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What Is Baptism?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
th1b.taylor
Member
I speak from the recorded Word of God, the Bible, and cannot find, in the
Word 0f God, an alarming amount of the information you post here (teaching some what is not found).
Wrg1405
Member
Are you open to any type of correction at all?
Hi twinc
Could you please tell me this...
We're discussing baptism here...
So what would you say is the garbage we have been fed?
What is apex christianity?
What is the password?
Could you speak clearly please. Anyone who believes that Jesus is Savior and Lord is a christian, no matter if they're in a church or not. Or what church. Im sure everyone here agrees.
Ok, fair enough.
The clear picture of two different meanings is seen in John
Jhn 1:33
I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
The two different uses is found in Acts
Act 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Act 19:1-7
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland
And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.”
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
There were about twelve men in all.
Paul clearly asked, "Into what then were you baptized?". Now, if they were speaking about water, wouldn't it make sense that the people answering would have said "water"?Seeing how they understood what Paul was asking, about what teaching they were 'immersed' in, they told him the teaching of John's - which was that of repentance.
But we know that repentance is just the first step in becoming a Christ follower, so Paul then "baptized" them - again by teaching - into the the name of the Lord Jesus, which is that of faith in the Savior. This is the most clear example of the two different meanings when you leave the verses in their context. Pulled out and you can make all kinds of different meanings.
John baptized with water as an external show of repentance. He was sent to prepare the way.
Just as roads were prepared for kings that were to travel them, so the way was prepared for Jesus.
People prepared their hearts for His message of the Kingdom. Maybe they needed this preparation because they had been ignored for hundreds of years, in between the old and the new testament. No important prophets. The rabbis helped the people, but there was no central voice. So John the Batptist was that central voice and gathered all.
He said the one to come, Jesus, would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Why would we need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit if we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation?
In Acts 1:4-5 Jesus tells the disciples to wait in Jerusalem because they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit, of which He had spoken, He said they would receive the POWER to be His witnesses.
There is a difference between John's baptism, which is an external sign of an internal repentance, and Jesus' baptism, which gives us power and the strength to witness, perhaps both orally and with our actions. (our life).
As to Acts 19:1-7 and being baptized in the name of Jesus.
What is the difference between Mathew 28:19, when Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and Acts, also Acts 2:38, when peter tells new disciples that they are to be baptized in the name of Jesus?
As to your theory on baptism being of teaching, how can this be if people being baptized were already on their way to being Christians?
In Acts 19:1-7 which you site, it was disciples to whom Paul was speaking when he asked them what type of baptism they had. Not only that, but when they answered "of water" he told them to be baptized again in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:5.
It doesn't seem to me that baptism has to do with teaching, but with the receiving of a force which is supernatural and which we are commanded to do.
Are you saying we could lose our baptism?
Please speak clearly...
Nathan
Member
The reason why there is a marked difference between being baptized 'in' one name of another, is there are different faucets of understanding - and as you allude to - power that comes from that understanding. It is not a 'force' that is given to us, but a power that is available to us.
Think of it this way; in Luke 9 Jesus gave His disciples authority to cast out demons and heal and such. He gave them the power. However, a day or so later, we read this;
Luk 9:37-40
On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. And behold, a man from the crowd cried out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out. It convulses him so that he foams at the mouth, and shatters him, and will hardly leave him. And I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.”
Why couldn't they? We read why in Matthew 17;
Mat 17:19-20
Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.
Now, by what avenue does faith come? Through hearing the word of God. It comes through teaching.
You said
Except, they did not say "of water", they very specifically said "Into John's Baptism". This is a direct way of saying they were immersed into the teaching of John the baptist, which is that of repentance. They did not understand that repentance is just the beginning of faith, and you must turn from sin to Christ. So that's why Paul said “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” And then proceeded to 'baptize' them in the name of the Lord Jesus.
That is to say, Paul immersed them into the teaching of who the Lord Jesus is, which is the teaching of forgiveness of sins and way of righteousness. None of this had to do with water - unless you understand that the word of God is like water to us.
Did they physically get into water after this? Who knows. Maybe, maybe not. It says when he laid his hands on them the Holy Spirit came on them. Think about this, just a little glimpse into what was going on at that time, it says they were "baptized", yet it was not till after this that it says Paul laid his hands on them. If it was speaking about physically dunking them in water, wouldn't it make sense that Paul would have put his hands on them to dunk them in the water?
OK. So the "dunk" is water baptism.
Does water baptism exist today?
The other is the cucumber remaining in the jar of faith.
§This would be baptism by "fire and the Holy Spirit".
The Old dies, the New Comes.
And we have to stay in the faith to become the New self.
We have the new spark of life, and death has been removed from our soul. Our spirit is alive thanks to Christ.
So, if we are to stay in the jar of faith:
1. Present your bodies a living sacrifice, Romans 12:1
2. Renew our mind and thus transform ourselves, Romans 12:2
So is the faith baptism required for this transformation?
Nathan
Member
I believe 100% in water baptism existing today. We are still humans, and as humans we need representations. Water baptism is the representation of the faith that exists in us. The faith of who God the Father is, who God the Son is, and who the Holy Spirit is. It is our way of telling ourselves, and those around us, that we have this faith in our lives now and we are giving ourselves over to it - just like a cucumber gives itself over to becoming a pickle.
If by "faith baptism" you mean the teaching of God, then yes - it is impossible to become like something you have no idea about. If you mean water baptism, then no, it is not required for the transformation - but rather it is a fruit of the transformation. I think that any person who has faith will want to be baptized in water.
Don't mistake that the transformation power comes from yourself though. Just like a cucumber does not have anything in itself to become the pickle, neither do we. The 'power' of the vinegar and the way the jar of cucumbers are handled is what transforms the cucumbers into pickles. The pickles simply soak it all in.
Nathan,
I checked a few bibles and yes, thanks, in Acts 19:6, Paul lays his hands on the disciples, there is no water involved.
So, as you say:
1. John's baptism of water - for repentance and getting ready for the next step.
2. Jesus' baptism - for the forgiveness of sin and for power.
I like what you say here:
there are different faucets of understanding - and as you allude to - power that comes from that understanding. It is not a 'force' that is given to us, but a power that is available to us.
(the highlight and underline in your post is mine)
The force is available to us, but is not forced upon us. One of my main understandings about God. He does not force anything upon us that we do not want.
When I left the Catholic church to go to a Protestant church, I remember thinking, after a while, that I was never taught about the POWER of my beliefs - they were almost dead. I find it very important to learn about the power we have in our faith in Jesus.
Were you baptized and did it make a difference?
Wrg1405
Member
To me water baptism does not save.
To me water baptism does cause a change of behaviour.
We are saved when we place our faith in Jesus
Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Jesus said
John 16:7-9
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Sin here is unbelief in him.
When we turn from that sin and believe in him as per Romans 10 quoted above we are saved.
Jesus said
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Notice 'make disciples then baptise'
To disciple is to teach preach Jesus, when they come to faith baptise them then further disciple them to be like Jesus, walk like Jesus, be the people he has asked us to be.
To me baptism is a spiritual marker in a believers life, a springboard forward, identifying with Christ.
To me water baptism does cause a change of behaviour.
We are saved when we place our faith in Jesus
Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Jesus said
John 16:7-9
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Sin here is unbelief in him.
When we turn from that sin and believe in him as per Romans 10 quoted above we are saved.
Jesus said
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Notice 'make disciples then baptise'
To disciple is to teach preach Jesus, when they come to faith baptise them then further disciple them to be like Jesus, walk like Jesus, be the people he has asked us to be.
To me baptism is a spiritual marker in a believers life, a springboard forward, identifying with Christ.
Nathan
Member
Yes! The power is from Christ and Him alone. This is why you see that the disciples were often times 'empowered' or had the Spirit 'fill' them - even after the time at Pentecost. Even before that, before Pentecost, they received the Spirit - just as we receive the Spirit the moment we receive faith. I remember that moment in time, in my life, very well.
Jhn 20:19-22
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you". When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."
This is the moment the disciples received the Spirit of God. How Cool!
What started all of this study of baptism years ago was a good intentioned guy, I believe, told me that if I wanted to receive the Holy Spirit then I need to be 'baptized'(in water) and done in the 'name' of Jesus. He said because I was baptized by a "baptist" denomination, they say "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", that I was not actually baptized in the "name of Jesus".
It really threw me for a loop. He had a real good defense for his position. It made sense - until I started studying. I had been a believer for a while, but as it so often happens you always find those who outwardly 'seem' to have 'signs' of the Spirit in their life. Often a believer can 'feel' like a normal human being. Honestly, I do not throw this around haphazardly, I studied but could not draw a clear answer that night. It was not till I earnestly sought the truth - I mean I was in total anguish over it that night - then I received the truth.
God did show me through the Bible what baptism was. It was not some 'meditation' discussion with a spirit being or something. It was just a sudden clarity when I read. That's why I cannot deny what I know. It did not come from me trying to make something fit what I believed - because I honestly did not know what I should believe. It was much, very much, like when I received faith in Christ. A total loss of who I was and what I believed, and a total depending on His Word of faith.
THE FOLLOWING IS WRITTEN BY Wrg1405 AND I POST IT WITH HIS PERMISSION:
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Baptism is for the believer, for someone who has consciously placed their faith in `Jesus, along the lines off
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Yesterday I baptised 3 people and I asked them those 2 questions.
We receive the Holy Spirit when we place our faith in Jesus
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
I actually refused to baptise someone once. I wasn't sure if they were genuine believers.
So I asked them if they had done what Roman's 9:10 says.
They said no, so I asked them if they would like to, they said no and would do it on their own.
So I said when you do and you can honestly tell me you have then I will baptise you.
A week later they came back and said "I don't believe in God, I just wanted to be part of something that is considered special'
The funny thing he came to our group after fleeing the Mormon Church when they tried to pressurise him to be baptised, then after a year in my group asked me to baptise him.
To me when babies are baptised they are not saved and they are not sealed with the Holy Spirit.
However if they die before having a full knowledge of Christ then they are in heaven anyway. So to me those who were baptised as unbelievers do not need to be un-baptised.
You can't be released from something you never entered to in the first place.
We do not need to be baptised to be saved, baptism is identifying ourselves with Christ and what he has done.
Jesus said go into the nations and make disciples then baptise, it's not the other way around.
If a genuine believer has been baptised yet we see no change they have not been discipled, in that case they need to be discipled.
We expect to see change, whatever we consider is appropriate change required. If we don't see it we can be quick to judge their faith.
We need to come alongside such people, disciple them. Part of that process may reveal barriers/hangups in their life that reflects in their walk but needs dealing with.
Wrg1405
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Baptism is for the believer, for someone who has consciously placed their faith in `Jesus, along the lines off
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Yesterday I baptised 3 people and I asked them those 2 questions.
We receive the Holy Spirit when we place our faith in Jesus
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
I actually refused to baptise someone once. I wasn't sure if they were genuine believers.
So I asked them if they had done what Roman's 9:10 says.
They said no, so I asked them if they would like to, they said no and would do it on their own.
So I said when you do and you can honestly tell me you have then I will baptise you.
A week later they came back and said "I don't believe in God, I just wanted to be part of something that is considered special'
The funny thing he came to our group after fleeing the Mormon Church when they tried to pressurise him to be baptised, then after a year in my group asked me to baptise him.
To me when babies are baptised they are not saved and they are not sealed with the Holy Spirit.
However if they die before having a full knowledge of Christ then they are in heaven anyway. So to me those who were baptised as unbelievers do not need to be un-baptised.
You can't be released from something you never entered to in the first place.
We do not need to be baptised to be saved, baptism is identifying ourselves with Christ and what he has done.
Jesus said go into the nations and make disciples then baptise, it's not the other way around.
If a genuine believer has been baptised yet we see no change they have not been discipled, in that case they need to be discipled.
We expect to see change, whatever we consider is appropriate change required. If we don't see it we can be quick to judge their faith.
We need to come alongside such people, disciple them. Part of that process may reveal barriers/hangups in their life that reflects in their walk but needs dealing with.
Wrg1405
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"It is impossible to become like something you know nothing about"I believe 100% in water baptism existing today. We are still humans, and as humans we need representations. Water baptism is the representation of the faith that exists in us. The faith of who God the Father is, who God the Son is, and who the Holy Spirit is. It is our way of telling ourselves, and those around us, that we have this faith in our lives now and we are giving ourselves over to it - just like a cucumber gives itself over to becoming a pickle.
If by "faith baptism" you mean the teaching of God, then yes - it is impossible to become like something you have no idea about. If you mean water baptism, then no, it is not required for the transformation - but rather it is a fruit of the transformation. I think that any person who has faith will want to be baptized in water.
Don't mistake that the transformation power comes from yourself though. Just like a cucumber does not have anything in itself to become the pickle, neither do we. The 'power' of the vinegar and the way the jar of cucumbers are handled is what transforms the cucumbers into pickles. The pickles simply soak it all in.
Very good! Very true.
And as to the transforming power: I view this as sancitification.
A cooperative action between us and God.
He supplies the Holy Spirit
We soak in it...
P.S. The soaking does bring about our good deeds, or works, which are not to be frowned upon. Everything we do for God is a good "work". Our life should be a work for him...
Thanks Wrigley,
I had forgotten about John 16:7:9
Jesus was limited to being where He was physically.
When He went away, the Holy Spirit came and the Holy Spirit can be all over to do the work He does...
convict of sin, be our helper, (also to understand the Word of God) keep us close to God Father, be our comforter, and our power to witness as in Acts 1:8
th1b.taylor
Member
Good post and I'll not argue with a single word of it gut when the Holy Spirt overcame me, I was not baptized, but sorely needed to make a public profession of my faith in Jesus and when I went under the water in that baptismal I was showing the world that the Oid Man was being buried znd the new man was taking his place. That's what means to me.
Wrg1405
Member
Amen my brother
Jim Parker
Member
TO ALL IN THIS THREAD
Here's what Paul said we were doing when we got baptized: Rom 6:3-4 (RSV)
Do you not know that
all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death,
so that
as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life.
I don't know why so many churches don't teach what the Bible teaches about Baptism.
Baptism is NOT a "public confession of faith in Jesus Christ."
The way to show the world that the "Old man" had died and the "new man" had risen is to ACT LIKE we are the "New, risen, man" who has "put on Christ."
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We are baptized for a specific purpose which the Bible spells out in so many words.
Rom 6:5-7
For if
we have been united with him in a death like his,
we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
We know that
our old self was crucified with him
so that the sinful body might be destroyed,
and
we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
For he who has died is freed from sin.
And, according to the Bible, THAT why we are Baptized.
iakov the fool
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