Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[MarkT]

It's not what I see but what you're not seeing. The Greek word for "severed" has 2 uses, according to my lexicon. To free from, dissever from. Paul would have contradicted himself if he meant to be unsealed in Him. Because Eph 1:13,14 is clear about being sealed from a single occurrence of "having believed" and the sealed one being a possession of God and is guaranteed for the day of redemption.

To sever is to cut off. But here Paul is saying "you who would be justified by the law" are severed or cut off from Christ. He is talking about circumcision and the benefit of circumcision. So it's not really relevant.

Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

What is being said if not a guarantee of eternal security by means of this sealing?

Having believed the gospel that was preached to them. You're assuming Paul preached OSAS, but as I told you before, the only thing that is irrevocable is God's word.

So, to be "free from" Christ doesn't mean to lose salvation, as commonly assumed or presumed, but by means of returning to the failed Law system which Christ fulfilled by His own sacrifice, one has become free from (severed from) the benefits of being in union with Him.

Free from the benefits of being in union with him? The consequence of falling away is death and eternal destruction. 2 Thess. 1:8-10

What are the benefits? Fellowship, which is described as being "filled with the Holy Spirit" in Eph 5:18 or "walking by means of the Spirit" in Gal 5:16. Those so filled or walking by His means cannot sin. That is a definite benefit.

Fellowship is not the same thing as being filled with the Spirit. Paul said don't get drunk with wine but be filled with the Spirit. Eph. 5:18 certainly does not mean they can not sin, otherwise Paul would not say 'do not sin.' Eph. 4:26 and do not grieve the Spirit Eph. 4:30 And quench the Spirit does not mean loss of fellowship. To quench is to put out as a fire is put out.

The flip side is to either grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19), which means loss of fellowship, or not being filled with the Spirit and not walking by His means.

So, one is "severed" from Christ WHENEVER they are sinning, which means they are grieving the Spirit and quenching Him.

If my analysis is incorrect, please take it point by point and please show me where I'm wrong in my analysis.

No. We are not severed from Christ when we sin. We are disciplined, not severed.

 

[Nathan]

I never said it wouldn't. In fact, when one sins, they ARE away from Christ. Totally out of fellowship. Recall this verse:
2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?

There is no sin in the light, only in darkness. John said it this way:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

iow, one cannot sin and be in fellowship with Christ or God. In fact, we need purification from sin. Which is why John then wrote 1:9.


Then why did Jesus say that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24 and Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23?

So, of course eternal life is something the believer possesses. The Bible couldn't be more clear.


And...it's a possession, something we HAVE.


lol. I have no argument against John's teaching. It's your misunderstanding of John's teaching that you mistakenly think I'm arguing against. iow, it's your views on John's teaching that I am arguing against.


Correct. But not in the way you're taking it.


Where did John ever suggest "only one sin"? Please provide evidence from Scripture that supports your claims. Per forum rules.


Please point out how this passage supports your claim about "only one sin". I see no evidence.

The reason Jesus said we 'have' eternal life, is because we 'have' the Spirit in us.

That is why anyone who does not have the Spirit does not have eternal life.

You cant 'posses' it unless your God. It can be in you, through the Spirit in you.

1 Timothy 6
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which he will display at the proper time-he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

God alone has immortality. He possess it, and gives it to us through the indwelljng of the Spirit.

Maybe you use words thinking they mean something else? I have done that before myself. It's easy to do really, but it does lead to confusion when communicating to others.

Your not arguing with me, your arguing with Johns words. . No two ways around it. I'm posting his words, and you say they mean something they don't. Those aren't my words I'm posting.

Sin leads to death, yes? Do you believe there is some sin that will not bring death? If you do, do you think satan was actually telling the truth to Eve?

 

[Nathan]

I never suggested that it was. Only believers are sealed. And this sealing occurs WHEN one believes, because Paul said, "having believed" in the aorist tense. That means from a single occurrence of believing, one is sealed IN HIM.


The ESV fails to properly translate the aorist tense, when the proper translation is "having believed". However, even the ESV recognizes the past tense meaning of the aorist tense. So, from an act of belief in the past, one is sealed IN HIM.


I don't believe I've ever made that mistake. If so, it was a tired typo. I'm VERY FAMILIAR with the correct wording of the verse. We are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise.


Are you not aware that the Spirit IS the seal?? The word "seal" is a noun here, not a verb.

Interesting

I do realize that the Spirit is the seal, and is why I was pointing it out to you. You keep saying sealed "in Him", but the passages just say we are sealed with Him.

I think this is another case of you not understanding the definition of the word "sealed". it is not the same definition of something being put into something else, then 'sealed' so as the object is contained. That's not the Biblical definition.

sfrag-id'-zo; from G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest:—(set a, set to) seal up, stop.

It's a mark. It's not a lid. A Biblical seal was used to describe something that is promised to someone who has not yet acquired possession of that which is promised. Yet you keep saying we posses it.

The Holy Spirit, the 'seal', is what guarantees our inheritance and redemption until we acquire possestion of it. It helps to keep things in context when we study. You seem to not quote full passages when using certain phrases.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:14 (ESV) 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[chessman]

The reason Jesus said we 'have' eternal life, is because we 'have' the Spirit in us.

John 5:24 was stated by Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to them.

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

The reason He said that the one who hears His word and believes "has eternal life" is because:
1. It's true
2. that person "has (past tense) passed from death into life". i.e. that person "will never perish".

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.​

 

[Nathan]

John 5:24 was stated by Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to them.

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

The reason He said that the one who hears His word and believes "has eternal life" is because:
1. It's true
2. that person "has (past tense) passed from death into life". i.e. that person "will never perish".

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand.​

Do you think the disciples had eternal life before they had the Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace]

chessman said: ↑
So John 10:29 could be translated 'My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [but the subject of this sentence], and no one [else] can seize them from the Father’s hand'???

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand.

It's really simple.
It says that no one can snatch a believer out of the father's hand.
- Some one other than the believer might try to snatch the believer out of the Father's hand but, he won't be able to do it.

Then prove that "no one" only means "other than the believer", which isn't found anywhere in John 10 or anywhere else in Scripture.

It does not say that a believer can't change his mind and leave.
- People do not "snatch" themselves but they can walk away.

Where does the Bible say in plain language that they can "walk away, and thus lose their salvation". I know that's the assumption being made, but where in the Bible is this plainly communicated?

 

[Nathan]

Where does the Bible say in plain language that they can "walk away, and thus lose their salvation". I know that's the assumption being made, but where in the Bible is this plainly communicated?

When Paul was giving instruction to Timothy on who to choose for overseer's in the Church, he told Timothy not to choose recent converts, because they had the greater probability of being 'puffed up' by sinful pride. This pride could then lead them away from Christ, 'falling away' from Him, which would result in 'falling into' the same condemnation of satan.

1 Timothy 3:6 (ESV) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

 

[FreeGrace]

To sever is to cut off.

Who doesn't easily understand that fellowship can be cut off. Just consider the prodigal son. That's exactly what he did with his father. He cut off fellowship with him.

Having believed the gospel that was preached to them. You're assuming Paul preached OSAS, but as I told you before, the only thing that is irrevocable is God's word.

The Bible says plainly that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Notice, please, that Paul used the plural, "giftS". He wasn't referring to just one thing. And, prior to 11:29, he specifically described 3 of God's gifts:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24 and 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

Please explain how Paul was clear about not referring to any of these 3 gifts of God.

Fellowship is not the same thing as being filled with the Spirit.

I didn't say it was, either. I don't believe they are the same.

Paul said don't get drunk with wine but be filled with the Spirit. Eph. 5:18 certainly does not mean they can not sin, otherwise Paul would not say 'do not sin.'

How in the world could one 'not sin' unless they ARE filled with the Spirit? Paul was getting at the core of the issue by his command.

No believer can 'not sin' unless filled with the Holy Spirit. Just remember that the sin nature is quite good at acting moral, decent, etc. And fooling everyone around them. But unless all that action is from the power of of the filling of the Holy Spirit, it is just human good, or relative righteousness. And this is what God thinks about our righteousnesses:
Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

This is the meaning of the Hebrew word for "filthy":
OT:5708
from an unused root meaning to set a period [compare OT:5710, OT:5749]; the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling:

So, "filthy rags" means 'used menstrual rags'. That's how God views all righteous acts.

 

[FreeGrace]

Interesting

I do realize that the Spirit is the seal, and is why I was pointing it out to you. You keep saying sealed "in Him", but the passages just say we are sealed with Him.

Let's see the plain words of Scripture:
Eph 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

The words "in Him" actually occur in the verse; which is why I quote the verse that way.

 

[Jim Parker]

How is this an a proof of anything?

Because we communicate with language.
Language has meaning.
If you don't understand how language works then you won't get the meaning.
And that's how got the wrong meaning out of the "Snatch out of his hand" verse.
You failed to understand the grammar.

 

[chessman]

Do you think the disciples had eternal life before they had the Spirit?

Yes, it's true that the ones that listened to His word and believed the One who sent Him truly did have eternal life.

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

But your question is not relevant to what Jesus said in John 5:24. He wasn't talking to His disciples then.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, thus also the Son makes alive whomever he wishes.
​

Yep, you guessed it, all present tense verbs. Why??? Because Jesus was (and still is) doing those very works presently.

 

[chessman]

"No one" is the subject.

"No one" is an adjective in John 10:29, not the subject of the sentence.

From: "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham:

"The subject is the noun (or pronoun) that is uppermost in mind when the sentence is formed and is the focus of attention."

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/3o8IEC0

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. ​

"My father" is the subject of the sentence.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, it's true that the ones that listened to His word and believed the One who sent Him truly did have eternal life.

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

But your question is not relevant to what Jesus said in John 5:24. He wasn't talking to His disciples then.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, thus also the Son makes alive whomever he wishes.
​

Yep, you guessed it, all present tense verbs. Why??? Because Jesus was (and still is) doing those very works presently.

So then do you believe a person has eternal life apart from the Spirit?

 

[chessman]

So then do you believe a person has eternal life apart from the Spirit?

No. I believe The Son makes alive (presently) whomever He wishes, "just as" The Father does and just as The Spirit does.

 

[Nathan]

No. I believe The Son makes alive (presently) whomever He wishes, "just as" The Father does and just as The Spirit does.

So then a person must have the Spirit to have eternal life? Just to clairify. I have to admit, you had me wondering for a moment that you believed someone had eternal life without having the Spirit.

Your statement above does bring up another question; do you think that Jesus and the Spirit work independently from each other and the Father?

 

[GodsGrace]

What is not taught in Scripture is the idea that Gods seal is valid apart from His Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

We should not be so foolish to insert "by" in the place of "with". If the Spirit is not in a person, the seal is not there either.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's really simple.
It says that no one can snatch a believer out of the father's hand.
- Some one other than the believer might try to snatch the believer out of the Father's hand but, he won't be able to do it.

It does not say that a believer can't change his mind and leave.
- People do not "snatch" themselves but they can walk away.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never suggested that it was. Only believers are sealed. And this sealing occurs WHEN one believes, because Paul said, "having believed" in the aorist tense. That means from a single occurrence of believing, one is sealed IN HIM.


The ESV fails to properly translate the aorist tense, when the proper translation is "having believed". However, even the ESV recognizes the past tense meaning of the aorist tense. So, from an act of belief in the past, one is sealed IN HIM.


I don't believe I've ever made that mistake. If so, it was a tired typo. I'm VERY FAMILIAR with the correct wording of the verse. We are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise.


Are you not aware that the Spirit IS the seal?? The word "seal" is a noun here, not a verb.

Hi FG,
I'm sooo tired of hearing about the seal.

I'd like to ask you this.
Of course you know that Kings of that period could send a SEALED decree, creating some law or other, that the population had to adhere to.

Did you know that a decree, that was sealed by the King with his special seal,
could be undone?

It could, by another sealed decree. You could confirm this online, I'm sure.

SO,

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
But if we leave our faith and return to the pollution of the world,
will the Holy Spirit be able to abide in us?

Can the Holy Spirit and continued sin, live together?
Mathew 12:43-45 comes to mind.

JESUS Himself said that if one denies Him, Jesus will also deny that person before the Father.
Mathew 10:33

If a person LEAVES God, he is, in effect, denying God.
If a person returns to the world, he is, in effect, denying God.
John 3:36

 

[PeterJens]

The problem is simple. In your heart is their love driven by God or desires for the
pleasures of this world?
The pleasures of this world are temporary and futile, an illusion of the moment, something
filling and then gone.

Love is eternal, founded in Christ and the cross, something that reigns and dictates the
beauty of interactions today, and those of tomorrow.

So we choose our loyalty. To the temporary pleasures of today or to learning and walking
in the eternal love of Christ. You are either in one or the other, there is no halfway house,
or we have failed to complete so lets forget about completing and put eternal rewards on top
of worldly success.

 

[chessman]

Second COMPLETE THOUGHT:
No one (subject) can seize (verb) them (direct object) from His hand. (Prepositional phrase giving more information about the verb.)

The underlined is not even what the verse says much less the verse's correct grammar and morphology. You've removed "the Father" from the portion of the verse coming after the conjunction and inserted your own text. 'from His hand' is not even in the Text. Nor would it form a "complete thought" if it were there. Who's hand???

Furthermore, "no one" means exactly what it says. No one. It is literally the neuter of "one" (not one).

3762 [e]
oudeis
οὐδεὶς
no one
Adj-NMS

3762 oudeís (from 3756 /ou "no, not" and 1520 /heís, "one") – properly, not one; no one, nothing.
3762 /oudeís ("no one, nothing at all") is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions.
3762 (oudeís) is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included within the premise (supposition).
3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.


3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
the
Art-GMS

3962 [e]
Patros
Πατρός .
Father
N-GMS

As Jesus said the same thing, using two ways:

1. My Father is greater than all
and
2. no one can seize from the Father’s hand

The Father is greater than all = no one can seize from the Father's hand. Jesus is making the same point, either way.

Yet, your hypothetical idea (and made-up verse) has Jesus essentially saying 'My Father is greater than all (but for the exceptions).