Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

I've been reading along and I don't get what it's all about.
I said what I've had to say and will recluse myself.
You're an excellent poster Nathan.
Continue with your program.

Here's the program:

You could serve satan
You could serve God

You have a choice

You serve satan, you go to live with satan
You serve God, you go to live with God.

Nothing in between.

You have to be serving whom you will serve at the time of death.
Or it doesn't count.

Thanks for the kind words but I really just try to express the faith in me, and so I can't take credit for it. That might sound self humbling to some, but I assure you I'm not that smart. It's a gift that I've been given - and my moto is "use it or loose it".

Sometimes something so simple to some can be so complex to others. Imagine how Christ, who knew what people were thinking before they said anything, felt when talking to them. I couldn't imagine actually knowing someone was trying to trick me, not just really feel like it - but actually know - and then keep on with a conversation with them. That would be hard.

 

[Nathan]

Again, I can only understand what you write, not what mean.


Wow. If Paul would have meant it to be present tense, he could have (and would have) said so. He didn't.



Once again (last time), Paul was letting the reader know that you come came out of one slavery straight into the other. I have no idea why you can't just let the Text be the Text here on this point.


Agreed. Just as 'you' have to be one or the other; alive or dead. There is no other option. I quickly counted at least 10 different ways (verses) that Paul is making this same point throughout Romans 5 and 6. But here's maybe the clearest two, IMO (notice the consistency of past tense):

Romans 6:4, 7 (LEB) Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life.
For the one who has died has been freed from sin. ​

But the 'you' is a physical (body) and non-physical (soul), right??? My point:

The body can be dead yet the soul alive, and vesa-versa, agreed?

I think we have to make the distinction of what alive and dead is though. The body, as we see it, is alive - yet it is actually dead because of sin. Yet the soul is dead(before faith), yet seemingly alive(before faith) because we know it makes decisions - the body does not make decisions for the soul. The soul is the 'control' center of the human.

So we need to decide if we are talking about believers or unbelievers?(Rhetorical unless I am wrong).

I am going to say we are talking about believers because that is who Paul is speaking to. The believer should consider his body dead(even though it is alive) in order to not follow after the lusts it entices our soul with. Christ set us free from that slavery.

How?(Rhetorical) By giving life to our soul. Before faith came, the soul was 'dead' to God - yet it was alive to sin. The death/life Paul speaks of is in regards to God/sin.

So now, we are 'alive' to Christ and His ways.

Romans 6:11 - So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

The "alive" Paul speaks of is not eternal life, but rather just an awareness that we never had before. We were "dead in sins" - that obviously could not have meant our bodies were dead, and it did not mean our soul was dead in the sense it did not function. It simply means we were dead - unable to do anything - in/to God.

So, to answer your question in simpler terms, with the background above; The body can be dead and the soul alive(when we actually physically die), but the soul itself is never "dead" as in unable to do anything - its just unable to do everything before faith comes.

Its a difficult question to answer straight forward because we have to agree on what terms mean what.

If you want to word it another way, I'll take another stab at it? If not, I'd like to ask a question.

Paul speaks in the previous verse(21) of the fruits of the sin man ending in death. I understand that to mean the death(permanent) of the body and soul eventually. He contrasts this with the fruits of being slaves to God resulting in eternal life for the body and soul. So why would we not see the context of that to mean what it says the "end" of the matter is eternal life. Why think that the eternal life begins before what he spoke about earlier ends? He clearly contrasts the two, using the word "end".

 

[JLB]

Rom 6:23 doesn't say "equal to". It says in a very straightforward way, "the gift of God is eternal life".

You misquote the scriptures, and quote only the part that seems to validate your 'theory".

Here is what Romans 6:23 says:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


There is no eternal life except "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are in Him, then later, removed from Him, no longer have the eternal life they once had, when the were "in" Christ Jesus.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Those who are in Him, must remain in Him, or be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I think we have to make the distinction of what alive and dead is though.

I agree we need to define what alive and dead means. (See some clarification below)
In post #200 I asked you this:

Because his other logical argument in these chapters is about death. Do I need to define "death" or can we simply agree that death is the outcome if someone does not have life? Death = no life

You didn't answer then and I'm not sure I understand your definition now.

Can we simply agree to use this definition (Death = not life) recognizing that we also seem to agree on the answer to this question too: "The body can be dead yet the soul alive, and vesa-versa, agreed?"
I'm gonna assume a yes answer to that question unless you disagree.

Logically (and Biblically for that matter), dead is dead. Whether you are talking about bodies or souls. Let the Text determine which. I mean, death simply means not alive (the absence of life), right? Unless you have a better definition. I'm not talking about a conclusion, just a plain straightforward definition of "death".

Prior to our souls (our non physical part) being "born from above" (born again), our bodies are alive (not dead) yet or souls/Spirits are 'dead to sin' (not been made alive via the Spirit of Christ).

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. ​

So we need to decide if we are talking about believers or unbelievers?

Both really in general, but it depends on the exact verse we are talking about or even sometimes the portions thereof when Paul's contrasting the saved with the unsaved in the same verse. But in 6:22, believers sure!
That's why all this jumping around is cumbersome. Unless there's a directly relevant point being made.
But again, I agree with much of what you said in reply and I doubt we'd disagree on who Paul is talking about (believer v unbelievers) when it's clear. My question was not tricky or even necessarily leading anywhere. Just making sure you and I could talk about four different and distinct states (though obviously related):

1. Dead souls (at least 'dead to sin', or no Holy Spirit living in us) yet alive bodies. Some would say 'spiritually dead'. An unbeliever!

2. Alive souls and alive bodies (re-born, born-from-above, so-to-speak). Belivers like you and me.

3. Dead bodies yet alive souls (intermediate state, so-to-speak)

4. Dead bodies and 'dead' souls (the second death, Hell, Matt 10:28).

I am going to say we are talking about believers because that is who Paul is speaking to.

Yes, in 6:22, sure:

Romans 6:22 But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

Yes, absolutely. Believers. State 2 above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I agree.


You're right. You said what I meant better than I did. Thanks.

??? Where do you get the idea that the verb "having been enslaved" is present tense in Paul's letter? It's not. That's simply incorrect. Nor did I say it was present tense. It's past tense in English, from the Aorist tense in Greek. Please be careful with your apologetics. The tenses of these two verbs are exactly the same. If "having been set free from sin" is past tense (and it is), then so is "enslaved to God". They are exactly the same tenses in Greek and English. I even posted the interliner to prove it.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.​

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

From: The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham:

"If you want to express present time, there is no choice in Greek. You just use the Present tense, even though this can have two different aspects –undefined or process."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/53k5eXy


BTW, I scanned the rest of your reply and counted six questions. Do you expect people to answer six of your questions in one reply post (based on an error in the first claim made for "having been enslaved"), while requesting other people only post one question at a time to you? [yes, that's two questions in one post, sorry].

I do have more to say about your reply and answers to all your questions. But I'm afraid that we need to step back again, and agree on letting the actual Text form the basis for your (our) apologetic argument. If you're gonna say things like the tense of "having been enslaved" is present tense, yet it's not, we can stop the conversation.

Chessman,

It's interesting to come to a Christian forum and find lessons in English.

1. "having been freed from sin" means WE ARE FREED FROM SIN RIGHT NOW because of something that happened in the past.

2. "We were once freed from sin" means WE DON'T KNOW IF WE'RE FREED RIGHT NOW. It depends on the next sentence.

So what about this aorist tense I keep hearing about.
Could you please explain exactly what it means?

Could you also explain WHY it's so important?

I ask because I know someone who knows all about it and he tried to explain it to me and I gave up.
Most here believe it means an action that was taken in the past and continues into the future.

What do you say it means?

 

[Nathan]

1. Dead souls (at least 'dead to sin', or no Holy Spirit living in us) yet alive bodies. Some would say 'spiritually dead'. An unbeliever!

2. Alive souls and alive bodies (re-born, born-from-above, so-to-speak). Belivers like you and me.

3. Dead bodies yet alive souls (intermediate state, so-to-speak)

4. Dead bodies and 'dead' souls (the second death, Hell, Matt 10:28).


Yes, in 6:22, sure:

Romans 6:22 But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

Yes, absolutely. Believers. State 2 above.

Your (1) and (2) above would be incorrect, depending on the Biblical passage we read.

(1) is they are dead to God, but very much alive to sin. Think about it, the flesh does not do anything if the soul does not control it. The flesh is just a machine of sorts. People in comas are examples.

(2) is they are alive to God, however, we also see that we should 'consider' ourselves dead to sin. This is interesting because it shows the war within us. It also gives us the understanding of what kind of "life" Paul is speaking of.

Eternal Life cannot coexist with sin.

1John 1
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

However, in paradise, God will dwell with us. Eternal life will be in us, and only because there will be no sin.

Revelation 21 speaks of this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree we need to define what alive and dead means. (See some clarification below)
In post #200 I asked you this:

You didn't answer then and I'm not sure I understand your definition now.

Can we simply agree to use this definition (Death = not life) recognizing that we also seem to agree on the answer to this question too: "The body can be dead yet the soul alive, and vesa-versa, agreed?"
I'm gonna assume a yes answer to that question unless you disagree.

Logically (and Biblically for that matter), dead is dead. Whether you are talking about bodies or souls. Let the Text determine which. I mean, death simply means not alive (the absence of life), right? Unless you have a better definition. I'm not talking about a conclusion, just a plain straightforward definition of "death".

Prior to our souls (our non physical part) being "born from above" (born again), our bodies are alive (not dead) yet or souls/Spirits are 'dead to sin' (not been made alive via the Spirit of Christ).

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. ​

Both really in general, but it depends on the exact verse we are talking about or even sometimes the portions thereof when Paul's contrasting the saved with the unsaved in the same verse. But in 6:22, believers sure!
That's why all this jumping around is cumbersome. Unless there's a directly relevant point being made.
But again, I agree with much of what you said in reply and I doubt we'd disagree on who Paul is talking about (believer v unbelievers) when it's clear. My question was not tricky or even necessarily leading anywhere. Just making sure you and I could talk about four different and distinct states (though obviously related):

1. Dead souls (at least 'dead to sin', or no Holy Spirit living in us) yet alive bodies. Some would say 'spiritually dead'. An unbeliever!

2. Alive souls and alive bodies (re-born, born-from-above, so-to-speak). Belivers like you and me.

3. Dead bodies yet alive souls (intermediate state, so-to-speak)

4. Dead bodies and 'dead' souls (the second death, Hell, Matt 10:28).


Yes, in 6:22, sure:

Romans 6:22 But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

Yes, absolutely. Believers. State 2 above.

If I may,

You and Nathan are saying the same thing with different words.

YOU say that the soul is dead when it is in sin. You mean dead to God.
Nathan is saying that the soul is alive always.

Actually, Nathan would be correct. The soul is always alive. IF we have the spirit of God, then that spirit will affect everything the soul does - and to the end of pleasing God.

Saying that the soul is "dead" when it is not infused with the spirit of God, means that there IS NO SOUL.
This is not true. There is ALWAYS a soul. Even dogs have souls. (a soul is what makes us who we are).

So when we say the soul is "dead" we are using an analogy, comparing it to a soul that is "alive".
But in reality, a soul is always alive.

 

[FreeGrace]

The scriptures plainly show us who will and will not receive eternal life:

Yes, I agree.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Quite plainly.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

And Rom 3:9, 20, and 23 teach that no one is able to earn eternal life.
3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[FreeGrace]

In post no. 244 you said the Holy Spirit leads us, not our faith.
It's our Faith in the Holy Spirit that allows us to be led by Him.

If we do not have faith in the HS, we will not allow Him to lead.
You agreed that you would not let someone you do not have faith in lead you.

Ever more so God, who leads you in the most important matters of your life.

No faith, no belief, no leading by the Holy Spirit.

Does the Bible teach to 'have faith in the Holy Spirit' for any reason?

 

[FreeGrace]

I think your passing over the passages. Jesus plainly states we receive eternal life in heaven.

Could you provide where Jesus plainly stated that?

I can provide where Jesus plainly stated that those who believe HAVE eternal life. John 5:24

If we have it now, why do we receive it there?

Sometimes, the term "eternal life" refers to being IN eternity. But the gift of eternal life is given when one believes.

*lets edit this in here.

Galatians 6:8 (ESV)
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The key here is the word "reap". To "reap what is sown" indicates work or effort. What is reaped from work or effort is eternal reward.

So, to "reap" in eternity, also called "eternal life", is to receive reward for work or effort during this life.

How is it that we will reap eternal life, if we already have it?

See above.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let's look at this a different way.

Can you have eternal life apart from Christ?

Of course not. Why would anyone ask me that?

 

[FreeGrace]

It is Christ. He is the eternal life. Do you posses Him, or does He posses you?

The Bible says "Christ IN you" in Col 1:27 - To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Now, can God physically inhabit you when there is sin? No, but He can through faith. So until you are completely pure, God cannot fully abide in you - except through faith.

This seems to be a kind of flip-flop. First, you ask if God CAN physically inhabit one in sin. Then the phrase "cannot FULLY abide in you".

It's either one or the other. There is nothing about partial inhabiting in Scripture.

And Jesus was clear about how long the Holy Spirit would be with us in John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Therefore, God the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves the believer, or Jesus was wrong, which I reject.

Once you put off this flesh, then you will put off the man of sin, you will be transformed and no longer will there be any sin.

You will then be in perfect condition for God to live in you, and the result of that is eternal life.

Can a believer achieve a state of continual sinlessness during this life?

 

[FreeGrace]

Lol, how predictable.
I knew someone would read my post through the lens of OSAS.

Through the lens of biblical eternal security, to be exact. ;)

Eternal life is, and always will be never ending.

But for those who see through the lens of OSNAS, this eternal life just goes somewhere else and exists all by itself, somehow.

What has not been determined in this life is if the Christian will continue to possess the life that never ends.

I believe the Bible has made that absolutely clear. Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Jesus promised that those He gives this gift (eternal life) will never perish (John 10:28). Believers have been born again of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23). All of these verses agree and teach that salvation cannot be lost.

If a Christian stops believing, God's eternal life will most certainly continue into eternity....without him.

Does it have a body? Will it be recognizable as the "former owner" of it? For example, say that in the future you or I lost our faith due to terrible circumstances. Would those who know us and go to heaven recognize our "lost" eternal life there?

Where would one find the teaching that one's eternal life goes to heaven without the "former owner" of it in the Bible??

Eternal life doesn't stop being eternal just because someone stops possessing it.

OK, so it continues on. So please answer the questions that your claim begs.

 

[chessman]

The "alive" Paul speaks of is not eternal life, but rather just an awareness that we never had before.

Are you sure? I mean let's exam the reasons for your concluding that 6:11 does not speak of eternal life (of the soul at least), not just because I disagree, but because maybe you have better reasons for your conclusion than I do.

the soul itself is never "dead" as in unable to do anything - its just unable to do everything before faith comes.

Are you sure, do you believe your soul was alive before your body was alive, for example? I mean really, your soul was alive before your parents conceived you? Your conclusion here also seems out of line with the evidence (both Biblical and natural).

Actually, Nathan would be correct. The soul is always alive

Same question. Before your parents conceived you, was your soul alive, in your opinion?

 

[FreeGrace]

The danger being that fruitless branches (land, etc.) that are fruitless because of unbelief are unbelieving branches that will be cut out of Christ's kingdom, just as the Israelites were, and will be burned on the Day of Judgment.

Christ IS eternal life (1 John 5:20 NASB). If you are cut out and away from Christ, you can not have eternal life. People (branches) that don't have eternal life in them will be burned, not saved.

That would mean that Jesus' teaching in John 10:28 is not true. He said He gives them (His sheep on the basis of faith in Him - John 10:9) eternal life and they WILL NEVER PERISH. I noticed no conditions for never perishing. Yet the OSNAS view adds many conditions to never perishing. But Jesus never did any conditions.

iow, once the free irrevocable gift of eternal life is given to a person, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just to clairify, I'm saying it's present tense in its essence, not in the actual Greek.

Can we just ignore the Greek grammar and make up and form our own opinions about what the text says?

The "essence" of the text is what the text says, not how we feel about it.

 

[chessman]

Your (1) and (2) above would be incorrect, depending on the Biblical passage we read.

Would you please provide me with your definition of "dead"? I don't mean your conclusion of what it means from a salvific sense or it's implications upon any particular doctrines. I mean just a simple, non-biased definition of what dead means.

I have proposed the following. "dead = not alive" If you have a better definition, then please state it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Does the Bible teach to 'have faith in the Holy Spirit' for any reason?

Do you mean for a particular, special, reason
Or
at all?

Let's see. I'd say yes to both.

The Holy Spirit is God. He does have His own special works.
Yes. We are to have faith in God, so I believe the Holy Spirit qualifies for that faith.

 

[Nathan]

If I may,

You and Nathan are saying the same thing with different words.

YOU say that the soul is dead when it is in sin. You mean dead to God.
Nathan is saying that the soul is alive always.

Actually, Nathan would be correct. The soul is always alive. IF we have the spirit of God, then that spirit will affect everything the soul does - and to the end of pleasing God.

Saying that the soul is "dead" when it is not infused with the spirit of God, means that there IS NO SOUL.
This is not true. There is ALWAYS a soul. Even dogs have souls. (a soul is what makes us who we are).

So when we say the soul is "dead" we are using an analogy, comparing it to a soul that is "alive".
But in reality, a soul is always alive.

Sounds so simple doesn't it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can we just ignore the Greek grammar and make up and form our own opinions about what the text says?

The "essence" of the text is what the text says, not how we feel about it.

Amen!