"Believe" in the present tense

[FreeGrace]

Are Apostates Believers or Unbelievers?

Having believed as a simple occurrence, they ARE SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

So your obsession about whether an apostate believes or not is immaterial. Does.not.matter.

Once having believed, always sealed. OHBAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

What does Eph 1:13-14 say?
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Can you post the scripture that says once "in Him" it's impossible to be removed from Him?

What would that be necessary, since v.14 tells us that this sealing is "a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance". And this deposit that is guaranteed is "until the redemption of those who are God's possession".

Now, this sealing is a mark (v.13) to indicate those who are God's possession.

So, the real question is WHY would the Bible contradict itself by the notion that one can be unsealed?

But, if one wants to argue that one can be unsealed, they are arguing FOR contradiction in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace]

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-38


If a person is cast into the depth of hell, will they be separated from the love of God?
JLB

Yes, of course.

But, how can ANYTHING from the future separate us? The point is, nothing can.

The reason is clear from Scripture; eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

So, please show me where Paul specifically excluded the gift of eternal life from those gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Or, better yet, please show any verse that specifically says that eternal life is revokable.

 

[JLB]

Having believed as a simple occurrence, they ARE SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

So your obsession about whether an apostate believes or not is immaterial. Does.not.matter.

Once having believed, always sealed. OHBAS.

Please post the actual scripture that teaches us it's impossible for a person who is "in Christ", to be removed from Christ.

I posted the plain words that Jesus taught us:

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6


Believing is the condition for being saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Once a person believes, they now have the right, or power, or authority to become sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while then, longer believe, in which they fall away or depart from Him, no longer fulfill the necessary condition by which salvation is granted. These have returned to their former state of unbelieving, and have no sacrifice for their sins.


Please post the scripture that teaches us someone who does not believe any longer in Jesus, still has the benefit of being forgiven their sins.


How does a person receive the forgiveness of their sins, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, of course.

But, how can ANYTHING from the future separate us?

Separate us from the Love of God.

• shall be able to separate us from the love of God

That's what the scripture says, that you quoted.

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-38


If a person is cast into the depth of hell, will they be separated from the love of God?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Please post the actual scripture that teaches us it's impossible for a person who is "in Christ", to be removed from Christ.

I gave you the Scripture. I can't make you accept it.

I posted the plain words that Jesus taught us:

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

This is "plain words"? No. It's figurative language, which even His own disciples couldn't follow.

Believing is the condition for being saved.

Yeppers.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Please note this 'believe' is aorist tense, meaning a simple occurrence.

Once a person believes, they now have the right, or power, or authority to become sons of God.

Actually, more than that, are are new creatures (2 Cor 5:17). And "having believed" (simple occurrence) they ARE SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit GUARANTEEING the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Where are the plain words about losing salvation in Luke 8:13? I haven't seen any. Oh right, one must assume that "fall away" means "lose salvation". Even though it doesn't.

Those who believe for a while then, longer believe, in which they fall away or depart from Him, no longer fulfill the necessary condition by which salvation is granted. These have returned to their former state of unbelieving, and have no sacrifice for their sins.

So, iow, Christ's sacrifice can be nullified by one's behavior? Really? Where would one learn this from Scripture? Without having to make huge assumptions.

Christ's sacrifice is said to be "once for all". It was a one time sacrifice. It's not dynamic, as it seems your view is.

How does a person receive the forgiveness of their sins, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ?
JLB

They were forgiven when they put their faith in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person is cast into the depth of hell, will they be separated from the love of God?
JLB

Once again, yes. That, I believe, should be obvious.

But, since assumption is a big part of your theology, let's connect some dots by assumption.

In Matt, Jesus separates sheep from goats. So one must assume, from your claims, that sheep can become goats. So, where is that taught? Or must one have to assume that?

John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 say that we become the children of God through faith in Christ. So where does the Bible say that God's children can revert to the devil's children? Or that God's children can be un-children?

That's the problem with having to make assumptions. It becomes absurd. And cannot be defended from Scripture.

 

[JLB]

Once again, yes. That, I believe, should be obvious.

But, since assumption is a big part of your theology, let's connect some dots by assumption.

In Matt, Jesus separates sheep from goats. So one must assume, from your claims, that sheep can become goats. So, where is that taught? Or must one have to assume that?

John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 say that we become the children of God through faith in Christ. So where does the Bible say that God's children can revert to the devil's children? Or that God's children can be un-children?

That's the problem with having to make assumptions. It becomes absurd. And cannot be defended from Scripture.

You will need to post the actual scripture with it's context so we call all study the scripture you are using and discuss it's content.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Where are the plain words about losing salvation in Luke 8:13? I haven't seen any. Oh right, one must assume that "fall away" means "lose salvation". Even though it doesn't.

Just because you don't or won't see, doesn't change the truth of God's word, that the condition for salvation is "believe".

Believing is the condition for being saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while then, longer believe, in which they fall away or depart from Him, no longer fulfill the necessary condition by which salvation is granted. These have returned to their former state of unbelieving, and have no sacrifice for their sins.


Please post the scripture that teaches us someone who does not believe any longer in Jesus, still has the benefit of being forgiven their sins.


How does a person receive the forgiveness of their sins, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[JLB]

Once again, yes. That, I believe, should be obvious.

But, since assumption is a big part of your theology, let's connect some dots by assumption.

In Matt, Jesus separates sheep from goats. So one must assume, from your claims, that sheep can become goats. So, where is that taught? Or must one have to assume that?

John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 say that we become the children of God through faith in Christ. So where does the Bible say that God's children can revert to the devil's children? Or that God's children can be un-children?

That's the problem with having to make assumptions. It becomes absurd. And cannot be defended from Scripture.

How does a person receive the forgiveness of their sins, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

You will need to post the actual scripture with it's context so we call all study the scripture you are using and discuss it's content.
JLB

What's not "actual Scripture" about John 1:12 and Gal 3:26? If there is anything in either context that refutes anything I've posted, go ahead and post them yourself and then explain how they do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just because you don't or won't see, doesn't change the truth of God's word, that the condition for salvation is "believe".

And one is saved from a simple occurrence of believing, which is what the aorist tense indicates. Which you don't or won't see.

There is NO Scripture that says one can lose salvation. That is the Achille's heel in your theology.

 

[JLB]

And one is saved from a simple occurrence of believing, which is what the aorist tense indicates. Which you don't or won't see.

There is NO Scripture that says one can lose salvation. That is the Achille's heel in your theology.

No scripture for your "belief" .


How does a person receive the forgiveness of their sins, if they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[LovethroughDove]

And one is saved from a simple occurrence of believing, which is what the aorist tense indicates. Which you don't or won't see.

There is NO Scripture that says one can lose salvation. That is the Achille's heel in your theology.

But, there is a narrow path in which few find this kind of "belief".

 

[Nathan]

Yep. And grieving the Spirit all the while.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

Please notice that even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't undo the sealing with the Spirit. If that were possible, this would have been the perfect in which to make the statement. But Paul doesn't go there.

Interesting. You believe the Spirit of God lives in an apostate.

1Ti 4:1-3
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Under the idea that an apostate, one who has departed from the faith, can still have the Spirit of God in them - then the above passage in Timothy would mean a person with the Spirit of God can devote themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons?

However, we know this cannot be true. A person who has the Spirit of God cannot devote themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons. You will never find one passage that will indicate such. Its a lie. A complete lie. It is one of the oldest lies in fact.

Mat 12:30
Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

2Co 6:15
What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?

1Co 10:21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

It is impossible to be apart of Christ and to devote yourself to demonic activity.

Mat 6:24
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.





***I will post a word of warning for those who are tempted to believe such things. It is not a new warning, John gave this warning himself.

2Jo 1:5-11
And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Do not, in anyway, think that someone can take part in the teaching of demons, devote themselves to deceitful teachings, and still have the Spirit of God in them. The one who brings such teaching should not be received or given merit - it is akin to taking part in his wicked works.

You must understand that you must abide in the teaching of Christ - and anyone who teaches otherwise should be viewed as John clearly states. Be careful, its not a game.

 

[Jim Parker]

Judas never became faithless. He was always faithless that The Lord Jesus Christ was his personal Savior.

Chapter and verse please.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yep. And grieving the Spirit all the while.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

Please notice that even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't undo the sealing with the Spirit. If that were possible, this would have been the perfect in which to make the statement. But Paul doesn't go there.

I agree.There is also the 'evil' or human good aspect of apostasy also. And that is where the majority of us fail most often.

Do not quench the Spirit.1 Thess 5:19.

The majority of us are out doing 'good' on our own and not through the power of the Spirit. We make our own set of rules,we set our own subjective levels of good enough........and try our darn best to do enough to please God. This is a form of apostasy. Relying on ourselves and our best efforts all the while denying the true Faith.....which is Trust in The Lord Jesus Christs finished work.

Many, Many believers live in apostasy and have pretty much cleaned up their overt sins. They spend their whole lives quenching the Spirit with their white knuckle best efforts to please Him from their flesh.

But as you say......if they have ever trusted in Christ alone. They are sealed, it was a done deal when they believed. Eph 4:30.

Satans ace trump is religion. And religion has man working for salvation or maintaining salvation. Many follow doctrines of demons after they are saved. They are just following demons who are ACTING as the light.

2 Cor 11:15~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

 

[gr8grace3]

Chapter and verse please.

Post #99 .

 

[Jim Parker]

I am defending eternal security, and then you 'assume' or 'insinuate' that I believe in purgatory? That makes no sense.

at you post #85 you said:
"Many believers went astray and did not endure. So they will have to be refined as if through fire to be presented holy and blameless. They lost their chance to do it in time and Glorify the Lord in time. So their works are burned and they are saved as if through fire..........to be presented holy and blameless."

According to the RCC, that is EXACTLY what "Purgatory" is about.

From: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

And that's what you stated must happen.
Therefore, I concluded that you hold to the RCC teaching of Purgatory.
How is your Purgatory different from theirs?

I agree with 2 judgement's.

That's ok but, scripture doesn't.

Bema seat. Evaluation of those who believed.
Great white throne. Judgement/condemnation of those who never believed.

Chapter and verse about "evaluation of those who believed" please.
Jesus said there are two possible outcomes: (1) heaven and (2) hell.
I already gave you the scripture for that.
Jesus did not say anything about "door number 3"; going to Purgatory to get tidied up.

Maybe I missed it.
Enlighten me.

 

[Jim Parker]

Many in OSNAS claim that one is only saved as long as they continue to believe, and then point to the present tense in certain cherry picked verses, all the while ignoring all the verses where the aorist tense (simple occurrence) is used to indicate that one saved by a simple ocurrence of believing.

I just posted you from Exegetical Fallacies why the tense is NEVER determinative of the meaning of the verse.
See my post #81.
Using to the "aorist tense" to "prove" OSAS is an invalid hermeneutical method.

See: D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, Baker Book House, 1984, ISBN 0-8010-2499-4, p. 70.