Other gods

[jaybird]

You have to go back to Genesis 6 to see what was going on in Noahs day.

Genesis 6
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.../

the fallen ones from gen is an interesting story. that same story is a common theme among ancient cultures. the same story from all around the world being told by groups of people that never met. in those other stories those fallen ones are always referred to as gods.

 

[th1b.taylor]

i agree it is progressive. and i think all the answers are in the bible. i also think there is much more to it than what we see on the surface.
Luke 8:10
he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’
what secrets is He speaking of?
Matthew 24:37
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
so what was going on in the days of Noah?

That is all fine and true but if one understands the Basics, they will always be careful/conservative with the Word. Before all the scars on my Brain I knew the address' of three times God promised to keep His Word, the Bible, true and with nothing added and nothing removed or left out.

The two I recall now are Duet, 4:2 and at the end of chapter 22 of The Revelation. I believe I have already given you the Prime Rule of Hermeneutics but there is another that makes a good deal of sense of what we read, "When God says a thing, it should always matter. When God says a thing twice it is very important because He has highlighted it for us to notice and if God says it three times, we had better get it right and do not even think of playing with it,"

God has told us, repeatedly. not to mess with His Word but that is what you are doing. This argument is just as silly as the huge debate about Angels cohabiting with the women of Mankind.

Wheen the scriptures are read in the same sense they were written these issues do not pop up.

 

[Free]

i think your mixing up idols and gods. the bible speaks of both, your referring to each instance as idols only. the idols in them self are man made and have no power.

Ex 20 3-4
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

ex 3, we can clearly see says not to worship other gods, we can see it does not say not to create gods, that is mentioned in ex 4.

So, once again you simply dismiss all that I say without addressing anything. Very disappointing. And it's as though you are not even reading the passages of Scripture I have given.

You do realize that you are agreeing with things I have stated, yes? You state above that Exodus 20:4 is saying to not create gods. This is an admission on your part that gods are manmade, which is the very thing you have continually been denying. Is that what you meant to say? I ask because you then go on to contradict that by stating, "i think your (sic) mixing up idols and gods. the bible speaks of both, your (sic) referring to each instance as idols only." Yet let's look once again at the points I made, updated to reflect the additional passages of Scripture which you didn't address:

1. In Exodus, God says to "not make gods of silver...nor...make for yourselves gods of gold."
2. Further I Exodus, the Israelites ask Aaron to make for them gods of gold. Note that this is an idol.
3. After Aaron makes the golden calf, he says, "These are your gods, O Israel." The idol of the golden calf is a god.
4. Further yet in Exodus, and in Leviticus, the Israelites are commanded to "not make for yourself any gods of cast metal."
5. Twice in Deut., Moses tells the people that they will "serve gods of wood and stone," which he says are "the work of human hands." These gods are manmade.
6. In 1 Kings, God says that Jeroboam has "gone and made for [himself] other gods."
7. 2 Chronicles stating that there were golden calves, idols, created as gods. Those were their gods.
8. In Psalms, we have a very clear statement that "all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols."
9. Isaiah saying that to make an idol is to make a god: "he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it."
10. Paul saying "that gods made with hands are not gods".
11. Paul saying that participation in the worship of idols is participation with demons.
12. Paul saying that "an idol has no real existence." Does Paul think that these idols are illusions, that they don't physically exist? Of course not. He could see and touch them. So what could he mean then? That there is no divine being behind them; they represent nothing except what is in the minds of depraved men. Notice that this is entirely consistent with the previous points.

So we have several instances of the Bible equating manmade idols with "the gods of the peoples." And that to worship these idols is to participate with demons, the sources behind any actual power that these idols seem to have.

 

[Free]

The Bible doesn't have to say that "their god was Satan". Given all the Bible has to say about false gods, it goes without saying. That there gods have names is irrelevant. Do you think that when kids give their imaginary friends names, that the imaginary friend must therefore actually exist?

it doesnt have to say??? so the bible does not specify and you think its ok to input what ever works best with the current theology? not sure i agree on that one

Firstly, you are doing that very same thing. Secondly, I have clearly shown that "all the gods of the peoples," which would include the Egyptians, are manmade, "worthless idols" as the Psalmist says. So the Egyptian magicians weren't getting their power from their gods. Thirdly, Paul gives us a big clue as to the source of power behind these false gods, demons.

It seems that my position is biblically based and you are the one using whatever works best to fit with your own theology.

This is just one other use of "god".

this is what i have been trying to explain all along. god is used several different ways. ther4e is only one Most High. but the bible also mentions angels, satan, moses, etc as gods. we never think of these uses as being equal with the Most High.

But it really isn't what you have been saying all along. You have been saying that there are gods that have power, that all the gods of the peoples are actual beings. But I have shown that to be false. This other use which I gave, is a very specific use, for those whom God "has appointed as his representatives and judges."

Please show where the Bible "mentions angels, satan, moses, etc as gods," and we can look at them one at a time.

I will once again state the Christianity is a monotheistic religion--there are no other gods.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (ESV)

Sounds exactly like those passages in Isaiah, doesn't it?

Psa 82: . . .
This is just one other use of "god". It is used here and possibly in a handful of other places, as referring to those persons whom God has appointed as his representatives and judges. This passage is about those whom God appointed as judges but are judging wrongfully.

and these judges,what kind of persons are they, of heaven, earth, humans, angels, other?

Earthly; they're humans.

 

[Free]

Matthew 24:37
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
so what was going on in the days of Noah?

You have to go back to Genesis 6 to see what was going on in Noahs day.

Genesis 6
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.../

No, you don't have to go back to Genesis. Let's look at the context:

Mat 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. (ESV)

The context clearly shows what Matt. 24:37 is speaking of--the unexpected arrival of judgement and Jesus' return. It has absolutely nothing to do with Genesis 6

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

the fallen ones from gen is an interesting story. that same story is a common theme among ancient cultures. the same story from all around the world being told by groups of people that never met. in those other stories those fallen ones are always referred to as gods.

Jaybird, I have a question. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? And on that note do you believe Jesus is the way to God? The one and only way?

I'm trying to make sence of your continuing to hold on to the idea of other gods. If Jesus is the only way to God, and is our Savior, then all other gods, powers, and forces here on earth are meaningless and worthless. Some cultures in the past worshiped the sun. But the sun is not a god, and I highly doubt their worshipping had any effect on the sun shining it's light on them. I hope this contrast makes sence for you. But it really does depend on how you see Jesus. If you see Jesus as not the Son of God, or the only way to God, we have other issues outside of God verses demi-gods (which I think that's what your talking about in these posts. Lesser gods then God).

 

[jaybird]

That is all fine and true but if one understands the Basics, they will always be careful/conservative with the Word. Before all the scars on my Brain I knew the address' of three times God promised to keep His Word, the Bible, true and with nothing added and nothing removed or left out.

The two I recall now are Duet, 4:2 and at the end of chapter 22 of The Revelation. I believe I have already given you the Prime Rule of Hermeneutics but there is another that makes a good deal of sense of what we read, "When God says a thing, it should always matter. When God says a thing twice it is very important because He has highlighted it for us to notice and if God says it three times, we had better get it right and do not even think of playing with it,"

God has told us, repeatedly. not to mess with His Word but that is what you are doing. This argument is just as silly as the huge debate about Angels cohabiting with the women of Mankind.

When the scriptures are read in the same sense they were written these issues do not pop up.

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me

so when i take a scripture like this to mean exactly what it says, and you take it to mean have no other gods because they dont exist which it does not say, you accuse me of changing scripture? interesting.

 

[jaybird]

So, once again you simply dismiss all that I say without addressing anything. Very disappointing. And it's as though you are not even reading the passages of Scripture I have given.

im sorry free, you post so much which makes it easy to get mixed upseperating all the points and responding to everything, im not trying to be rude. what ever parts i trimmed off i thought i adressed, if u think i missed something important tell me again.

You do realize that you are agreeing with things I have stated, yes? You state above that Exodus 20:4 is saying to not create gods. This is an admission on your part that gods are manmade, which is the very thing you have continually been denying. Is that what you meant to say? I ask because you then go on to contradict that by stating, "i think your (sic) mixing up idols and gods. the bible speaks of both, your (sic) referring to each instance as idols only." Yet let's look once again at the points I made, updated to reflect the additional passages of Scripture which you didn't address:

i think the act of worshiping a god and the act of making an idol are 2 different things. gods are not mentioned in ex4

1. In Exodus, God says to "not make gods of silver...nor...make for yourselves gods of gold."
2. Further I Exodus, the Israelites ask Aaron to make for them gods of gold. Note that this is an idol.
3. After Aaron makes the golden calf, he says, "These are your gods, O Israel." The idol of the golden calf is a god.
4. Further yet in Exodus, and in Leviticus, the Israelites are commanded to "not make for yourself any gods of cast metal."
5. Twice in Deut., Moses tells the people that they will "serve gods of wood and stone," which he says are "the work of human hands." These gods are manmade.
6. In 1 Kings, God says that Jeroboam has "gone and made for [himself] other gods."
7. 2 Chronicles stating that there were golden calves, idols, created as gods. Those were their gods.
8. In Psalms, we have a very clear statement that "all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols."
9. Isaiah saying that to make an idol is to make a god: "he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it."
10. Paul saying "that gods made with hands are not gods".
11. Paul saying that participation in the worship of idols is participation with demons.
12. Paul saying that "an idol has no real existence." Does Paul think that these idols are illusions, that they don't physically exist? Of course not. He could see and touch them. So what could he mean then? That there is no divine being behind them; they represent nothing except what is in the minds of depraved men. Notice that this is entirely consistent with the previous points.

So we have several instances of the Bible equating manmade idols with "the gods of the peoples." And that to worship these idols is to participate with demons, the sources behind any actual power that these idols seem to have.

i agree with paul, gods made with hands are not gods, they are idols. an idol is a representation of something else, that "something else" is what i am talking about. and there is no passage that i am aware of that says the being the idol represent does not exist, it always points back to the idol in itself as being nothing.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me

so when i take a scripture like this to mean exactly what it says, and you abletake it to mean have no other gods because they dont exist which it does not say, you accuse me of changing scripture? interesting.

And of the other scriptures that have been quoted. That there is no other God but the LORD. Have you not bypassed those without consideration? There need not be a subtle jab to say "intreasting" at another's expense. But for those of us who are trying to show you the error, it is alarming for many of us. If this is out of stubberness and not wanting to be wrong, let that go. Those are issues of being prideful, and need to be removed so we are not blinded by them. If the verses that point to God being the one and only God. God Almighty. If those are ignored because they are not believed, then let's start again.

Is Jesus our Lord? Is He the Son of God? Is He the one and only way to God?

There is a reason I'm asking this. If it's not clear why then I'll explain it. But first answer the questions please.

 

[jaybird]

Firstly, you are doing that very same thing. Secondly, I have clearly shown that "all the gods of the peoples," which would include the Egyptians, are manmade, "worthless idols" as the Psalmist says. So the Egyptian magicians weren't getting their power from their gods. Thirdly, Paul gives us a big clue as to the source of power behind these false gods, demons.

It seems that my position is biblically based and you are the one using whatever works best to fit with your own theology.

i am going on what the bible says, the passage says the source is in their dark ways.

But it really isn't what you have been saying all along. You have been saying that there are gods that have power, that all the gods of the peoples are actual beings. But I have shown that to be false. This other use which I gave, is a very specific use, for those whom God "has appointed as his representatives and judges."

i never said they had power, and im not saying they dont. i do believe they have influence.

Please show where the Bible "mentions angels, satan, moses, etc as gods," and we can look at them one at a time.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (Satan)
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Exodus 7:1 (Moses)
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
psalm 8:5 (angels)
Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
the word for :heavenly beings is elohim

I will once again state the Christianity is a monotheistic religion--there are no other gods.

i believe Christianity is monotheistic, we worship the one true Most High, we dont mess with the other gods.

Earthly; they're humans.

why would humans be in a "divine" assembly?
why would they be judged to die like men when they are already men? thats not much of a judgment.

 

[jaybird]

No, you don't have to go back to Genesis. Let's look at the context:

Mat 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. (ESV)

The context clearly shows what Matt. 24:37 is speaking of--the unexpected arrival of judgement and Jesus' return. It has absolutely nothing to do with Genesis 6

and what brought that judgment of the flood, they were judged for eating and drinking, getting married, working in fields, i dont think so, gen 6 explains the "why". and thats why Jesus IMO mentions it.

 

[jaybird]

Jaybird, I have a question. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? And on that note do you believe Jesus is the way to God? The one and only way?

yes i believe Jesus is the Son of the Most High.

I'm trying to make sence of your continuing to hold on to the idea of other gods. If Jesus is the only way to God, and is our Savior, then all other gods, powers, and forces here on earth are meaningless and worthless. Some cultures in the past worshiped the sun. But the sun is not a god, and I highly doubt their worshipping had any effect on the sun shining it's light on them. I hope this contrast makes sence for you. But it really does depend on how you see Jesus. If you see Jesus as not the Son of God, or the only way to God, we have other issues outside of God verses demi-gods (which I think that's what your talking about in these posts. Lesser gods then God).

its not so much as "clinging on" its more of a i actually believe what the bible says and i dont toss aside scriptures when they sound irrational in todays culture.

Some cultures in the past worshiped the sun. But the sun is not a god, and I highly doubt their worshipping had any effect on the sun shining it's light on them.

the mayan worship the sun (kinda but it would take to long to explain the details) they thought the sun gave life, yet we can not live without the sun, they also calculated the cycles of the sun (solar flares) and understood the affect this had on all living things on the planet, it would take a thousand years before modern scientist rediscovered this. as well as their procession cycles. sounds like these ancient people were pretty intelligent and sophisticated.

do you believe Jesus is the Christ? that His teachings are true? i only ask because Jesus Himself when dealing with pharisees referred them to the very psalms passage i just mentioned above, the one everyone seems to think are talking about men of earth.
John 10 34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

and what were they talking about that Jesus went to this passage, they were referring to Jesus calling Himself Son of the Most High, and Jesus directed them to the Psalms passage about . . "men" ? that makes no sense.
"—and Scripture cannot be broken—" interesting Jesus would throw that on the end, sounds like He is putting emphasis on the fact that you cant twist this into something else.

 

[jaybird]

And of the other scriptures that have been quoted. That there is no other God but the LORD. Have you not bypassed those without consideration? There need not be a subtle jab to say "intreasting" at another's expense. But for those of us who are trying to show you the error, it is alarming for many of us. If this is out of stubberness and not wanting to be wrong, let that go. Those are issues of being prideful, and need to be removed so we are not blinded by them. If the verses that point to God being the one and only God. God Almighty. If those are ignored because they are not believed, then let's start again.

i believe there is one Most High and gods or false gods. i believe there is a difference.
i apologize for taking the little jab (interesting) at tt after he accused me of changing the scriptures and saying any opinion i had was silly. i was taught not to act like that and when people insult me i get upset and somethings get dragged down to the playground name calling level.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me

so when i take a scripture like this to mean exactly what it says, and you take it to mean have no other gods because they dont exist which it does not say, you accuse me of changing scripture? interesting.

Look, you will likely dislike this but jerking the scriotures aqway from their context and flipping then out lie a setof Flash cards to proof-text your personally construed theology is Spiritual Rape. I have given you the Basics of Bible Understanding and others have tried to help you. Right now I'm kicking the dust off my shoes and forgetting the man that chose to go to the Abyss.

 

[jaybird]

Look, you will likely dislike this but jerking the scriotures aqway from their context and flipping then out lie a setof Flash cards to proof-text your personally construed theology is Spiritual Rape. I have given you the Basics of Bible Understanding and others have tried to help you. Right now I'm kicking the dust off my shoes and forgetting the man that chose to go to the Abyss.

i dont get it, what does context have to do with this. context cant be used to change the meaning of something.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
these commands mean exactly what they say and no one has a problem with them, why do so many have a problem with the 2nd? makes no sense to me. i think it means exactly what it says, no context, no interpretation needed. its a simple command.

 

[Edward]

Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Sure you do have to go back to Genesis. The law of first mention, right. If you want to get the context of something in the NT...you go back to where it was first mentioned. So in the NT, Jesus says...as it was in the days of Noah, so to find out how it was in the days of noah, you go back to Genesis. That's what he asked about. So how was it in the days of Noah? That's what you do.

Now, I understand that you don't believe that there were giants, or fallen Angels taking human wives. That's fine if you don't believe that, to each his own, however, just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean that we throw proper study practice out the window. The law of first mention stands as an effective way to bring things into proper context, and to study the bible. Let the man with the question do his study and do it properly!

I didn't tell the man what to believe, only where to go. You should too brother.

 

[Edward]

the fallen ones from gen is an interesting story. that same story is a common theme among ancient cultures. the same story from all around the world being told by groups of people that never met. in those other stories those fallen ones are always referred to as gods.

Yep, it's those ones that might have a shot at it in pretending to be gods to those old time people because they were created divine beings, and also knew many of the secrets of heaven, so I imagine that it'd be pretty easy for them to fake it, and convince some humans to think that they are gods when they weren't.

I think they were banished to the earth, weren't they? (When they all got kicked out of heaven). If they had to be stuck here, anyway, why not have a bunch of slaves to serve you? That story makes me angry at them. Over our women. Those are our women and they better keep their paws off!

 

[jaybird]

Yep, it's those ones that might have a shot at it in pretending to be gods to those old time people because they were created divine beings, and also knew many of the secrets of heaven, so I imagine that it'd be pretty easy for them to fake it, and convince some humans to think that they are gods when they weren't.

I think they were banished to the earth, weren't they? (When they all got kicked out of heaven). If they had to be stuck here, anyway, why not have a bunch of slaves to serve you? That story makes me angry at them. Over our women. Those are our women and they better keep their paws off!

these gods / fallen angels were IMO presenting themselves as the Most High.
1 Enoch gives more details on this but most dont consider it a "real" scripture. the only other place their mentioned is Jude and one more place that i cant remember, Hebrew bible book with a female sounding name like ruth, esther, ezra or something.

 

[jaybird]

That story makes me angry at them. Over our women. Those are our women and they better keep their paws off!

the taking of women made me think of another story. a bit off topic but interesting to me.this is an account of a spanish missionary in peru in the 1500s. sounds a lot like the Sodom and Gomorrah story.

"After some years the giants were still in this region, and as they had no women of their own and the Indian women of the neighborhood were too small for them, or else because the vice was habitual to them and inspired by the demon, they practiced the unspeakable and horrible sin of sodomy, committing it openly and in public without fear of God or personal shame. The natives say that our Lord God, unwilling to conceal so wicked a sin, sent them a punishment suited to the beastliness of the crime, and when all the giants were together engaged in this accursed practice there came a fearful fire from heaven to the accompaniment of a great noise, in the midst of which a shining angel appeared holding a sharp, bright sword with which he slew them all at a single stroke, and the fire consumed them leaving only a few bones and skulls, which God allowed to remain unconsumed as a token of the punishment."

side note, Sodom and Gomorrah were Canaanite cities, Canaan was cursed, and the spy report said Canaan was full of giants. just a coincidence? kinda makes sense why the Most High would order every living thing, man, woman, child, animal and plant killed.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

yes i believe Jesus is the Son of the Most High.

Thank you for answering. I've seen some people come to Christian forums only to try and start a ruckus. Some even pretending to be Christian, but then squirmed when asked if they believed in Jesus. Sorry to be pushy on the question.

its not so much as "clinging on" its more of a i actually believe what the bible says and i dont toss aside scriptures when they sound irrational in todays culture.

Sounds good. That's a good attribute to put the bible at that standard. For me it's difficult to place other beings or influences as gods. Even though the bible mentions Angels, Satan, and demons, the term "God" I've reserved for the God of Israel for so long. Anything else seems like a lack of respect at best, or at worst corrupting influence and possibly an invitation for those forces to focus on us. (With angels that might not be so bad to have them notice us, just possibly disrespectful to God, to call them gods. With everything else, I can't see any good for them to focus on us, and can't in good conscience call them anything close to God, gods, or anything else that is like those terms. The response of Jesus to the Pharasises saying the scripture calls them gods is one topic I don't grasp. (Expecially when compared to how the Babylon King was punished and humbled to be like a wild animal for boasting about himself as a god).

the mayan worship the sun (kinda but it would take to long to explain the details) they thought the sun gave life, yet we can not live without the sun, they also calculated the cycles of the sun (solar flares) and understood the affect this had on all living things on the planet, it would take a thousand years before modern scientist rediscovered this. as well as their procession cycles. sounds like these ancient people were pretty intelligent and sophisticated.

There seems to be more and more evidance of ancient people having some smart people among them. In that aspect I've come to the conclusion that as a population and as individuals, we aren't any smarter or cleverly then our ancestors.

do you believe Jesus is the Christ? that His teachings are true? i only ask because Jesus Himself when dealing with pharisees referred them to the very psalms passage i just mentioned above, the one everyone seems to think are talking about men of earth.
John 10 34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

and what were they talking about that Jesus went to this passage, they were referring to Jesus calling Himself Son of the Most High, and Jesus directed them to the Psalms passage about . . "men" ? that makes no sense.
"—and Scripture cannot be broken—" interesting Jesus would throw that on the end, sounds like He is putting emphasis on the fact that you cant twist this into something else.

I believe Jesus to be the Christ. Some scripture takes some more understanding and study to grasp, and other scripture is just jarring to get a hold of because of the contrast of how we grew up to understand things. Trust God's wisdom not men's wisdom kind of logic has given me hope a while back. In the way that if I don't understand it it's ok as long as I trust God, and act accordingly to use the practical aspects of our faith (the things we can act on and apply to ourselves). That way we can all learn at our own pace and even misunderstand what God tells us, so long as we are still faithful with what we know and can put into practice. One thing I think the Pharasises learned is that their combined schemes and questions were not smarter or stump worthy for Jesus.