Bible Study Creator Jesus In The Old Testament.

[Chopper]

As a Team, JLB, Nathan, and me (Chopper) are presenting this study thread on just how much involvement did Christ Jesus have in the Old Testament. Our aim is to exalt the Name and Person of our Lord (Master Owner) Jesus, the Son of the living God.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I (Chopper) have found that a lot of Christians have never learned just how much Jesus was involved in the Old Testament (Old Covenant). Then there are those like JLB, Nathan, and me who do know about these things and find it a rich spiritual blessing to study our Creative Son of God.

Please join us as we journey into the past to spiritually walk with our Master as He accomplishes so very much during time passed. The two passages of Scripture are our foundation of this study. What do you folk know about what these Scriptures teach?

 

[Nathan]

Well, I'll jump in with one that I find quite wonderful and a great sign that God has a plan.

Genesis 15:1-17
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great. ”But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” But he said, “O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?” He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for fourhundred years. But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amoritesis not yet complete.”

When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.

I find it interesting when you look at the meaning of the words used for cutting the animals in half, and placing them against each other. The words used symbolize the covenant of all times - we often refer to as 'old' and 'new'. However, when you see it, they were 'one' animal. Only the birds did not get cut in half.

How does this relate to Christ? He is seen here as a smoking fire pot and flaming torch. The 'fire pot' can throw some people off because its actually what we would call an oven.

The 'visual' picture that Abraham saw was this all consuming fire and bright light. In essence, you could really picture it as the sun. I think we often translate this to see a modern stove and torch walking side by side - - but in reality these are just a simple mans ways of saying that whatever it was, it was very hot and very bright.

This is Christ. He is the totality of the covenant with Abraham - which includes the 'old' and 'new'.

Anyways, that's just a brief overview of one instance of Christ in the OT.

 

[th1b.taylor]

When I first was converted, would tell me they could see Christ Jesus somebody in an Old Testament passage and I would think, "They must be drinking the Kool Aide." But then I prayerfully read the book through and I saw Jesus being recorded all through the Old Testament, so much so that it Changed my view of the scriptures. From that study grew my telling people that the Bible ends with Malachi and the God ordained 27 Commentaries on the Bible.

This study will be good for a lot of people if they will join in and participate and if they have any version that has the Thompson's Chain Reference it can be

 

[BCsenior]

Jesus also is the Sustainer of all things NOW ...
Colossians 1:17 “And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
Hebrews 1:3 “upholding all things by the word of His power”
If you understand how an atom works, you will understand ...
If Jesus says, "All electrons slow down!", all of a sudden there is only empty space.
If Jesus says, "All electrons speed up!", all of a sudden there is only empty space.

 

[Chopper]

One morning, I decided, after considering what the Holy Spirit might want me to study as I had finished with 1 Timothy. Usually, I would just keep going on to 2 Timothy but this time was different. As I started studying Chapter 1 of Hebrews, the first 3 verses jumped right at me.

I don't think I'd ever contemplated just how much Jesus was involved in the Old Testament. I remember a man asking a theology professor, where do we see Jesus in the Old Covenant. He said "every where". After contemplating the first 3 verses of chapter 1, I decided to check out what Dr. Kenneth Wuest, one of my favorite Greek expositors, had to say about some other verses like v.10....

Hebrews 1:10
In the support of his argument to the effect that the Son is better than the angels, the writer quotes Psalm_102:25-27. The unchangeable and eternal power and majesty of the Son, spoken of in verses 11, 12, find their basis in the fact that He is the One who laid the foundation of the earth and fashioned the heavens.
Translation: As for thee, in the beginning, O Lord, thou didst lay the foundation of the earth. And the works of thy hands are the heavens.

The more I read/study the Old Covenant, the more I see the activity of Jesus.

 

[JLB]

As a Team, JLB, Nathan, and me (Chopper) are presenting this study thread on just how much involvement did Christ Jesus have in the Old Testament. Our aim is to exalt the Name and Person of our Lord (Master Owner) Jesus, the Son of the living God.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I (Chopper) have found that a lot of Christians have never learned just how much Jesus was involved in the Old Testament (Old Covenant). Then there are those like JLB, Nathan, and me who do know about these things and find it a rich spiritual blessing to study our Creative Son of God.

Please join us as we journey into the past to spiritually walk with our Master as He accomplishes so very much during time passed. The two passages of Scripture are our foundation of this study. What do you folk know about what these Scriptures teach?

Thanks to Chopper for starting this thread.

I believe this study is so important to us as sons of God, that we both understand and teach will all clarity the simple yet profound truth, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I will tee off, where we left off in the other thread, to continue with what the writer of the book of Hebrews teaches us about who Jesus is, from the old testament.


5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son,Today I have begotten You”?
And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:5-10


You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands, is a reference to the Lord God of the old testament.

The writer of the book of Hebrews is making a distinction, between God's only begotten Son, and sons of God, as angels were sometimes referred to in the old testament.

Furthermore, this letter was written to those who knew what the old testament said, unlike the Gentiles, who were unlearned in the scriptures.


“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands, is a quote from Zechariah.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: ...
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:1,10


Jesus is clearly the One speaking through Zechariah, proclaiming that He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and is the One who was pierced, and will be seen by His countrymen when He returns... and they will mourn.


as Peter says...

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1;10-11

The Spirit of Christ was in Zechariah, and the old testament prophets, speaking forth.

Whenever we see the phrase thus says the Lord, in the old testament, that was the Spirit of Christ speaking.


But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
Isaiah 43:1-3

When we confess Jesus as Lord, we must understand that Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God.


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

As I read the scriptures, Jesus always has sustained the universe by His hand. It is imperative to remember He and the Holy Spirit are in the Father and the Father and Jesus are in the Holy Spirit and the Father and the Spirit are in Jesus. I cannot explain it but no one neegs to, all we need do is to accept it. (John 1:1, John 14:11, John 1:18, John 17:3, John 20:31, Matt 24:36, Act 7:55

 

[Chopper]

If I'm understanding you correctly JLB, you're saying that whenever we see the title LORD or Lord, it really is saying "Jesus". Is that correct?

 

[Nathan]

Here is another instance of Jesus in the OT. I am sure most have already heard this one, but its such a clear and vivid picture, that its so worth repeating.

Genesis 18:1-19
And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah.So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Seriously, I think this tops most all accounts of Jesus in the OT. At least in regards to how awesome it would be if I were Abraham. He was sitting in the shade and all of a sudden see's the Son of God there at his tent.

You better believe that I would be quick to get a meal ready. How awesome to sit down and have a meal with the One who created everything?

There is so much depth in this passage it would take pages of posts to share it all. The take away is this - Jesus came to the father of ALL who have faith in Christ, to eat with him, and to tell him about the things that were about to take place.

 

[reba]

Isaac on the altar as well as the ram
joseph in the well as well as in Egypt
Who was in the furnace with the 3 guys

 

[Nathan]

You ever wonder if this was what Jesus was doing with those guys on the road to Emmaus?

 

[reba]

what 'this"

 

[th1b.taylor]

Isaac on the altar as well as the ram
joseph in the well as well as in Egypt
Who was in the furnace with the 3 guys

I love that story in Daniel. The king's guards tossed three men into the fire but then four were observed walking around in the furnace.

 

[Chopper]

Here is another instance of Jesus in the OT. I am sure most have already heard this one, but its such a clear and vivid picture, that its so worth repeating.

Genesis 18:1-19
And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah.So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Seriously, I think this tops most all accounts of Jesus in the OT. At least in regards to how awesome it would be if I were Abraham. He was sitting in the shade and all of a sudden see's the Son of God there at his tent.

You better believe that I would be quick to get a meal ready. How awesome to sit down and have a meal with the One who created everything?

There is so much depth in this passage it would take pages of posts to share it all. The take away is this - Jesus came to the father of ALL who have faith in Christ, to eat with him, and to tell him about the things that were about to take place.

I agree, that was an awesome story of the actual Son of God Jesus. When I consider all that Jesus created, and how He sustains all of the universe, I'm simply taken back by what He did in order for our planet to stay in the orbit that Jesus created, and the fact that sun, moon, and stars are still where He put them. It amazes me that they are not suspended by anything. No cables or ropes to keep them where they belong, according to the Word of Jesus' Power.

I think it's going to be fun, discovering just where we will find the labors of the Son of God.

 

[reba]

This verse is intriguing
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:


This verse has a lot to do with my understanding that there is no... us and them... there is not Jew and Gentile ... there has always been one body .. one holy nation .. etc...

I will not respond to my thoughts and pull this thread off topic..

 

[WIP]

Here is another instance of Jesus in the OT. I am sure most have already heard this one, but its such a clear and vivid picture, that its so worth repeating.

Genesis 18:1-19
And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah.So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” The LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.” But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Seriously, I think this tops most all accounts of Jesus in the OT. At least in regards to how awesome it would be if I were Abraham. He was sitting in the shade and all of a sudden see's the Son of God there at his tent.

You better believe that I would be quick to get a meal ready. How awesome to sit down and have a meal with the One who created everything?

There is so much depth in this passage it would take pages of posts to share it all. The take away is this - Jesus came to the father of ALL who have faith in Christ, to eat with him, and to tell him about the things that were about to take place.

What truly stands out when I read these accounts of Jesus in the OT is how the people recognized who He was. They didn't see Him as some unknown stranger but as Lord.

 

[th1b.taylor]

What truly stands out when I read these accounts of Jesus in the OT is how the people recognized who He was. They didn't see Him as some unknown stranger but as Lord.

I do not believe in the evolutionary creation, that is trash science but Languages and customs change dramatically. When I was growing up an Atheist, Christians revered their God and they were vocal about it to anyone.

During my walk with Jesus, I have found that finding 2 Spirit filled member in any assembly, including the Pentecostal Churches. With people God has been moved from Creator/Sustainer to a useful lackey. The movement today is away from the Angry God of the Bible Jesus wrote toward the God of Pure Love with no wrath involved and is small enough to be carried, safely tucked away in our clothing, out of the way.

Prayerful reading and study of the Old Testament, as we are instructed when instructed by, "all scripture is profitable," will render it impossible to not see Jesus through out the Old Testament,

 

[Chopper]

What truly stands out when I read these accounts of Jesus in the OT is how the people recognized who He was. They didn't see Him as some unknown stranger but as Lord.

I'm very glad that you entered your post. I hadn't thought of what you said but my mind goes back to Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom. You are right!! Abraham didn't know that one of the strangers was non other than His Messiah, but he knew He was special, very special.

Wow WIP, your post has my mind spinning with all kinds of occasions where this happened. Thank you for a very rich addition to this thread that speaks volumes. Hmm, WOW!!

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

The whole idea of the Old Testament was to point to the coming savior. The language or the Old Testament, the feasts, everything pointed to Jesus. I have some great teachings on it. My life is kind of upside down since my husband died. I will have to find them and share them. They are amazing.

 

[JLB]

If I'm understanding you correctly JLB, you're saying that whenever we see the title LORD or Lord, it really is saying "Jesus". Is that correct?

The context would need to be evaluated in each verse you are referring to.

The translators wrote either LORD or Lord based on their interpretation from the context.

I would like to continue with the Hebrews scripture, and elaborate on the authors comparison of Jesus to Angels, since that is the one of the foundational scriptures you chose.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:5-10


We see that the writer of the book of Hebrews seemed to be "weighing in" on a controversy about Jesus as the Son of God, and angels who are referred to as "sons of God".

• as He says... For to which of the angels did He ever say:...

Let's examine the scriptures in the old testament concerning the Angel of the Lord.

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

• Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

and again

• 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:21-22

and again

• 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13

Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

• In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8

JLB