejected them. Without Scriptural support.

What's not in the passage is that God has rejected His people. Yet you claim it is.

 

[Jim Parker]

That's because you ignore the context. What you quote is not even a whole sentence.

The context is Paul's refutation of the idea that there is no resurrection.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

Paul teaches that all will be raised.
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
I am making the assumption that you know the meaning of the word "all."
"in Adam all die"
"in Christ all shall be made alive"
There is no indication that the word "all" means "only believers."

Neither 1 Cor 15:52-53 nor Matt 25:46 say or even remotely imply that those who are lost, raised outside of Christ (never being born from above) are raised immortal or with incorruptible bodies.

Then please explain how someone who is not immortal can experience never ending punishment.
Please explain how someone who is not incorruptible can exist in the fires of hell eternally.
Please explain how someone who is not immortal and incorruptible can exist anywhere eternally.

 

[Jim Parker]

"I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel" Numbers 9:18 NASB

He blew it off as not being a gifting and calling of Israel when I shared this with him months back.

Whatever doesn't fit just misinterpret or ignore.
No problem; I got my "proof-texts."

iakov the fool