[_ Old Earth _] Christianity versus Science

[Jim Parker]

The words "Christianity" and "Science" are the names of two very different topics.

Christianity is a religion based on God's self revelation. "Christianity" is the name of that religion based on the person of Jesus of Nazareth and especially, on His incarnation by which God took on human nature to live as a man, living a sinless life, being executed, buried and, most important, rising from death to never-ending life. The context of Jesus' life and teaching was the life and religion of the 1st century Jews of Judea and Galilee which is based in the writings we call the "Old Testament".

"Science" is the word we use to describe the investigation of the universe. It is carried out by the examination of the universe using whatever tools we have developed and whatever understanding we have of how nature (the universe) "works." The understanding of how nature works includes such fields as chemistry, biology, mechanics, astronomy, physics, mathematics. Using these fields of knowledge, scientists form hypotheses which they believe describe the workings of nature and then they devise machines to test their hypotheses. (The largest of such machines is the Large Hadron Collider/CERN. It is the largest machine ever built.)

The object of science is to understand how nature "works." It's subject of investigation is the universe.
The Object of Christianity is the salvation of mankind from eternal separation from God. (Hell) The subject of Christianity is the knowledge of God and His will for mankind.

Nature can be examined by the use of man made instruments from things as simple as a magnifying glass to machines as complicated as the Large Hadron Collider/CERN.

The God of Christianity is not available for investigation or examination by any method designed by man. God is known through His self revelation, predominantly in the words of the Bible but not to the exclusion of illumination of a believer's understanding by the Holy Spirit or through the leading of the Holy spirit.

The attempt to combine these two fields of knowledge is ill-fated from the onset. The two endeavors, to know God and to know how nature "works", are incompatible. While either field may provide inspiration for endeavors in the other, the "tools" of each are useful only in their appropriate arena. Any discovery in the field of science based on "what God revealed to me in the scriptures" would be immediately and properly rejected by the scientific community just as any "scientific proof" of God's existence would immediately and properly rejected by theologians.

The combining of these two fields is a bit like combining building an automobile engine with cooking a souffle'; an absurdity.

Let us render unto science the things that are scientific and to God the things that are theological, OK?

That's how I see it , anyway.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[calvin]

The words "Christianity" and "Science" are the names of two very different topics.

Christianity is a religion based on God's self revelation. "Christianity" is the name of that religion based on the person of Jesus of Nazareth and especially, on His incarnation by which God took on human nature to live as a man, living a sinless life, being executed, buried and, most important, rising from death to never-ending life. The context of Jesus' life and teaching was the life and religion of the 1st century Jews of Judea and Galilee which is based in the writings we call the "Old Testament".

"Science" is the word we use to describe the investigation of the universe. It is carried out by the examination of the universe using whatever tools we have developed and whatever understanding we have of how nature (the universe) "works." The understanding of how nature works includes such fields as chemistry, biology, mechanics, astronomy, physics, mathematics. Using these fields of knowledge, scientists form hypotheses which they believe describe the workings of nature and then they devise machines to test their hypotheses. (The largest of such machines is the Large Hadron Collider/CERN. It is the largest machine ever built.)

The object of science is to understand how nature "works." It's subject of investigation is the universe.
The Object of Christianity is the salvation of mankind from eternal separation from God. (Hell) The subject of Christianity is the knowledge of God and His will for mankind.

Nature can be examined by the use of man made instruments from things as simple as a magnifying glass to machines as complicated as the Large Hadron Collider/CERN.

The God of Christianity is not available for investigation or examination by any method designed by man. God is known through His self revelation, predominantly in the words of the Bible but not to the exclusion of illumination of a believer's understanding by the Holy Spirit or through the leading of the Holy spirit.

The attempt to combine these two fields of knowledge is ill-fated from the onset. The two endeavors, to know God and to know how nature "works", are incompatible. While either field may provide inspiration for endeavors in the other, the "tools" of each are useful only in their appropriate arena. Any discovery in the field of science based on "what God revealed to me in the scriptures" would be immediately and properly rejected by the scientific community just as any "scientific proof" of God's existence would immediately and properly rejected by theologians.

The combining of these two fields is a bit like combining building an automobile engine with cooking a souffle'; an absurdity.

Let us render unto science the things that are scientific and to God the things that are theological, OK?

That's how I see it , anyway.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

G'day, calvin here.
I believe that everything that the Lord created is to His glory.
While I believe that Christianity is about a dynamic relationship with the risen Lord Jesus.
And I believe science is a way of understanding the universe in which we live, My experience of Christianity wants me to point to the marvels and mysteries science uncovers as praise to His glory, and as ample reason for my fellow man to humble himself and bow before the majesty of his creator.
edit added
As a Christian I am eager to learn what science is discovering however I am not interested in embracing the conclusions drawn by non believing researchers trying to fill the gaps.

 

[Jim Parker]

G'day, calvin here.
I believe that everything that the Lord created is to His glory.
While I believe that Christianity is about a dynamic relationship with the risen Lord Jesus.
And I believe science is a way of understanding the universe in which we live, My experience of Christianity wants me to point to the marvels and mysteries science uncovers as praise to His glory, and as ample reason for my fellow man to humble himself and bow before the majesty of his creator.
edit added
As a Christian I am eager to learn what science is discovering however I am not interested in embracing the conclusions drawn by non believing researchers trying to fill the gaps.

Absolutely!
And a different topic: "Discovering the glories of God's creation"?

 

[calvin]

Absolutely!
And a different topic: "Discovering the glories of God's creation"?

G'day, calvin here.
Yes that should work well. Maybe some of the worship from the heavens can be brought to this troubled world.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Kjv

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe some of the worship from the heavens can be brought to this troubled world.

That's what the church is; (or, at least should be) the manifest presence of the Kingdom of God and the revelation of the Eschaton.

 

[Edward]

That's what the church is; (or, at least should be) the manifest presence of the Kingdom of God and the revelation of the Eschaton.

Yep. Shoutin' it from the rooftops. And it is here, ya just cant see it most of the time. I'm convinced that we can, because the Kingdom of God is within us. We are in Christ, and Christ is in us. Literally. I'm goin' off topic, sorry.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yep. Shoutin' it from the rooftops. And it is here, ya just cant see it most of the time. I'm convinced that we can, because the Kingdom of God is within us. We are in Christ, and Christ is in us. Literally. I'm goin' off topic, sorry.

And, right now, from the rooftops, we're waaaaaay off track.

 

[calvin]

And, right now, from the rooftops, we're waaaaaay off track.

Maybe, but is good fellowship to delight in the Lord..yes?

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe, but is good fellowship to delight in the Lord..yes?

yes
But the point of the OP is that science and Christianity are two entirely different and incompatible fields.
I was hoping for some comments along that line.
So far, no luck.


iakov the fool

 

[Papa Zoom]

The words "Christianity" and "Science" are the names of two very different topics.

Christianity is a religion based on God's self revelation. "Christianity" is the name of that religion based on the person of Jesus of Nazareth and especially, on His incarnation by which God took on human nature to live as a man, living a sinless life, being executed, buried and, most important, rising from death to never-ending life. The context of Jesus' life and teaching was the life and religion of the 1st century Jews of Judea and Galilee which is based in the writings we call the "Old Testament".

"Science" is the word we use to describe the investigation of the universe. It is carried out by the examination of the universe using whatever tools we have developed and whatever understanding we have of how nature (the universe) "works." The understanding of how nature works includes such fields as chemistry, biology, mechanics, astronomy, physics, mathematics. Using these fields of knowledge, scientists form hypotheses which they believe describe the workings of nature and then they devise machines to test their hypotheses. (The largest of such machines is the Large Hadron Collider/CERN. It is the largest machine ever built.)

The object of science is to understand how nature "works." It's subject of investigation is the universe.
The Object of Christianity is the salvation of mankind from eternal separation from God. (Hell) The subject of Christianity is the knowledge of God and His will for mankind.

Nature can be examined by the use of man made instruments from things as simple as a magnifying glass to machines as complicated as the Large Hadron Collider/CERN.

The God of Christianity is not available for investigation or examination by any method designed by man. God is known through His self revelation, predominantly in the words of the Bible but not to the exclusion of illumination of a believer's understanding by the Holy Spirit or through the leading of the Holy spirit.

The attempt to combine these two fields of knowledge is ill-fated from the onset. The two endeavors, to know God and to know how nature "works", are incompatible. While either field may provide inspiration for endeavors in the other, the "tools" of each are useful only in their appropriate arena. Any discovery in the field of science based on "what God revealed to me in the scriptures" would be immediately and properly rejected by the scientific community just as any "scientific proof" of God's existence would immediately and properly rejected by theologians.

The combining of these two fields is a bit like combining building an automobile engine with cooking a souffle'; an absurdity.

Let us render unto science the things that are scientific and to God the things that are theological, OK?

That's how I see it , anyway.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

I see it the complete opposite. Science is a thing of God. It cannot exist apart from God. Science requires a mind and logic. We didn't invent logic. It exists and we discovered it. Same as math. Math works because it exists. Just as language exist. We discover how it works. But we didn't invent it apart of God. God created a world whereby all the things that are exist only because of him. Math points to God. Science points to God. Music points to God. All of it, everything in creation points to God.

And we can investigate our world and investigate the claims of the Bible via "man-made" techniques. This is done all the time by people throughout history. The heavens declare the handiwork of God. And what is know of God can be know by what can be seen and unseen. Man is without excuse as a result. Psalm 19: 1 and Romans 1: 19, 20

 

[Papa Zoom]

yes
But the point of the OP is that science and Christianity are two entirely different and incompatible fields.
I was hoping for some comments along that line.
So far, no luck.


iakov the fool

But they are not incompatible. They are very compatible.

 

[Jim Parker]

Science is a thing of God. It cannot exist apart from God.

True. Science cannot exist without the universe including man who likes to investigate the universe.
But that's not what I was talking about.
Science is the investigation of the universe. It doesn't make any difference to a scientist doing research if God made the heavens and the earth or if they just happened.
Science cannot examine, investigate, analyze, or do experiments on God. God is beyond the scope of scientific investigation.

Christianity is a religion based on the theological teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples. It has essential core beliefs including: the deity of Jesus, His virgin birth, His real suffering and death, His resurrection from the dead, His ascension to heaven, His second coming, and the general resurrection of all mankind.

There is no overlap in those two fields. Jesus' deity cannot b e tested by scientific methods. Neither can any of the other core beliefs of Christianity. (Including the teaching that there really is a God.)

And we can investigate our world and investigate the claims of the Bible via "man-made" techniques.

We cannot use science to investigate the following:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
Luk 1:30-35 "And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end." And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband? And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

The starting point of Christianity is that God exists.
That proposal cannot be proven or disproven by scientific methods.

iakov the fool

 

[Papa Zoom]

True. Science cannot exist without the universe including man who likes to investigate the universe.
But that's not what I was talking about.
Science is the investigation of the universe. It doesn't make any difference to a scientist doing research if God made the heavens and the earth or if they just happened.
Science cannot examine, investigate, analyze, or do experiments on God. God is beyond the scope of scientific investigation.

I don't see it that way. I see science has multifaceted . It's ultimately investigation. We can examine, investigate, and analyze data with respect to God's existence. We can do the same for the resurrection. True we can't do falsifiable experiments but that's not the heart of science. If it were, the philosophy of science could not be proven; the rules of science could not be demonstrated to be true.

There are limits to science in addressing the God question and the question of the claims of Christianity. Just as there are limits in theology in addressing science. But to make a blanket statement that science and religion (Christianity in this case) are totally seperate is to ignore the history of science. It's just not the case.

You say,

There is no overlap in those two fields. Jesus' deity cannot b e tested by scientific methods. Neither can any of the other core beliefs of Christianity. (Including the teaching that there really is a God.)

but this is not the case. We can posit what we might expect to see given what we know about God and test our theory with known data. That's the doing of science. We can investigate the universe and examine deep philosophical questions and theological ones as well. We can do this as the history of science has done this very thing.

We cannot use science to investigate the following:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

We can investigate this claim and look to science to see if what the Bible says is compatible with what we know (or think we know) from science. The universe had a beginning. We know this from science. It's pretty clear this is true from a number of things we know. And the Bible is consistent in that it proclaims a beginning. I'm not suggesting that we should use the Bible to prove things that science seeks to explore. I'm saying that the two are not mutually exclusive.

Some scientist reading that verse may have recognized that the Bible is claiming that the universe had a beginning. Ok. Is there a way to scientifically test this or scientifically investigate this claim? Turns out there is. For many, that's the Big Bang.

I'm not willing to give secularists and atheist exclusive rights to science since all science is in reality is investigating God's creation and reporting our findings. It all belongs to God. I don't care if a person doesn't believe in God or not, that alone doesn't excuse them from responsibility to HIM. If the Heavens declare the Glory of God, how do they do that and how can we see His Majesty in the Heavens? Look up and investigate the cosmos. They will show you God.

It doesn't matter what science can or cannot do regarding theological claims. Science, at its core, is about investigations. We can investigate God, His creation, and even use some of the scientific techniques of investigation to look into Biblical claims. The early scientists did just that. They understood that God is a God of order and purpose. They postulated that the universe would have order and that because of that, it could be investigated. Theology led to science. That is a fact that will never change.

 

[Jim Parker]

We can examine, investigate, and analyze data with respect to God's existence.

Science cannot be used to demonstrate that God even exists.

True we can't do falsifiable experiments but that's not the heart of science. If it were, the philosophy of science could not be proven; the rules of science could not be demonstrated to be true.

You are speaking in generalities.
We cannot do ANY experiments about God.
We cannot ANY examination, measurement, or analysis of God.
We cannot apply science to the knowledge of God.

But to make a blanket statement that science and religion (Christianity in this case) are totally seperate is to ignore the history of science. It's just not the case.

Please cite historical cases in which the scientific method has been successfully applied to the investigation of God.

We can posit what we might expect to see given what we know about God and test our theory with known data. That's the doing of science.

Cite an example of when this has been done.

We can investigate the universe and examine deep philosophical questions and theological ones as well.

Those are three different fields of endeavor.
You are making general statements and providing no examples demonstrated that it has ever been done.

Science is the investigation of observable, measurable, objects and/or processes.
Christian Theology is the study of God's self revelation to man.
From my experience, the two fields have nothing in common.

If you can cite some scientific experiment which proved the existence of God or of angels then please do so.

 

[Jim Parker]

Some scientist reading that verse may have recognized that the Bible is claiming that the universe had a beginning. Ok. Is there a way to scientifically test this or scientifically investigate this claim? Turns out there is. For many, that's the Big Bang.

Christianity teaches the creation of the universe "ex nihilo", from nothing.
Science is trying to figure out what the universe was before the "big bang." It does not accept "creation by God from nothing" as "science" because such a proposition cannot possible be tested or examined in any manner because God is not available for scientific examination.
So, yes, I see the correlation between "Let there be light." and "the big bang" but, that is not science.

I'm not willing to give secularists and atheist exclusive rights to science

No one is asking you to do so.
Many scientists are Christians and Jews.

all science is in reality is investigating God's creation and reporting our findings.

Examining God creation is science. Saying the it is, in fact, God's creation, is theology, not science.
You are conflating the two.

It all belongs to God. I don't care if a person doesn't believe in God or not, that alone doesn't excuse them from responsibility to HIM. If the Heavens declare the Glory of God, how do they do that and how can we see His Majesty in the Heavens? Look up and investigate the cosmos. They will show you God.

That is theology, not science.
Science is unable to assess the "glory of God" since science is not able to demonstrate that there is a God even though scientists firmly believe in God. They just can't prove His existence using science.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Christianity teaches the creation of the universe "ex nihilo", from nothing.
Science is trying to figure out what the universe was before the "big bang." It does not accept "creation by God from nothing" as "science" because such a proposition cannot possible be tested or examined in any manner because God is not available for scientific examination.
So, yes, I see the correlation between "Let there be light." and "the big bang" but, that is not science.

No one is asking you to do so.
Many scientists are Christians and Jews.

Examining God creation is science. Saying the it is, in fact, God's creation, is theology, not science.
You are conflating the two.

That is theology, not science.
Science is unable to assess the "glory of God" since science is not able to demonstrate that there is a God even though scientists firmly believe in God. They just can't prove His existence using science.

I'm not going to address the same points over and over. I don't agree with you. I see it differently. Naturalism is confining. It's restrictive. But it hasn't always been that way. And there are plenty of scientists that agree with me (more accurately I formed my views from considering their arguments). http://www.reasons.org Where Science and Faith Converge
http://ericmetaxas.com/media/articles/science-increasingly-makes-case-god/
http://www.reasons.org/articles/does-science-make-the-case-for-god-or-not-part-1-of-2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/newsweek/science_of_god/scienceofgod.htm

The more deeply scientists see into the secrets of the universe, you'd expect, the more God would fade away from their hearts and minds.

But that's not how it went for Allan Sandage.
. "It was my science that drove me to the conclusion that the world is much more complicated than can be explained by science," he says. "It is only through the supernatural that I can understand the mystery of existence."

Something surprising is happening between those two old warhorses science and religion.

Read the rest for yourself and decide for yourself. But there are millions of people that think like I do on this issue. And many of them are scientifically trained or experts in other fields.

Also of interest is this: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/what-is-the-relation-between-science-and-religion

What is the Relation between Science and Religion
William Lane Craig


To illustrate, several years ago I had a debate with a philosopher of science at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver , Canada, on the question “Are Science and Religion Mutually Irrelevant?” When I walked onto the campus, I saw that the Christian students sponsoring the debate had advertised it with large banners and posters proclaiming “Science vs. Christianity.” The students were perpetuating the same sort of warfare mentality that Andrew Dickson White proclaimed over a hundred years ago.

..........

All this is not to make some simplistic and naive judgement like “Science proves that God exists.” But it is to say that science can establish the truth of a premiss in an argument for a conclusion having religious significance.

In summary, we’ve seen six different ways in which science and religion are relevant to each other:

1. Religion furnishes the conceptual framework in which science can flourish.

2. Science can both falsify and verify claims of religion.

3. Science encounters metaphysical problems which religion can help to solve.

4. Religion can help to adjudicate between scientific theories.

5. Religion can augment the explanatory power of science.

6. Science can establish a premiss in an argument for a conclusion having religious significance.

Thus, in conclusion, we have seen that science and religion should not be thought of as foes or as mutually irrelevant. Rather we have seen several ways in which they can fruitfully interact. And that is why, after all, there is such a flourishing dialogue between these two disciplines going on today.

The above articles are worth reading and considering. Particularly the one by William Lane Craig. If you want to read the Washington Post article and the article by William Lane Craig, we can discuss what you don't agree with. But What you've posted above isn't going to change my mind unless you can address the finer point made by the like of Craig. Craig's a smart dude. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/william-lane-craig

 

[Edward]

How can science not at least point towards God, since that God created everything? Jim's right though, science will never be able to provide proof that God exists, because God made it that way. God wants it to be taken on faith that He exists, and is a loving merciful God.

Science both can and can not prove God, it will only allow us to go so far, until we run into something that raises questions that can't be answered by science. Then the conclusion would have to be taken by faith to be the truth.

In the end, my supposition is that science will come together with theology. We just can not or will not see the writing on the wall which can only suggest at this time that there is a God. Just not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

As a born again Christian, I find it easy to see the fingerprints of God, all over the place. Step outside your front door and take a gander around, can you make a tree? What tells those clouds up there to form in that fashion, or to drift how they do? There's maintenance being done on our earth while we are here. Someone at the controls making sure that everything happens as it should. There's Jesus for you, lol.

I look at trees a lot. They are...awesome. Strange even in that they seem to resemble a heart, with its many blood vessels branching off hither and thither. Is that a coincidence? Probably not.

There's something bigger than science afoot. Bigger than a super computer. Science can observe and report, even experiment to test the repeatability of cause & effect and give us a greater understanding of how our earth system works. That something is our hearts and minds. There's a spiritual aspect to gleaning truth from information. Science gives us information, but for it to become knowledge, we need to run it through our heart.

Some will "see" the truth in it, others may not. Depends on the Holy Spirit and the revelation of same, the spiritual cognizance of our beings, so to speak.

God wants us to discover and learn. Our earth system is uniquely positioned for discovery. Like the distance of the earth and moon from the sun, and the size of the moon allows us to study the corona and lights properties when there is an eclipse. If the size of the moon were different, or the distance different, we couldn't do this.

We can't really separate God and science, yet we do. But God isn't going to let Himself be taken into a lab and experimented on for that would throw the requirement for faith out the window.

 

[calvin]

How can science not at least point towards God, since that God created everything? Jim's right though, science will never be able to provide proof that God exists, because God made it that way. God wants it to be taken on faith that He exists, and is a loving merciful God.

Science both can and can not prove God, it will only allow us to go so far, until we run into something that raises questions that can't be answered by science. Then the conclusion would have to be taken by faith to be the truth.

In the end, my supposition is that science will come together with theology. We just can not or will not see the writing on the wall which can only suggest at this time that there is a God. Just not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

As a born again Christian, I find it easy to see the fingerprints of God, all over the place. Step outside your front door and take a gander around, can you make a tree? What tells those clouds up there to form in that fashion, or to drift how they do? There's maintenance being done on our earth while we are here. Someone at the controls making sure that everything happens as it should. There's Jesus for you, lol.

I look at trees a lot. They are...awesome. Strange even in that they seem to resemble a heart, with its many blood vessels branching off hither and thither. Is that a coincidence? Probably not.

There's something bigger than science afoot. Bigger than a super computer. Science can observe and report, even experiment to test the repeatability of cause & effect and give us a greater understanding of how our earth system works. That something is our hearts and minds. There's a spiritual aspect to gleaning truth from information. Science gives us information, but for it to become knowledge, we need to run it through our heart.

Some will "see" the truth in it, others may not. Depends on the Holy Spirit and the revelation of same, the spiritual cognizance of our beings, so to speak.

God wants us to discover and learn. Our earth system is uniquely positioned for discovery. Like the distance of the earth and moon from the sun, and the size of the moon allows us to study the corona and lights properties when there is an eclipse. If the size of the moon were different, or the distance different, we couldn't do this.

We can't really separate God and science, yet we do. But God isn't going to let Himself be taken into a lab and experimented on for that would throw the requirement for faith out the window.

 

[Jim Parker]

Naturalism is confining.

Science is the study of nature.
Naturalism is a philosophical approach to understanding.

It's restrictive.

Science is restricted to the study of natural objects, events, and phenomena which can be quantified.

http://www.reasons.org Where Science and Faith Converge
http://ericmetaxas.com/media/articles/science-increasingly-makes-case-god/
http://www.reasons.org/articles/does-science-make-the-case-for-god-or-not-part-1-of-2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/newsweek/science_of_god/scienceofgod.htm

These are people who are attempting to merge science and faith.
While one can certainly approach science with a Christian worldview, Christianity is not science and science is not Christianity.
One is the study of the universe ("creation" if you please) and the other is the study of God's self-revelation.
And while one might correctly see clear correlations between what scientists discover with what the Bible reveals, the two fields of study cannot be united.
Science is based on observation.
Christianity is based on faith.
You are insisting on combining apples and submarines.

But there are millions of people that think like I do on this issue.

I am certain that there are. There may well be billions.
That is the logical fallacy called: Appeal to Belief
Appeal to Belief is a fallacy that has this general pattern:
1. Most people believe that a claim, X, is true.
2. Therefore X is true.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the fact that many people believe a claim does not, in general, serve as evidence that the claim is true.
So if billions of people, or even all people, believe that the earth is flat, the earth will still not be flat.

But What you've posted above isn't going to change my mind unless you can address the finer point made by the like of Craig.

I don't disagree with Craig.
But that's not what I have been talking about.
The article you cited is about the ways in which religion and science are relevant to each other.
What I said was:
"The object of science is to understand how nature "works." It's subject of investigation is the universe.
The Object of Christianity is the salvation of mankind from eternal separation from God. (Hell) The subject of Christianity is the knowledge of God and His will for mankind."
I also said that science deals with observed objects, events and phenomena which are subject to scientific methods of proof while Christianity deals with information which God has revealed to mankind but which is not subject to scientific methods of proof.
So you can't use the scripture to do scientific evaluations of nature and you cant use a text on quantum physics to do exegesis on scripture.
That does not mean that God did not create the heavens and earth.
It just means that God is not subject to scientific analysis.

jim

 

[Papa Zoom]

Science is based on observation.

Yes. Many things are learned from observation.

Christianity is based on faith.

No. Christianity is not entirely based on faith alone. Christianity is evidential. You can examine the claims of Christianity to find if they are credible or not. Jesus preformed miracles, and observable thing, to demonstrate His authority and to verify the claims He made of Himself. Evidence. The Bible speaks of the evidence of God. Faith is NOT blind, it's evidential. Just because there are things we don't see regarding our faith, doesn't mean that there aren't things we can know from evidence. Romans 1 speaks of this very thing. 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Nonsense. I wasn't claiming that because millions believe it (that science and faith are completely compatible) that it must be true. I never made that claim. So drop the strawman.

I don't disagree with Craig.
But that's not what I have been talking about.

Yes, actually we are.

Science is investigating. God's existence and activity in creation can be investigated using science methods. It's done all the time. Science shows us God whether we like it or not. Observations tell us God exists. Not faith only. Observations. Romans one is crystal clear on that. You will have no excuse before God in believing in Him because he's made it plain to all of us. Not from faith, from what He's created. The invisible properties of the known universe to the visible. All of them, observable to some degree. They show us God. So this idea that science is this and our faith is that is nonsense. There are intersections and those intersections are real, like it or not.