Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

I don't mind conversing with you. But there comes a point when it just does not make any sense. The passage in Galatians clearly states that we will reap eternal life, not reap rewards of things done while we have eternal life.

Galatians 6:8 - For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you wish to continue the conversation, lets do. But there is no way you can say that this doesn't mean that we will reap eternal life, when it clearly states it does. I guess you can say that's not what it says, but that's what I am reading. Feel free to post different versions of the passage if you like. Maybe that will help you see the thought of Paul?

Yes brother, Paul in Galatians 6, continues what he is teaching the The Church from the previous chapter, as he does in all his letters to the Churches.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warned and warned these people, time and again, about practicing the works of the flesh.


Inheriting the kingdom of God, is what we all hope for on that Day.

The meaning of this phrase is unmistakable.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34


Those who do not inherit the kingdom, will hear these terrifying words from the Lord:


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


Paul teaches us over and over about those who obey unrighteousness:


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[Nathan]

I never said it doesn't say "reap eternal life". I explained what it means. If we receive eternal life from what we "reap", how is that NOT salvation by works, which is specifically refuted by Scripture?

We don't reap eternal life from what we "reap". We reap eternal life from what we "sow".

You pose a great question, because salvation by works is absolutely a lie.

This "sowing" is the seed of faith. However, we actually do not sow it ourselves, God does in our hearts. What we do, is believe that He sowed this seed of faith, and then walk in that faith - we grow up in sanctification - and then, the fruit from this seed of faith, is Christs righteousness. So, the "end" of this all - as Paul puts it - is eternal life.

If eternal life was the beginning of this process, then Paul would not say it is the end - nor would he say we "reap" it. You cannot reap something until you sow something. I will never get a tomato until I plant a tomato seed. But, even then, the tomato plant has to grow - then the tomato fruit grows on the plant - then I reap the tomato fruit, once its ripe. Its a process.

Eternal life seed(faith) is planted in us. It grows into a faith plant. It starts to grow faith fruit. And then, in the end, we reap the end result - Eternal life.

Romans 6:22 - But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

 

[chessman]

So what about this aorist tense I keep hearing about.
Could you please explain exactly what it means?

From: "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and wanted to share this quote with you.

"The Future, Imperfect and Aorist are tenses, to put alongside the Present. • Greek indicates tense by altering the form of the verb, while in English we add extra words. Thus, (note the added) means ‘we will untie’. • The different tenses communicate both the time when the action is taking place (Present, Future, Past etc.) and the aspect (the nature of the action –whether it was a process, or completed etc.). • The Present, Future, Imperfect and Aorist are the four common tenses –the final two will be added much later (Chapter 16)."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/72zEEyZ

Hi - I'm reading "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and wanted to share this quote with you.

"6.3 THE MEANING OF THE TENSES Greek tense Time Aspect English equivalent Present Present Process I am untying or Undefined or I untie Future Future Undefined I will untie Imperfect Past Process I was untying Aorist Past Undefined I untied"

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/7infTdc

Interesting quote from the book I’m reading:
http://a.co/8fAQ7La

Could you also explain WHY it's so important?

Yes. Because it was important to the authors of the Greek Texts.

I ask because I know someone who knows all about it and he tried to explain it to me and I gave up.

Okay, but if he knew all about it and couldn't explain it to you in an understandable way, then I don't have a prayer to be able to. I simply know what some of the educational materials say about it and can link some of that material to you for free. I'm not a 1st Century Greek speaker.

Most here believe it means an action that was taken in the past and continues into the future.

What do you say it means?

If I may,

You and Nathan are saying the same thing with different words.

I agree in many areas, we are. It's frustrating, honestly, given the limitation of forum interactions. I wish we were face-to-face talking. We'd probably be 90%or more in agreement if we were understanding each other better. It's obvious we all love the Lord, so the 5% is lagniappe anyway.

Actually, Nathan would be correct. The soul is always alive. IF we have the spirit of God, then that spirit will affect everything the soul does - and to the end of pleasing God.

Pre-conception, was your soul alive in your opinion?

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's the entire post.

↑Nathan says:
Let's look at this a different way.

Can you have eternal life apart from Christ?

FreeGrace says:
Of course not. Why would anyone ask me that?

FreeGrace,
You've solved the whole riddle !!

Wow.

You said we cannot have eternal life apart from Christ.

Because the Bible says that.

So if we are IN CHRIST, we have eternal life.

Because the Bible says that.

If we are NOT IN CHRIST we will not have eternal life.

Right. Only believers are IN CHRIST. Eph 1:13

No matter at what point in our lives we are without Christ.

Only those who have never believed in Him.

We only have eternal life IF WE REMAIN IN CHRIST till our day of death.

Nope. We have no ability to break the seal that God has put on His own possession for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

When the Bible speaks of abiding in Christ, it is speaking of fellowship with Him. Not the permanent relationship with Him.

iow, where does the Bible teach that our relationship with Christ can be severed? What can be severed is fellowship.

Question: can you sever your relationship with your parents? And I don't mean fellowship. I mean change the DNA you received from them, which proves they are your parents. So, relationship between parent and child cannot be broken. However, it is the STATE of that relationship that can change, and I'm referring to fellowship. That's the issue in "abiding in Christ". Or to "remain in Him".

If we are to have eternal life, we are to come to Jesus. Only HE has eternal life. Outside of HIM there is no eternal life.

No argument.

2. He who DOES NOT HAVE THE SON, does not have THE life.
Does a fallen away believer have the Son?[/QUOTE]
Yep. Jesus promised that those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

Can the sin of blasphemy reside in the same space with Jesus?

Believers are capable of all sins.

If the answer is NO, then that fallen away believer has lost eternal life.

Please cite any verse that plainly warns of loss of eternal life then.

Everyone who BELIEVES (present tense, right now) in me will never die.

I know about your opinion of the Greek, but both Jesus (Luke 8:12) and Paul (Acts 16:31, Rom10:9) use the aorist tense in relation to being saved, and Jesus used the present tense for believe in Luke 8:13 where he then added "for a while", demonstrating that the present tense doesn't mean "for the rest of your life".

I'm not advocating apostasy here. I have always been clear that any believer who becomes unfaithful or disobedient will be under the severe hand of God for discipline, which can include a painful physical death (1 Cor 5:5).

We have righteousness through Jesus Christ.
Does a fallen away believer have his own righteousness? No. He loses it when he falls away.

Every human has "his own righteousness". But that's not the issue. The issue is whether we have the righteousness of Christ. Which is imputed to those who believe in Him for eternal life.

We must OBEY Him to have eternal life.

The Bible says to believe in Him for eternal life.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The one verse about "obeying" Him is found in John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NASB

NIV renders 'apeitho' as "rejects". Greek lexicons define 'apeitho' as "disbelieve".

Does one who has fallen away OBEY Jesus? No. He is living for himself and has abandoned God.

We have eternal life as long as we remain IN CHRIST.

Eternal Life = The God life within us.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

This is taught in 2 Cor 5:10 regarding the Bema. For eternal rewards.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

We've been over this repeatedly. Rom 3:9-11 and 3:23 teach that no one can fulfill "by patient continuance in doing good". And Rom 3:20 teaches that no one will be justified (saved) by observing the Law which would be doing good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only those who really want to understand what was written originally.
Ah. Yes. ONLY those who know Greek will ever understand the N.T.
What a shame for the rest of us. We will never REALLY understand it.
Only a select few will.
That wasn't very nice of God.

Let's not.
Oh my. You don't like Italian?? It's such a beautiful language.
I'm very sorry you can't read the N.T. in Italian.
If you want to REALLY understand it, it might help.


There is nothing in the Greek to suggest this is just "momentary". If there is evidence otherwise, please share.

Please share that it isn't "momentary". Where does it say that if I believe in the LORD, ONE TIME IN MY LIFE, I will be saved forever. In those words, please. This is what I read in the N.T.
A lot of IF'S.
Here are just two:

2 Peter 1:5-10
Colossians 1:21-23

Oh. And I'm not a Greek SCHOLAR, so please don't even mention it. Thanks.


The "end" here isn't "end of life", but in context to th rest of v.22, but the "end" or completion of our faith. Meaning, the moment one actually understands the gospel and believes it, that is the completion of faith. That's when one receives or HAS eternal life. Jesus taught this plainly in John 5:24. He said "HAS eternal life" and said it in the present tense.

Nice that you like the PRESENT TENSE when it suits you. HAS eternal life. You like that.
What about BELIEVES in Jesus? Is THAT not the present tense???
You seem to pick and choose. The English rule remains the same to whatever topic the tense applies to. We cannot change it according to our desire.

Oh. And WHEN is the completion of our faith? It is not when one understands the bible.
I had never read the bible when I met Jesus. So are you saying that I was not born again until about 10 years later when I started to study the bible and understand it???

John 3:16 tell me I'm to believe in Jesus, not understand the bible.

HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN THE PRESENT TENSE.
as long as ONE BELIEVES in Jesus, in the present tense.

We read the same principle in 1 Peter 1:9 - Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. KJV
NASB - "outcome" NIV - "goal"

Yes. The goal is heaven. If we HOLD FAST.
Philippians 3:12

It does not mean "end of your life" in either verse. The Greek word is the same in both verses; 'telos'.
No Greek please.

Both the outcome or goal of faith is salvation. That's WHEN one is saved; WHEN they believe.


Actually, we are born spritually dead, separated from God, and in need of eternal life. Rom 5:12-15.
Thanks for the info. I do appreciate it.

We don't die spiritually every time we sin. Spiritual death is our condition at birth. Even those who believe we are born without sin, have to admit that at the first sin, they die spiritually.

So it's an abuse of Rom 6:23 to think that we die spiritually every time we sin.
Who inferred that we do???

Yes, the gift is given only to believers, those who have been sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14


Jesus taught in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE eternal life.
Oooh. That pesky present tense again.


Where does the Bible teach that the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit can by any means be broken?

Instead, the Bible teaches that those who are sealed IN HIM are guaranteed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

This isn't teaching about continuing to believe in order to be saved, but about "God's possession", which is EVERYONE who has been sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

These 2 verses show that our salvation isn't about our lifestyle but about God's promises to His possessions.

So salvation isn't about lifestyle.
Good.
Maybe I could start living like those folk in 1 Corinthians.
Have my cake and eat it too.


Jesus said NOW, when we believe, in John 5:24.

Click to Expand

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 6:23 does not say EXACTLY say "the gift of is eternal life"

Here is what Romans 6:23 says:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

True. The verse doesn't say "the gift of is eternal life". It EXACTLY DOES say "the gift of God is eternal life", just as I have claimed.

There is no eternal life except "in" Christ Jesus our Lord.

I never said there was either.

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yep.

Those who are in Him, then later, removed from Him, no longer have the eternal life they once had, when the were "in" Christ Jesus.

The Bible teaches that WHEN one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14). I think everyone understands what a "guarantee" is and means.

 

[GodsGrace]

="FreeGrace, post: 1314639, member: 7355"]Wow.


Because the Bible says that.


Because the Bible says that.


Right. Only believers are IN CHRIST. Eph 1:13


Only those who have never believed in Him.


Nope. We have no ability to break the seal that God has put on His own possession for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

When the Bible speaks of abiding in Christ, it is speaking of fellowship with Him. Not the permanent relationship with Him.

iow, where does the Bible teach that our relationship with Christ can be severed? What can be severed is fellowship.

Question: can you sever your relationship with your parents? And I don't mean fellowship. I mean change the DNA you received from them, which proves they are your parents. So, relationship between parent and child cannot be broken. However, it is the STATE of that relationship that can change, and I'm referring to fellowship. That's the issue in "abiding in Christ". Or to "remain in Him".


No argument.

2. He who DOES NOT HAVE THE SON, does not have THE life.
Does a fallen away believer have the Son?

Yep. Jesus promised that those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.


Believers are capable of all sins.


Please cite any verse that plainly warns of loss of eternal life then.


I know about your opinion of the Greek, but both Jesus (Luke 8:12) and Paul (Acts 16:31, Rom10:9) use the aorist tense in relation to being saved, and Jesus used the present tense for believe in Luke 8:13 where he then added "for a while", demonstrating that the present tense doesn't mean "for the rest of your life".

I'm not advocating apostasy here. I have always been clear that any believer who becomes unfaithful or disobedient will be under the severe hand of God for discipline, which can include a painful physical death (1 Cor 5:5).


Every human has "his own righteousness". But that's not the issue. The issue is whether we have the righteousness of Christ. Which is imputed to those who believe in Him for eternal life.


The Bible says to believe in Him for eternal life.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The one verse about "obeying" Him is found in John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NASB

NIV renders 'apeitho' as "rejects". Greek lexicons define 'apeitho' as "disbelieve".

Does one who has fallen away OBEY Jesus? No. He is living for himself and has abandoned God.

We have eternal life as long as we remain IN CHRIST.

Eternal Life = The God life within us.[/QUOTE]





FG

You say all we have to do to have eternal life is believe in Him.

What does Believe mean???

 

[FreeGrace]

FG
I didn't give you a yes or no answer.

You asked if we're to have faith in the Holy Spirit.

No, I asked for Scripture that teaches that we must have in the Holy Spirit.

My answer is that the Holy Spirit is God and we're to have faith in God, so my answer is yes.

God is Three in One. Where does the Bible specifically say we must have faith in the Holy Spirit? I can show verses that do say we must have faith in God (the Father) and in God the Son.

If you need a verse for this, you have deeper misunderstandings than I thought...

Loose translation: I don't have any verse. ;)

Here's one thought:
Do you doubt that the Holy Spirit is God?

Silly question.

 

[FreeGrace]

My dear FreeGrace

One does NOT have to know Greek to read the bible.

Correct. But in order to fully understand the Bible, one must understand what the Greek means.

Isn't it wonderful that it was translated to us from Hebrew and Greek?
I think so.

I do too. And it's wonderful that we have so many helpful links in order to understand both the Hebrew and Greek.

 

[JLB]

This is taught in 2 Cor 5:10 regarding the Bema. For eternal rewards.

You will have to do better that state your opinion, while ignoring the words of scriptures, and misquoting the scriptures you choose to cherry pick.

We've been over this repeatedly. Rom 3:9-11 and 3:23 teach that no one can fulfill "by patient continuance in doing good". And Rom 3:20 teaches that no one will be justified (saved) by observing the Law which would be doing good.

This is what the Holy Spirit says through Paul:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warned and warned these people, time and again, about practicing the works of the flesh.


Inheriting the kingdom of God, is what we all hope for on that Day.

The meaning of this phrase is unmistakable.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Those who do not inherit the kingdom, will hear these terrifying words from the Lord:

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


Paul teaches us over and over about those who obey unrighteousness:


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

wondering said: ↑
So what about this aorist tense I keep hearing about.
Could you please explain exactly what it means?

From: "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and wanted to share this quote with you.

"The Future, Imperfect and Aorist are tenses, to put alongside the Present. • Greek indicates tense by altering the form of the verb, while in English we add extra words. Thus, (note the added) means ‘we will untie’. • The different tenses communicate both the time when the action is taking place (Present, Future, Past etc.) and the aspect (the nature of the action –whether it was a process, or completed etc.). • The Present, Future, Imperfect and Aorist are the four common tenses –the final two will be added much later (Chapter 16)."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/72zEEyZ

Hi - I'm reading "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and wanted to share this quote with you.

"6.3 THE MEANING OF THE TENSES Greek tense Time Aspect English equivalent Present Present Process I am untying or Undefined or I untie Future Future Undefined I will untie Imperfect Past Process I was untying Aorist Past Undefined I untied"

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/7infTdc

Interesting quote from the book I’m reading:
http://a.co/8fAQ7La

Some other excellent helps in understanding Greek grammar:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm
http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm
http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson29.htm[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

Click to Expand

Was there a question in there?

 

[JLB]

True. The verse doesn't say "the gift of is eternal life". It EXACTLY DOES say "the gift of God is eternal life", just as I have claimed.

Since you refuse to quote the scripture here it again, the whole scripture, that is Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

You seem to skip over the part that says the wages of sin is death.
You leave out the part that says "in Christ Jesus our Lord".


Here is what you would try to convince the unlearned, so as to ensnare them in an unbiblical doctrine.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Once a person is in Christ Jesus, they must remain in Christ Jesus or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

From: "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and wanted to share this quote with you.

"The Future, Imperfect and Aorist are tenses, to put alongside the Present. • Greek indicates tense by altering the form of the verb, while in English we add extra words. Thus, (note the added) means ‘we will untie’. • The different tenses communicate both the time when the action is taking place (Present, Future, Past etc.) and the aspect (the nature of the action –whether it was a process, or completed etc.). • The Present, Future, Imperfect and Aorist are the four common tenses –the final two will be added much later (Chapter 16)."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/72zEEyZ

Hi - I'm reading "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham and wanted to share this quote with you.

"6.3 THE MEANING OF THE TENSES Greek tense Time Aspect English equivalent Present Present Process I am untying or Undefined or I untie Future Future Undefined I will untie Imperfect Past Process I was untying Aorist Past Undefined I untied"

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/7infTdc

Interesting quote from the book I’m reading:
http://a.co/8fAQ7La




Yes. Because it was important to the authors of the Greek Texts.


Okay, but if he knew all about it and couldn't explain it to you in an understandable way, then I don't have a prayer to be able to. I simply know what some of the educational materials say about it and can link some of that material to you for free. I'm not a 1st Century Greek speaker.




I agree in many areas, we are. It's frustrating, honestly, given the limitation of forum interactions. I wish we were face-to-face talking. We'd probably be 90%or more in agreement if we were understanding each other better. It's obvious we all love the Lord, so the 5% is lagniappe anyway.


Pre-conception, was your soul alive in your opinion?

Chessman,
Do you know any foreign language?
You can't learn it by googling it.

If you think the aorist tense is easy to understand and simple, then you don't know it very well.
We don't have enough initials after our names to deal with this.
Maybe you do. I doubt it though. From what you post about it.

I already answered about the soul at preconception. You'll come across it eventually.

You like google? Here:

Aorist (/ˈeɪ.ərᵻst/; abbreviated AOR) verb forms usually express perfective aspect and refer to past events, similar to a preterite. Ancient Greek grammar had the aorist form, and the grammars of other Indo-European languages and languages influenced by the Indo-European grammatical tradition, such as Middle Persian, Sanskrit, Armenian, the South Slavic languages, and Georgian also have forms referred to as aorist.

The word comes from Ancient Greek aóristos "indefinite",[1] as the aorist was the unmarked (default) form of the verb, and thus did not have the implications of the imperfective aspect, which referred to an ongoing or repeated situation, or the perfect, which referred to a situation with a continuing relevance; instead it described an action "pure and simple".[2]

Because the aorist was the unmarked aspect in Ancient Greek, the term is sometimes applied to unmarked verb forms in other languages, such as the habitual aspect in Turkish.[3]
Wikipedia


Most tell me it means an action that was taken in the past and continues to the future.
The above disputes that.
In fact, that is not what the aorist tense is.
It describes an action, but does not describe when it happened - that must be gleaned.

Anyway, we're talking through our teeth here.
We can use our English bible to discuss --- we don't need to know any Greek.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since you refuse to quote the scripture here it again, the whole scripture, that is Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

You seem to skip over the part that says the wages of sin is death.
You leave out the part that says "in Christ Jesus our Lord".


Here is what you would try to convince the unlearned, so as to ensnare them in an unbiblical doctrine.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Once a person is in Christ Jesus, they must remain in Christ Jesus or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct. But in order to fully understand the Bible, one must understand what the Greek means.


I do too. And it's wonderful that we have so many helpful links in order to understand both the Hebrew and Greek.

Could you please study the Baha'i faith by going to links and then come back here and tell us all about it?

That would be interesting.
Could one learn about the Christian faith by going to links?

Links may make one feel like he knows everything...
But really one doesn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yep. Jesus promised that those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

Believers are capable of all sins.

Please cite any verse that plainly warns of loss of eternal life then.

Yes, that is my question.

FG

You say all we have to do to have eternal life is believe in Him.

What does Believe mean???

NT:4100
; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):
KJV - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Those who have entrusted their souls to Christ receive the free gift of eternal life. John 3:16

 

[FreeGrace]

You will have to do better that state your opinion, while ignoring the words of scriptures, and misquoting the scriptures you choose to cherry pick.

This charge has yet to be shown. Where have I misquoted any Scripture?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep. Jesus promised that those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.


Believers are capable of all sins.


Please cite any verse that plainly warns of loss of eternal life then.


I know about your opinion of the Greek, but both Jesus (Luke 8:12) and Paul (Acts 16:31, Rom10:9) use the aorist tense in relation to being saved, and Jesus used the present tense for believe in Luke 8:13 where he then added "for a while", demonstrating that the present tense doesn't mean "for the rest of your life".

I'm not advocating apostasy here. I have always been clear that any believer who becomes unfaithful or disobedient will be under the severe hand of God for discipline, which can include a painful physical death (1 Cor 5:5).


Every human has "his own righteousness". But that's not the issue. The issue is whether we have the righteousness of Christ. Which is imputed to those who believe in Him for eternal life.


The Bible says to believe in Him for eternal life.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The one verse about "obeying" Him is found in John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NASB

NIV renders 'apeitho' as "rejects". Greek lexicons define 'apeitho' as "disbelieve".

Does one who has fallen away OBEY Jesus? No. He is living for himself and has abandoned God.

We have eternal life as long as we remain IN CHRIST.

Eternal Life = The God life within us.

FG

You say all we have to do to have eternal life is believe in Him.

What does Believe mean???[/QUOTE]


THE "CLICK TO EXPAND" IS NOT MY POST AND I COULDN'T CORRECT IT......