What Is Baptism?

[Nathan]

Baptism in regards to dying is a good analogy. If you go and look through old Greek literature you realize that the word "baptize" is a direct translation to English. In other words, its not like the word "love" or "word" or many other words.

Reason being is that it carries a very distinct definition. We have to know that Jesus did not use the word itself - it was a word used by the one writing down the words of Jesus. So, we know that Jesus was being very specific in what He was telling His disciples to do. And the person who was writing down understood what Jesus was saying - and used this word to describe it.

What we have to do is come to a conclusion. Was there any indication that Jesus was speaking about doing something for 'identification'? Or, was His command to the disciples something that we can see as being serious and real?

He told them to make disciples. Is this just figuratively or serious?

He told them to teach. Is this just figuratively or serious?

So when He tells them to baptize, we would have to say it falls in line with the other two points right?

Does being baptized in water do something serious? No. I could go take an atheist off the street, pay him some cash, and baptize him in water. I could do it saying one thing, or another, or even nothing at all - and the result would be the same. We see this all the time in churches. I have been water baptized at least 3 times - maybe 4(memory is a little fuzzy). The act of me doing it was obedience for sure, but it did not 'do' anything to me. In other words, it did not change me. Discipleship changes a person, teaching changes a person, so we have to say that the "baptism" Jesus speaks about would be about changing a person.

Why do we think Jesus was inserting a ritual act in the middle of some serious points? Unless we think He was speaking about discipleship as ritual, or teaching as ritual........ He wasn't, He was speaking of a baptizing of disciples they make, that would transform the disciple - which in turn would setup the person to be able to understand the teaching they would then receive.

Notice how Jesus told them to baptize? He did not say "tell the disciples you make to be baptized", He told His disciples that they were to baptize. Yet now, we view it as the other way around - furthermore, we made it such a ritual act that only a 'select' few are 'capable' of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

interesting stuff in your posts. I didn't know that about the dye connection. What a great analogy of the changed life.

And how we all become the same.
(color)

 

[Nathan]

One thing to also consider. When a person 'becomes' a disciple it means they have turned from worshiping the world. Think about it.

They were worshiping their idea of God. They were believing in their works to save them. They were following their own desires.

So when they repent(turn from) those things, they need to have something to turn to. This is the point of the baptism Jesus is talking about.

They now worship the true God. They now trust in Jesus sacrifice. They now follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

This doesn't all just come 'magically'. It's something we should teach disciples we make. It's something that is left out and has been replaced with rituals. Reminds me of some things Jesus said in Luke 11.

We wonder why people 'leave' the faith. We try to play it off as their fault when it's really ours.

 

[Papa Zoom]

And how we all become the same.
(color)

Yes. That too!

 

[reba]

And how we all become the same.
(color)

tie dye

 

[JohnDB]

tie dye

 

[Nathan]

And how we all become the same.
(color)

I think this is why Christ was baptized.

 

[Jim Parker]

The reason Nathan has me thinking about this is because of what the RCC does. It baptizes babies.

Ok
But that is a different discussion.

So Nathan would be right in this case. The words make no difference since the baby is not even saying them.

The person being baptized, whether infant or ancient so not say the words. The baptizER says the words.

I'm not sure what Nathan is saying so I don't know if he's right or wrong.

That church teaches that, at some point, the adult person must ACCEPT their baptism.

I have never heard that.
What does it mean to accept one's baptism?

Proving that unless one has knowledge of what he is doing, the baptism is of no effect.

Yeah. That's the infant baptism discussion again.
It has been a practice from very early in the Church and there is some indication from scripture that infants may have been baptized as when an entire household would be baptized. That would include children and possible children.
But there is no explicit instruction either way in scripture.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

I think this is why Christ was baptized.

Hi Nathan,
Actually scripture tells us why Christ was baptized.
Mathew 3:15
To fullfil all righteousness. To fullfil everything that is right with God.

If it was right for everyone else repenting and getting ready for the coming Kingdom, then it was right that Jesus should be baptized too because it was the beginning of His ministry and because He wanted to identify with us, so that He could experience everything we do.

Also, since batpism signifies our death, burial and resurrection, so it did for Jesus who would eventually literally die, be buried and be resurrected. So it's a type of what was to come for Him, as it is for us also.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok
But that is a different discussion.

Baptizing babies is a different discussion but it helps me to understand that baptism in and of itself has no value.
The RCC believes it does...it takes away original sin. And since God cannot be in the presence of sin, and the baby died, what would happen to him since he would still have Original Sin? This is why that church baptizes babies. Now, it says that it is not absolutely necessary, but it also says that we put the unbaptized and dead baby in the merciful hands of God --- which means they are not stating for sure what happens to the baby. They don NOT believe in limbo, as many incorrectly believe, but, of course, it can also not be ruled out since they're not sure what happens.

The person being baptized, whether infant or ancient so not say the words. The baptizER says the words.

I had to reread my post. Of course babies don't talk! I meant that the baby cannot believe what is being said.
Sorry 'bout that. So what's the use of baptizing a baby? For the above reason.

I'm not sure what Nathan is saying so I don't know if he's right or wrong.

Nathan is saying that there are other types of baptism besides with water. For instance in Acts when a person has already been baptized and then Peter or Paul "baptize" them again to receive the Holy Spirit by laying hands on them. Acts 1:8 ----> Acts 2:3-4
Acts 8:16-17
Acts 10:44

Nathan thinks that maybe in Mathew 28:19 when Jesus tells the Apostles to baptize, He means with the knowledge of the gospel.

He'll correct me if I'm wrong...

I have never heard that.
What does it mean to accept one's baptism?

I've had to explain this to adults who don't understand about being born from above because the RCC never uses these words, although it does believe it if you go to their bible studies you do hear it. They seem to like
Galatians 2:16.

In a simple way, when a baby is baptized, they teach that he becomes a child of God and is accepted into the community. Great. But what if he grows up to be a lost person, as we understand it? Will he still go to heaven ONLY BECAUSE he has been baptized? Of course not. So the doctrine had to be corrected. (this is why it's never good to stray from the written word).

A person MUST, at some point in their life, ACCEPT the baptism. They must, as an adult, understand what it means and accept the implications and live a life accordingly.

Yeah. That's the infant baptism discussion again.
It has been a practice from very early in the Church and there is some indication from scripture that infants may have been baptized as when an entire household would be baptized. That would include children and possible children.
But there is no explicit instruction either way in scripture.

In fact, the baptism of entire households in Acts is used by them to justify the baptizing of infants.
It has been a practiced from very early Christianity because the ECF believed what I wrote up above.

What I'm trying to understand is this: Does baptism magically take away O.S. or any other sin since it's supposed to remove all sin up till that point, or is it just symbolic?

Anyway, I believe we are not even imputed with O.S. but only with its effects.
What do you think about that??

 

[GodsGrace]

One thing to also consider. When a person 'becomes' a disciple it means they have turned from worshiping the world. Think about it.

They were worshiping their idea of God. They were believing in their works to save them. They were following their own desires.

So when they repent(turn from) those things, they need to have something to turn to. This is the point of the baptism Jesus is talking about.

They now worship the true God. They now trust in Jesus sacrifice. They now follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

This doesn't all just come 'magically'. It's something we should teach disciples we make. It's something that is left out and has been replaced with rituals. Reminds me of some things Jesus said in Luke 11.

We wonder why people 'leave' the faith. We try to play it off as their fault when it's really ours.

I'm sorry Nathan, why Luke 11??

I do agree with your last sentence.
Ritual is needed too because of the fact that we're human beings and it helps us to be glued to whatever institution we're referring to.

However, when the ritual is not understood in today's very knowledge hungry world, many leave the institution because the ritual seems devoid of reason.

 

[GodsGrace]

No...
What I'm saying is that it's a form of poetry.
God is "Holy, Holy, Holy".
It's a poetic line in Hebrew poetry having a specific meaning of "beyond complete".

Jesus, like God, always taught lessons in poetry. So that the words would stick in your brain like a song.

Holy, Holy, Holy.

There is no way Hebrew to express:
GOOD, BETTER, BEST

So the idea is just repeated 3X.

This is what I learned. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[GodsGrace]

There are three Baptism's, not one.

Church tradition has made water Baptism to be performed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, instead of seeing three Baptism's, one for each of the Godhead.

If we get right down to it, water Baptism is done is response to the person's faith: the obedience of faith.

We have faith in Jesus Christ, and believe on His name.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 1:12

The scripture says they were Baptized into the Name of Jesus Christ.

• Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3

JLB

Hi JLB

Two things:

First, in Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on them, they were not necessarily baptized with water.
Acts 2:3-4
Acts 8:16
Acts 10:44

I understand that there are 3 baptisms --- it's in the O.P.
But if one of the baptisms is without water, that of CONVESION, then why do those in Acts that have ALREADY been converted, need to be baptized WITHOUT WATER into the Holy Spirit?

Second, I understand your position about Jesus being Yahweh. I've never understood why this is so important to you. Could you tell me that?

I understand the Godhead as being one but each Person being an individual.
Yahwah is the Father, not the Son.
Jesus is the Son.

As they stood there watching Him go up, THE SON,
So shall He return.

So it's Jesus, the Son, who will return, not Yahweh, the Father.

WHY do you believe this distinction is wrong?
WHY is this so important?

 

[JLB]

First, in Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on them, they were not necessarily baptized with water.
Acts 2:3-4
Acts 8:16
Acts 10:44

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:2-4

These were previously Baptized in water.

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Acts 1:21-22



These who were Baptized in the Holy Spirit, in Acts 8:18 were previously Baptized by Phillip.

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:12-13


Phillips practice was to preach the Gospel, and after the person believed, then he would baptize then by going fully down under the water.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:35-39



These first Gentiles to be Saved through the preaching of peter, were Baptized in water after they believed and were Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44




JLB

 

[JLB]

So it's Jesus, the Son, who will return, not Yahweh, the Father.

Jesus is the Son, YHWH the Lord God, who will return with the saints.

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord [YHWH] my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:4-5



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yahwah is the Father, not the Son.
Jesus is the Son.

The name of the Son is Jesus, which in Hebrew would be Joshua.

Both Names mean YHWH is salvation.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


This is a reference to YHWH, the Lord who laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord [YHWH], who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12;1,10


Confessing Jesus as Lord [YHWH], is how we are saved.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

• Some of the Jews would not obey the Gospel.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17


Jesus tells us He is YHWH.


57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,
Actually scripture tells us why Christ was baptized.
Mathew 3:15
To fullfil all righteousness. To fullfil everything that is right with God.

If it was right for everyone else repenting and getting ready for the coming Kingdom, then it was right that Jesus should be baptized too because it was the beginning of His ministry and because He wanted to identify with us, so that He could experience everything we do.

Also, since batpism signifies our death, burial and resurrection, so it did for Jesus who would eventually literally die, be buried and be resurrected. So it's a type of what was to come for Him, as it is for us also.

I do believe it was to fulfill all righteousness - but there has to be a reason behind that.

John was baptizing for repentance. Jesus had no sin - no need to repent. We find our identity in Him. I do not think baptism is about experience - and John was pretty clear it was not when he rebuked the Pharisee's who came to experience it.

 

[Nathan]

I'm sorry Nathan, why Luke 11??

I do agree with your last sentence.
Ritual is needed too because of the fact that we're human beings and it helps us to be glued to whatever institution we're referring to.

However, when the ritual is not understood in today's very knowledge hungry world, many leave the institution because the ritual seems devoid of reason.

I would really disagree on the ritual part. Ritual's automatically carry with them the significance of whatever it is your performing. That's why they eventually seem devoid of reason. It is the whole make an idol out of wood syndrome. A man has a desire to worship. Cuts down a tree, builds a fire with some of the wood, and carves an idol with the other part. Worships for a while, then when he starts getting cold, he throws the idol in the fire to warm himself up. Then repeats the process all over again.......

Sorry about Luke 11. I should have been more specific.

Luk 11:24-26
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.”

Why did the spirit return - and enter? The person had not secured the doors is why. Ponder on it for a while. Water baptism can be much like this.

 

[JLB]

But if one of the baptisms is without water, that of CONVESION, then why do those in Acts that have ALREADY been converted, need to be baptized WITHOUT WATER into the Holy Spirit?

I think I understand what your asking, but maybe not.

Let's look at a couple of scriptures, that are unique, in that they take place before Jesus was crucified, raised from the dead, and poured out His Spirit, so we can discuss our view, and understand each other more clearly.


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all. Acts 19:1-7

These disciples of John had already been baptized in water, but somehow had never believed in Jesus, even though John had taught them they were to believe on the One who would come after him.

These disciples of John needed to believe and be born again, in which the Holy Spirit would baptize them into Christ.

Then they would be ready to receive the Holy Spirit.

This was unique, in that John's disciples were baptized before Christ had risen and poured out His Spirit.

I see all three Baptism's here:

• Water Baptism: John's Baptism
• Baptized into Christ through believing Paul about Christ
• Baptized with the Holy Spirit: Received the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands by Paul.

What do you see?


Also, to me there seems to be a controversy in terms, which conflict with the Acts 10 account, which I hope we can discuss.




JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Jesus Christ was baptized in order to fulfill the law, not do away with it. He completed the law and therefore it was obsolete. Today the law, when used lawful, reveals God's righteous requirement and how man cannot keep the law, if you break one you have broken all.

In order for Aaron to put on the high attire he had to bathe(baptize), cleanse, his whole body, then he was worthy to put on the high priest attire. So, even though Christ was sinless, in order to become the high priest to atone for our sin and fulfill the all the law, it was necessary for him to be baptized.