How about explaining how Eph 1:13-14 and John 10:28 doesn't teach eternal security? Because that's what they clearly do teach imo. If I'm wrong, please help me out. Show me what they do teach.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
He was never saved.
So God violates the free will of people who have been prayed over??
Heb 6:6 - if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
This isn't a reference to Jesus' literal crucifixion. It's a reference to those believers who fall away. How did they fall away. By returning to animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution by the Jews. The writer equates a return to animal sacrifice to crucifying Christ all over again, which subjected Him to public disgrace.
Nathan
Member
So, you believe that the following passage equates to Hebrews 6 when they specifically oppose each other? Interesting.
1 Cor 2:1-13
1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
So in one passage it says that they would not have crucified Him if they understood "this", which comes from the Spirit. And you say that the passage in Hebrews is speaking of these, yet the passage in Hebrews said they shared in the Holy Spirit.
These two passages would be opposed to each other. Hebrews 6 absolutely cannot, in no way, be talking about the same people in 1 Corinthians 2. It is impossible.
Or are you like FreeGrace and believe that a person who has the seal of God can do anything they want, even denying Christ, and still be sealed?
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
You have refused to address the plain and clear language of these verse's, specifically the phrase, "drinks in the rain", in favor of trying to convince everyone that that refers to unbelieving Pharisee's, even in the face of the language that says:
- who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
- if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,
...if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:6
- Those whom crucify "for themselves" again, are those who had repented at one time, then fell away.
Read it for yourself... ...if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God.
Can you show me some scriptures that teaches us Pharisee's who repented, and tasted the good word of God, and became partakers of the Holy Spirit, then went out and crucified Jesus Christ?
JLB
That is exactly what these two are spreading through this forum, everyday.
Thank you, Nathan for standing up for the truth!
JLB
Douglas Summers
Member
It is a simple Truth to the born again. God calls....we don't join.(john 6:44) God saves...we don't work to maintain.(Titus 3:5-7) God removes our sins completely...he does not cover our sins (Psalms 103:12) God saves us to the uttermost. (Heb. 7:7:24-25)
Most of the warnings in the Scriptures are to the self righteous and deceived and should not be lumped together with born again believers. (2 Pet. 2:1-22)
And we are eternally secure because (Heb. 6:17-20) Any man that thinks he can lose his salvation, climbed in the wrong way! (Heb. 10:1-42)
Christ in us,
Douglas Summers
Nathan
Member
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:19-22
...after they have escaped the pollutions [defilement] of the world.
Hows does one escape the pollutions of the world?
JLB
Douglas Summers
Member
You left off the rest of the Scripture that explains their standing. ,"Through the knowledge of the Lord and savior Jesus The Christ,". That is how they escape....through the knowledge!, but they were false prophets and teachers of works and their own understanding of the Gospel, which is not the Gospel. I'am a witness to eternal security, for I have seen God!.....He looks like Jesus in every respect.
Nathan
Member
Please expound. Is this just a play on words?
chessman
Member
There is no opposition between the two passages. Nor did I say there was. Nor do I believe there is.
When it says "they", it means they.
When it says "we" it means "we".
Your conflation of the two is obvious.
Nathan
Member
I did not know that the word "they" and "we" meant anyone through out the Bible - as in across the Board. So we are the same we in all the Bible? And they are the same they in all the Bible? Interesting train of thought.
In 1 Corinthians it says "they" did not understand because they are revealed through the Spirit. Yet in Hebrews it says that "they" are partakers of the Spirit. So obviously the "they" cannot be the same people.
Are you just wanting to argue or do you honestly not see this?
Yes, people escape from the defiling pollutions of the world by repenting, because they heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and "acknowledge" Jesus as Lord, in which they "know" and are thoroughly acquainted the way of righteousness, but become entangled again and overcome, because they return to their own filth.
This verse is teaching us by the full context of 2 Peter 2, that the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS is propagated by false teachers, who teach this nonsense to the unlearned and gullible, and cause them to stumble thrown their teaching about the freedom and liberty we have to live anyway we desire with no consequences.
Read it for yourself:
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 2 Peter 2:19
Those Christians who become free from the pollutions of the world, then return to the filth they were cleansed from by the precious blood of Jesus, and are overcome because they are entangled again, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
The holy Commandment of the Gospel is repent, which is a command to turn to God, and by default if we need to turn to God, then we need to turn away from the devil.
Those who "turn from" the holy commandment, once they have escaped from the pollutions of the world, are those who turn back to serving the devil and his sinful kingdom, which is why the Apostle uses the proverb; “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
JLB
chessman
Member
So you just change "we" into "they" and vesa-versa in any particular passage you like? That makes no sense.
If you've been following carefully that's been my point all along. Partakers of the Spirit is NOT the same meaning as "receivers of the Holy Spirit". The only way to "receive the Holy Spirit" is to accept the Holy Spirit. For that's what the word means.
Yet anyone who has read the prophets (like Isaiah) has "partaken of the Holy Spirit".
Nathan
Member
So you think it's possible to crucify Christ again?
Nathan said: ↑
Or are you like FreeGrace and believe that a person who has the seal of God can do anything they want, even denying Christ, and still be sealed?
iow, those "having believed" (Eph 1:13) are "sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit" (Eph 1:13) which is a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:14).
Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28. iow, once the gift is received, the recipient WILL NEVER PERISH. And it is impossible for God to lie. This is eternal security at its most clear statement.
Futher, believers have been born again of imperishable seed, from 1 Pet 1:23. So, how can one born of imperishable seed perish? That is impossible. No one has shown otherwise.
And, if anyone did show otherwise, then the Bible is internally contradicted and not worthy of reading or believing.
Or are you like FreeGrace and believe that a person who has the seal of God can do anything they want, even denying Christ, and still be sealed?
I've just pointed out the promises that the Bible makes. And the fact that "it is impossible for God to lie", from Heb 6:18.
iow, those "having believed" (Eph 1:13) are "sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit" (Eph 1:13) which is a guarantee for the day of redemption (Eph 1:14).
Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28. iow, once the gift is received, the recipient WILL NEVER PERISH. And it is impossible for God to lie. This is eternal security at its most clear statement.
Futher, believers have been born again of imperishable seed, from 1 Pet 1:23. So, how can one born of imperishable seed perish? That is impossible. No one has shown otherwise.
And, if anyone did show otherwise, then the Bible is internally contradicted and not worthy of reading or believing.