Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[gr8grace3]

I would definitely say the condemnation will be harsh. I don't know why you call it discipline when Paul doesn't. There is no where you will ever find a believer being condemned, so I'm not sure why you would try and say such things.

Nathan. You are trying to convince us, using 1 Tim 3:6, that a recent convert who becomes puffed up in his leadership role........will be condemned the SAME as the devil. I am NOT.

If A believer in this position falls into that trap they may be condemned in their flesh BY the devil......1 Tim 3:6. The Lord may hand us over to the accuser to kill us physically. 1 Cor 5:5.

It is divine discipline in our flesh, because a believer/saved person cannot be condemned eternally. We are sealed with the Spirit the moment we believe. Hence the words ' recent convert' in 1 Tim 3:6. they are sealed with the Spirit the moment they believed and cannot be eternally condemned. Rom 8:1 NASB, Eph 4:30.

So the sealed, 'recent convert' in 1 Tim 3:6 cannot be condemned the SAME as the devil. But that believers flesh can be destroyed by the devil, so God can take the believer home. 1 Cor 5:5.

 

[gr8grace3]

There is no where you will ever find a believer being condemned, so I'm not sure why you would try and say such things.

And just to be clear, and let you know why I am not following you and do not understand what you are trying to say.

Your above quote and then using 1 Tim 3:6 to show us, prove to us, that a believer can be condemned the same as the devil.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did i say that ?
Another use for seal was a king would use his seal stamp very often a ring.. to let others know the decree was not fake news..

Right Reba.

And sometimes a King would annul a decree by issuing a new one!

The writers of the N.T. knew this and so did not hesitate to use the expression that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, it's referring to a person who is PRESENTLY in a saved state.

We never take one or two verses and make doctrine out of them.
The bible is a complete thought and that must always be kept in mind.

When a verse seems to be out of place, we go to the majority of the N.T., we don't make a new doctrine.

If only the writer's of the N.T. knew Calvin would be born one day, they would have been more careful in their wordingj.
It seem inconceivable to them that eternal security would ever be understood from their writings since it was obvious to them that God would judge us on our behavior and not just on our belief system.

WE MUST BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD.
IN THE TRINITY.
IN THE RESURRECTION.

The church right after Jesus' death was very active in stopping heresies.
Maybe it had more authority then?

Today it seems there are so many churches that there is not ONE that can stop a heresy.
I believe this is a big problem.

P.S.
Speaking generally, I'm not saying YOU try to make the new doctrine!

 

[Nathan]

Right Reba.

And sometimes a King would annul a decree by issuing a new one!

The writers of the N.T. knew this and so did not hesitate to use the expression that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, it's referring to a person who is PRESENTLY in a saved state.

We never take one or two verses and make doctrine out of them.
The bible is a complete thought and that must always be kept in mind.

When a verse seems to be out of place, we go to the majority of the N.T., we don't make a new doctrine.

If only the writer's of the N.T. knew Calvin would be born one day, they would have been more careful in their wordingj.
It seem inconceivable to them that eternal security would ever be understood from their writings since it was obvious to them that God would judge us on our behavior and not just on our belief system.

WE MUST BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD.
IN THE TRINITY.
IN THE RESURRECTION.

The church right after Jesus' death was very active in stopping heresies.
Maybe it had more authority then?

Today it seems there are so many churches that there is not ONE that can stop a heresy.
I believe this is a big problem.

P.S.
Speaking generally, I'm not saying YOU try to make the new doctrine!

We actually have a 100% sure way of knowing what the NT writers meant and believed. A way to 'interpret' some of the more seemingly difficult passages that cause two different views.

It's what the writers called the "Scriptures". They used Moses(all his books) and the Prophets(major and minor) to teach the Gospel. Psalms is the most quoted book of the NT even.

What has happened, and largely due to the 'canonization' of what we call the Bible, is that man has put aside the "Old" testament - which is so cleverly hidden in plain view. I mean, come on, they even called it the "Old" testament.

If Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and all the other writers thought the books of Moses and Prophets were significant and useful to understand salvation, I think we should too. Yet many in today's churches just think its good for some old stories and how God 'used' to save people. Seriously, there are some who think that people in the "Old" testament were saved in a different manner than us.

Luk 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Act 17:2-3
And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.”

Act 17:11-12
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

There is no doctrine spoke about in the NT that is contrary to that which is written about in the Scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where did i say that ?
Another use for seal was a king would use his seal stamp very often a ring.. to let others know the decree was not fake news..

What does it matter how physical seals can be used? How is that in any way related to the Holy Spirit Himself, who is God's seal upon His own possession?

We cannot try to compare physical seals with the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The problem is that the charge of my not understanding grammar wasn't explained. Just a claim made.

Please explain how I don't understand the grammar, if I don't. Don't just throw claims around."

See my post # 1162

That post was directed to another poster and therefore, does not apply to your claim about what I don't understand.

 

[reba]

I wasn't just the words how the word seal was used..

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
This was my question:
"My question for you is this: where is any Scripture that addresses the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit"

Your provided:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Sure. But there was more to my question:

and teaches that God will break that seal, or undo that seal, or un-seal that seal? Where?""

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

God doesn't break the seal; the fallen-away ex-believer does.

There is nothing in Heb 6:4-6 or anywhere else that addresses the sealing with the Holy Spirit and says that a "fallen-awe ex-believer" can break the seal.

In fact, such an idea is refuted by Eph 1:14. Which wasn't included with the 2 verses that were provided. So, let's examine it.

" who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

We know what a guarantee is and means.

Now, what does v.14 guarantee? That the sealing with the Holy Spirit guarantees our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession.

And, all this is based on "having believed" (aorist tense) in v.13. Not any kind of on-going action on the part of the one so sealed.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan. You are trying to convince us, using 1 Tim 3:6, that a recent convert who becomes puffed up in his leadership role........will be condemned the SAME as the devil. I am NOT.

If A believer in this position falls into that trap they may be condemned in their flesh BY the devil......1 Tim 3:6. The Lord may hand us over to the accuser to kill us physically. 1 Cor 5:5.

It is divine discipline in our flesh, because a believer/saved person cannot be condemned eternally. We are sealed with the Spirit the moment we believe. Hence the words ' recent convert' in 1 Tim 3:6. they are sealed with the Spirit the moment they believed and cannot be eternally condemned. Rom 8:1 NASB, Eph 4:30.

So the sealed, 'recent convert' in 1 Tim 3:6 cannot be condemned the SAME as the devil. But that believers flesh can be destroyed by the devil, so God can take the believer home. 1 Cor 5:5.

Your absolutely correct. I am trying to convince you. I am hoping that somehow you will see the truth of this which is written in plain words for all to see.

1 Timothy 3:6 speaks of a believer, who turns from Christ, will receive the same condemnation of the devil. Its right there in plain words. There are NO other passages that say a believer who is in Christ will receive condemnation. You are trying to tell others that a believer, who is in Christ, can receive condemnation. That is simply not true.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

You try and say that the devil is able to bring this about??? How can the devil condemn when it is Christ who has justified us???

Rom 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us

1 Timothy 3:6 does not speak of "divine discipline", you keep on adding words to passages that do not have them. That passage speaks of condemnation. There is a HUGE difference between discipline and condemnation. I ASSURE you, the devil is not going to receive "divine discipline" from God - and neither will those who are not in Christ.

A convert, a believer, does receive the Spirit of God - His seal. But if a person turns from the living God, and turns from the power of the Spirit working in their lives, there no more remains a sacrifice for their sin. You CANNOT trample underfoot the blood of Christ, the blood of the covenant God makes with you, and then 'expect' Him to forgive you based on something you did at one time in the past. That is a salvation based on works - and that is condemned.

Luk 19:22
He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29"

Of course the gifts are related to the call. How can they not be? It's one sentence.

How does being in "one sentence" make them related? If Paul referred to believers and unbelievers in one sentence, would that make them related? Of course not.

The plain language is clear; Paul was referring to two things that are irrevocable; God's gifts AND God's call.

 

[Nathan]

And just to be clear, and let you know why I am not following you and do not understand what you are trying to say.

Your above quote and then using 1 Tim 3:6 to show us, prove to us, that a believer can be condemned the same as the devil.

Your not following or understanding because you want to think I am saying something that I am not. I NEVER said a believer, who is a person that is in Christ, can be condemned. It is ONLY when that believer turns from Christ, forsaking Him, that the then 'person' will receive the condemnation.

There is NO condemnation for those in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does it say that believers will be condemned?

Here's just one example of how "condemned" is used in Scripture in reference to believers:
1 John 3:19-20
19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

The word does not always refer to God's sentencing unbelievers to the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am not sure you really understand what Gods seal is. It is not a lid He puts on us. It is His Spirit.

Of course I believe that. Eph 1:13 plainly says so. And I've been real clear about that in all my posts.

So the real question is can a believer, who once had the Spirit, no longer have the Spirit?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, "Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Nothing here about losing the Spirit.

In fact, when Jesus prophesied about the coming Holy Spirit, He said this:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— John 14:16

Does this sound like one who has been sealed can be unsealed?

 

[Nathan]

Here's just one example of how "condemned" is used in Scripture in reference to believers:
1 John 3:19-20
19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

The word does not always refer to God's sentencing unbelievers to the lake of fire.

That is a believers own self condemnation, it is a self doubt/judgement, not the one the devil receives. There is no passage that states God, the devil, or anyone else can condemn a believer in Christ.

 

[gr8grace3]

Your not following or understanding because you want to think I am saying something that I am not. I NEVER said a believer, who is a person that is in Christ, can be condemned. It is ONLY when that believer turns from Christ, forsaking Him, that the then 'person' will receive the condemnation.

There is NO condemnation for those in Christ.

1 Tim 3:6 says the recent convert may become proud/puffed up. It doesn't say the recent convert may turn from Christ,forsaking Him, is no longer a believer and is no longer in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Of course I believe that. Eph 1:13 plainly says so. And I've been real clear about that in all my posts.


Nothing here about losing the Spirit.

In fact, when Jesus prophesied about the coming Holy Spirit, He said this:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— John 14:16

Does this sound like one who has been sealed can be unsealed?

Well, I suppose everyone has a right to believe what they want. Free will. I guess I'll just maintain that the writer of the letter to the Ephesians uses the word 'seal' in a manner that absolutely cannot be proven to be like a lid on a jar. It was a 'seal' that authoritative people put on items to designate their approval and authority.

Hebrews 10 is quite clear that those who have outraged the Spirit of grace will receive the judgement that the adversaries of God receive.

I think that the reason you may have trouble understanding what I am saying, is that you choose to pull one verse out of a passage, instead of leaving it connected with what it is talking about.

Jhn 14:15-17
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

The 'context' of the passage is that Jesus is leaving. The disciples were sad because He was not going to be with them anymore. So for their comfort, He tells them if they love Him, they will keep His commandments - and - they do not have to be 'sad' about Him being gone, because they will receive the "Helper" who will be with them "forever". The "forever" was a contrast to the fact that Jesus was going away. He was letting them know that once they received the Spirit, He would not leave them like Jesus was.

This has NOTHING to do with a person who turns and forsakes Christ. If a person forsakes Christ, they forsake the Spirit. They don't "unseal" themselves or "break it", they leave the seal completely. It means that God will not forsake us - it does not mean we cannot forsake Him.

Jhn 8:31
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Jde 1:20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

1 Tim 3:6 says the recent convert may become proud/puffed up. It doesn't say the recent convert may turn from Christ,forsaking Him, is no longer a believer and is no longer in Christ.

There is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. Therefore, the one who becomes puffed up with conceit, who "falls" into the condemnation, cannot be a person in Christ anymore.

"falls" - empíptō, em-pip'-to; from G1722 and G4098; to fall on, i.e. (literally) to be entrapped by, or (figuratively) be overwhelmed with:—fall among (into).

Luk 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

A young convert is not yet established in the faith has a greater possibility to fall away. This is precisely why Paul was giving this instruction.

Heb 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

 

[gr8grace3]

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

You try and say that the devil is able to bring this about??? How can the devil condemn when it is Christ who has justified us???

No, I am not Nathan. satan cannot condemn us eternally. Christ created a human Spirit in us the moment we believe and that human Spirit is justified in Christ FOREVER. But our flesh is not redeemed,justified or getting better. And God may deliver us over to satan for the destruction/condemnation of our FLESH. And God will bring His new creation(our justified human spirit) Home to Him.

There is NO condemnation for our new creation in Christ. But there may be "early" condemnation for our flesh if we fail to advance in Gods plan for our life........1 Cor 5:5~~ To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Nathan]

No, I am not Nathan. satan cannot condemn us eternally. Christ created a human Spirit in us the moment we believe and that human Spirit is justified in Christ FOREVER. But our flesh is not redeemed,justified or getting better. And God may deliver us over to satan for the destruction/condemnation of our FLESH. And God will bring His new creation(our justified human spirit) Home to Him.

There is NO condemnation for our new creation in Christ. But there may be "early" condemnation for our flesh if we fail to advance in Gods plan for our life........1 Cor 5:5~~ To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

satan cannot condemn us at all, not temporarily or eternally. Not at all.

I agree, that God uses whatever He chooses to discipline us - even destroy our flesh - but that is never, in no way shape or form, condemnation. A person has to insist that Paul made a 'mistake' by using the word condemnation in that letter if they are going to try and write off this fact. Paul did not make a mistake.

You cannot show where there is ANY condemnation. Destruction of the flesh, 1 Corinthians 5:5, is not condemnation. They are two totally separate things. If we want to talk about that passage in its correct context I am completely willing to. There is some great truths that do relate to the fact that a person who continues in sin, without repentance, will lead to their condemnation.

Paul was telling the church that they should separate this person from their midst so that they will not become corrupt also, and so that maybe through the severe discipline of God, the sinner might repent and not be eternally condemned. The whole point of 1 Corinthians 5:5 is so that the believer would not be condemned.

1Co 10:9-12
We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

There was a very proud spirit in the church at Corinth, where people thought they could do anything they wanted because in the end it did not matter. They were puffed up by the idea they had done something to have salvation, and that God would not destroy them. There was not much fear before them.

1Co 11:27-32
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Discipline is done so that condemnation can be averted.

 

[gr8grace3]

satan cannot condemn us at all, not temporarily or eternally. Not at all.

I agree, that God uses whatever He chooses to discipline us - even destroy our flesh - but that is never, in no way shape or form, condemnation. A person has to insist that Paul made a 'mistake' by using the word condemnation in that letter if they are going to try and write off this fact. Paul did not make a mistake.

In the context of 1 Tim 3:6 'condemnation' is judgement. To whom much is given, much is required.

Teachers are held to a high standard and are given much to feed His sheep. If they abuse this gift, they are going to be judged by how they used it. They will be judged "much' because they were given 'much.'

James 3:1~~New American Standard Bible
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Judgement in James 3:1 is the same word Paul used in 1 Tim 3:6.

And the destruction of our flesh, is one of the strictest judgement's that we can come under as a believer. And God may hand us over to satan for this condemnation/judgement.

1 Cor 5:5~~New American Standard Bible
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.