Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

[Nathan]

Faith is a noun (which doesn't save you in and of itself). You, the individual sentient being with a heart and will and ability to believe, must believe.

Heb 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please God. For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out."

Gal 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law)."

Paul was not reluctant to confess that he believed; who never hinted that faith is passive, or that God believes for you, or that faith given (a noun) is the same as believing (a verbal substantive describing one who has believed).

Yes, you either believe or not - but you are unable to believe until that gift of God(which is faith) is given to you. When God gives that gift of faith, then you have the ability to believe for salvation - or deny of condemnation.

The issue is people try to put the cart before the horse - the egg before the chicken - belief before faith. Faith comes first, then belief follows it. God saves us, then we are able to believe it - in that manner, no man can boast.

 

[Gregg T]

Yes, you either believe or not - but you are unable to believe until that gift of God(which is faith) is given to you. When God gives that gift of faith, then you have the ability to believe for salvation - or deny of condemnation.

The issue is people try to put the cart before the horse - the egg before the chicken - belief before faith. Faith comes first, then belief follows it. God saves us, then we are able to believe it - in that manner, no man can boast.

God saved you first, and then you believed?

 

[Nathan]

God saved you first, and then you believed?

Absolutely

 

[Gregg T]

I stated: God saved you first, and then you believed? And you replied:

Absolutely

did you believe Jesus was crucified and resurrected before you were saved?

 

[Nathan]

I stated: God saved you first, and then you believed? And you replied:



did you believe Jesus was crucified and resurrected before you were saved?

Not according to God. I was dead and had no knowledge of Jesus - much less His crucifixion and resurrection. God made me alive, He saved me from the sin(separation from Him) and placed me in Christ. So He saved me, and because He gave me the faith to believe it, I now do.

He did not save me because I believed - I believe because He saved me.

 

[Gregg T]

Not according to God. I was dead and had no knowledge of Jesus - much less His crucifixion and resurrection. God made me alive, He saved me from the sin(separation from Him) and placed me in Christ. So He saved me, and because He gave me the faith to believe it, I now do.

He did not save me because I believed - I believe because He saved me.

Did you repent of unbelief before God made you alive, saved you, and put you in Christ?

 

[Nathan]

Did you repent of unbelief before God made you alive, saved you, and put you in Christ?

No. I did not know I was in unbelief until He put me in Christ. I was dead before I was made alive. I knew absolutely nothing(truthfully) about spiritual matters until I was made alive in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

The issue is people try to put the cart before the horse - the egg before the chicken - belief before faith. Faith comes first, then belief follows it.

To be clear, faith is the CONTEXT of what we believe. So, yes, in that sense, we need CONTENT to believe before we can believe the CONTENT.

God saves us, then we are able to believe it - in that manner, no man can boast.

No, this is getting the cart before the horse.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH. And faith is the content that we believe. And by that believing, God saves us.

How do you understand Paul's answer in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The verb 'believe' is aorist tense, a point in time, generally past time. And 'will be saved' is future tense, which refutes your claim about being saved before belief.

 

[Gregg T]

No. I did not know I was in unbelief until He put me in Christ. I was dead before I was made alive. I knew absolutely nothing(truthfully) about spiritual matters until I was made alive in Christ.

Nathan,
Thank you for being open, straightforward, and honest. I do not agree with you regarding what the Lord requires of us before His setting us into Christ; but now I perceive your disposition.

 

[FreeGrace]

He did not save me because I believed - I believe because He saved me.

How do you understand 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

No. I did not know I was in unbelief until He put me in Christ. I was dead before I was made alive. I knew absolutely nothing(truthfully) about spiritual matters until I was made alive in Christ.

Which text says all this? That we are put in Christ before we believe. Thanks.

 

[Gregg T]

To be clear, faith is the CONTEXT of what we believe. So, yes, in that sense, we need CONTENT to believe before we can believe the CONTENT.


No, this is getting the cart before the horse.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH. And faith is the content that we believe. And by that believing, God saves us.

How do you understand Paul's answer in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The verb 'believe' is aorist tense, a point in time, generally past time. And 'will be saved' is future tense, which refutes your claim about being saved before belief.

FreeGrace,
Did you repent of unbelief, i.e. from the disobedience of not believing, before you were saved?

 

[Nathan]

To be clear, faith is the CONTEXT of what we believe. So, yes, in that sense, we need CONTENT to believe before we can believe the CONTENT.


No, this is getting the cart before the horse.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH. And faith is the content that we believe. And by that believing, God saves us.

How do you understand Paul's answer in Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

The verb 'believe' is aorist tense, a point in time, generally past time. And 'will be saved' is future tense, which refutes your claim about being saved before belief.

Paul was not lying. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. I am most certain that I will be saved.

Does your translation say something about believing before God will save you?

Do you believe God only saves someone after they do the work of believing?

 

[Nathan]

How do you understand 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Thanks.

God is pleased to save those who believe. That's how I understand it. It pleases God to save those who believe.

Do you think that it says God only is pleased to save people after they believe? I am not seeing that written anywhere.

 

[Nathan]

Which text says all this? That we are put in Christ before we believe. Thanks.

Eph 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Col 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Do dead people believe?

Rom 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Do enemies of God believe in Jesus?

When did Christ die for the sins of the world? Before or after people believe?

If a person basis the forgiveness of their sins based on if they believe or not, then that makes it a works based salvation - not the Gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,
Did you repent of unbelief, i.e. from the disobedience of not believing, before you were saved?

I would say the act of believing in Jesus Christ was a clear "change of mind" regarding my lost condition.

I would not say that prior to being exposed to the gospel, that a person was in 'disobedience of not believing'.

But, after exposure to the gospel, if one simply didn't believe the promise of eternal life by faith, then that is disobedience of unbelieving.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul was not lying. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. I am most certain that I will be saved.

Well, of course Paul was not lying. But in your agreement about believing and being saved, considering the tenses involved, how can you still say that one is saved before they believe? Paul's answer directly refutes that idea.

Does your translation say something about believing before God will save you?

Not my translation. It's what the Bible very clearly says. Both Paul's answer to the jailer and Paul's writing to the Corinthian believers in 1 Cor 1:21.

Do you believe God only saves someone after they do the work of believing?

I don't consider the action of believing to be a work, certainly not the way the Bible uses "work".

The action of believing is non-meritorious. Is that understandable, or do I need to explain further?

God saves those who believe. iow, He saves believers.

Where is the text that says He saves people so that they will or an believe? I am unaware of such a text.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,
Thank you for being open, straightforward, and honest. I do not agree with you regarding what the Lord requires of us before His setting us into Christ; but now I perceive your disposition.

Do you believe that the Lord requires someone to do something before they receive life?

If that is so, then our receiving life would be based on something we did first.

 

[FreeGrace]

God is pleased to save those who believe. That's how I understand it. It pleases God to save those who believe.

Is the order not clear? 1 Cor 1:21 basically says that God saves those who believe. The believing precedes the saving.

Do you think that it says God only is pleased to save people after they believe?

Of course I do. That's exactly what is means.

I am not seeing that written anywhere.

The Bible speaks of having eyes, but not seeing. That may be the problem.

You've got a viewpoint, but it does not line up with Scripture.

I would like to know what text led to your viewpoint that one is saved before they believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eph 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Col 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Do dead people believe?

In these verses, the 'dead' refers to spiritually dead, meaning separated from God. Of course spiritually dead people can believe. That's the requirement for being born again. That is clear from Eph 2.

Rom 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Do enemies of God believe in Jesus?

Unbelievers are enemies in the sense of being separated by their sins. When they believe, they are born again and no longer enemies.

When did Christ die for the sins of the world? Before or after people believe?

He died AFTER all the OT believers believed. But He died BEFORE most of the NT believers believed.

Your question insinuates that His death saves people. Is that correct?

If a person basis the forgiveness of their sins based on if they believe or not, then that makes it a works based salvation - not the Gospel.

What text would lead to that conclusion?

Consider this verse that refutes your conclusion: Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

I am hoping the ORDER is clear to all who read this verse. Believing PRECEDES being forgiven.

iow, forgiveness is RECEIVED after believing in Him.