Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

This is what I asked:
"I don't know what this means or refers to. What kind of people is being referred to here? Those who have already believed, and then changed their minds, or those who have never believed?"

Do you believe those people are eternal like God?

I don't see how this question has anything to do with my question that was asked for clarification so that I could answer your previous question.

I guess discussion was not the point.

 

[Nathan]

This is what I asked:
"I don't know what this means or refers to. What kind of people is being referred to here? Those who have already believed, and then changed their minds, or those who have never believed?"

I don't see how this question has anything to do with my question that was asked for clarification so that I could answer your previous question.

I guess discussion was not the point.

If you answer the question I asked, then you will find the answer to the question you asked. Sometimes its best to help others feed themselves.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But the issue is clear; can a saved person perish? You've pushed the "yes" position, but in direct contradiction with our Lord and Savior.

He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. No one has argued that Jesus EVER gave eternal life to unbelievers or unsaved people, so His statement is a clear proclamation that those given eternal life will never perish.

It is also clear that He gave no conditions to those He gives eternal life. So simply on the basis of receiving eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of faith in Christ, He says THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, once saved, and given eternal life, that one SHALL NEVER PERISH. Opposite of what you push."

He's not talking about those who fall away. John 10 is about his sheep.

I know that. But whether one of His sheep fall away or not is not relevant? Why not? Because Jesus SAYS that those He gives eternal life will never perish. So what ever happens AFTER receiving eternal life doesn't change what Jesus promises about never perishing.

I don't know what you are talking about when you say something about his sheep and conditions.

What's not to understand about NO CONDITIONS for recipients ("I give them...") of eternal life?

You want us to take note of something which isn't there.

Correct.

Illogical.

No. Biblical. Where in John 10:28 did Jesus give ANY conditions for never perishing for those He gives eternal life?

And there is nothing in the Bible about a moment of faith.

This is simply obvious. When one FIRST believes in Christ is "a moment of faith". So, from what Jesus SAID in John 5:24, we KNOW that WHEN one first believes is WHEN they FIRST HAVE eternal life.

If there is disagreement, then please explain why.

Faith has to continue or it is not faith.

Jesus noted some who "believed for a while" in Luke 8:13. They HAD faith, and then they didn't. Real life. And from other verses, we KNOW that WHEN they did believe, they were given eternal life. And the result is that they will never perish. John 10:28

"provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." Col. 1:23

Why chop up and leave out important context??

The phrase "provided that you..." obviously demands some context.

So, I'll help out here by providing the needed context:
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

So, now we know what will occur if one does continue in the faith. It's not salvation, if that's what's being assumed. It's for God "to present you (the believer) holy in His sight, w/o blemish and free from accusation".

iow, how can God present any believer holy, w/o blemish and free from accusation" IF they don't continue in the faith? Answer? Not possible.

There is nothing here about continuing in the faith in order to continue in salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But the issue is clear; can a saved person perish? You've pushed the "yes" position, but in direct contradiction with our Lord and Savior.

He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. No one has argued that Jesus EVER gave eternal life to unbelievers or unsaved people, so His statement is a clear proclamation that those given eternal life will never perish.

It is also clear that He gave no conditions to those He gives eternal life. So simply on the basis of receiving eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of faith in Christ, He says THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, once saved, and given eternal life, that one SHALL NEVER PERISH. Opposite of what you push."

So believing is no longer required after initial salvation?

JLB

To be clear, "no longer required" for WHAT, specifically? I don't want to assume anything from your somewhat vague question.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes brother!

If faith isn't now, it's not faith.

When Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, is it possible for that person to ever perish, for any reason?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you answer the question I asked, then you will find the answer to the question you asked. Sometimes its best to help others feed themselves.

Like I said:
"I guess discussion was not the point."

 

[Nathan]

Like I said:
"I guess discussion was not the point."

Discussion was the point. It just needed to start with you. If you go back in the line of posts you will see that I was asking questions that you were not responding to.

 

[JLB]

Ephsians 2: 8
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.…

Yes we are saved by grace, the power of His Life, His Spirit, through our faith.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace.

Grace teaches us, instructs us, and empowers us to live above sin, and according to the desires of the Spirit, and not the desires of the flesh.

Grace teaches us:

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:11-15

• teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
• Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed
• zealous for good works.

The grace of God that I have working within me, teaches me and empowers me, creating a desire, and power to both will and do His good pleasure, rather than living according to the sinful desires of the flesh.


I have the power to love, and forgive people, and do good things prompted by the Spirit for people, which I didn't have before I believed and was born again, and filled with His Spirit.

I have found over the years, that this desire and power to love people and do what is right, is increasing, as His life transforms mine.

Loving people and doing good to them by helping them in time of need, giving them food, clothing or financial help, is God expressing Himself through me with His great love.

All I have to do, is yield to Him, and do what I know He wants me to do.


He is working in me.


JLB

 

[JLB]

When Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, is it possible for that person to ever perish, for any reason?

Please post the scripture you are referring to, so we can see exactly what Jesus said.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Discussion was the point. It just needed to start with you. If you go back in the line of posts you will see that I was asking questions that you were not responding to.

I'm not going to tread through any number of posts trying to decide or assume whatever question you have in mind.

If you don't repeat the question, then the discussion is over.

However, my question of clarification was never answered. So it's clear I'm not to have any. That's no way to discuss an issue.

However, in trying to be helpful, this is what I asked:

"I don't know what this means or refers to. What kind of people is being referred to here? Those who have already believed, and then changed their minds, or those who have never believed?"

Once this is clarified, then I can answer whatever question you originally asked. If you repeat the question. If you don't remember it, that's ok.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"When Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, is it possible for that person to ever perish, for any reason?"

Your response:

Please post the scripture you are referring to, so we can see exactly what Jesus said.

John 10:28
" I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Here, Jesus tells us that He gives them (His sheep) eternal life, and then He tells us the result of giving them eternal life: they will never perish.

So, my question from above.

Is it possible for that person (one who has received eternal life) to ever perish, for any reason? yes or no

 

[JLB]

To be clear, "no longer required" for WHAT, specifically? I don't want to assume anything from your somewhat vague question.

The condition for receiving eternal life in Christ, is to believe.

The one who believes, is given the gift of being in Christ, where eternal life is.

Please show me the scripture where this condition of believing is no longer required, after a person is in Christ, where eternal life is.

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

For now, we are in Him, by faith, and have the hope of eternal life.

Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; Titus 1:1-3

• in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Paul had the hope of eternal life.


that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

• we who have been justified by faith, have the hope of eternal life. The hope of inheriting eternal life.

11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 1 Timothy 6:11-12

• Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called

18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. 1 Timothy 6:18-19

• that they may lay hold on eternal life.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2;7


He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. John 12:25


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The condition: Hear my voice, and follow Him, and know Him: Knowing Him. is eternal life.

• And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

These who are in Him, and know Him, are joined to Him and have access to the eternal life that us in Him, and in the end on the Day of Judgement He gives them eternal life, in which they will never perish, this comes after a life of following Him, and knowing Him.

No where in John 10, does Jesus imply that they only needed to believe past tense, but believe hear follow and know, which will result in Him giving them eternal life.

This reconciles with all the other scriptures about eternal life, and the conditions he gives.

And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
John 4:36


so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:21

Grace reigns through righteousness, not unrighteousness, unto eternal life.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

JLB

 

[JLB]

John 10:28
" I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Here, Jesus tells us that He gives them (His sheep) eternal life, and then He tells us the result of giving them eternal life: they will never perish.

So, my question from above.

Is it possible for that person (one who has received eternal life) to ever perish, for any reason? yes or no

For now, we are in Him by faith, and are joined to Him, and have the hope of inheriting eternal life.

29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

and again

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

• heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What does an heir of eternal life hope to inherit?


When Jesus gives us eternal life, we will never die, which happens at the resurrection, when we receive immortal bodies that will never die.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


If this has happened to you, then you will never die.


Is it possible for you to still die?



JLB

 

[Gregg T]

They are meant to help you think about your statement. Not quite rhetorical, but close to it. When you answer the questions(to yourself) you see how your view of salvation either is based upon you doing something or God having done something.

It can't be both. Only one gets credit for salvation, and He ain't sharing the glory of it with anyone

Its not an either / or dichotomy. God is the Savior / Redeemer / Sustainer who requires that we believe His testimony of His Son, not only of His Person but His promises also.

Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

Rom 10:10 "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

• When a person believes then the result is righteousness.
• When a person confesses then the result is salvation.

These are attibuted to a person after his confessing and believing, both action of the person believing and confessing.

 

[FreeGrace]

The condition for receiving eternal life in Christ, is to believe.

Yes, this has been well established.

The one who believes, is given the gift of being in Christ, where eternal life is.

Again, yes, this has been well established.

However, what has NOT been established, is that one who has been given the gift of being in Christ, where eternal life is, can ever perish.

In fact, Jesus proclaimed that those He gives eternal life to will never perish, in John 10:28.

So, please explain how the view that one who has been given eternal life CAN perish, given what Jesus said.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Yes. There it is: He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish.

So, again, the question: how can one who has been given eternal life ever perish? This has not been answered.

No where in John 10, does Jesus imply that they only needed to believe past tense, but believe hear follow and know, which will result in Him giving them eternal life.

What Jesus said is very clear: those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

So, again, the question: how can anyone who has been given eternal life, ever perish? These 2 ideas are diametrically opposed.

This reconciles with all the other scriptures about eternal life, and the conditions he gives.

There is only one condition, and that is to believe, which has been well established.

But, this isn't about HOW to receive eternal life. It's about the RESULT of being GIVEN eternal life, which it seems some don't want to deal with.

 

[FreeGrace]

For now, we are in Him by faith, and are joined to Him, and have the hope of inheriting eternal life.

No. The hope is eternity itself. I already HAVE eternal life because Jesus said this:
"“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

The word "has" is present tense. Please define what the present tense for 'has' means.

 

[Nathan]

I'm not going to tread through any number of posts trying to decide or assume whatever question you have in mind.

If you don't repeat the question, then the discussion is over.

However, my question of clarification was never answered. So it's clear I'm not to have any. That's no way to discuss an issue.

However, in trying to be helpful, this is what I asked:

"I don't know what this means or refers to. What kind of people is being referred to here? Those who have already believed, and then changed their minds, or those who have never believed?"

Once this is clarified, then I can answer whatever question you originally asked. If you repeat the question. If you don't remember it, that's ok.

I remember very well. If you do not want to take the time to go back so be it. I have clarified what I stated, if you would like more then I would simply point you to previous posts. The little up arrow in the quotes takes you back to the previous persons post. Makes going back and reading quite easy. If this is something you do not want to do that is your choice.

 

[Nathan]

Its not an either / or dichotomy. God is the Savior / Redeemer / Sustainer who requires that we believe His testimony of His Son, not only of His Person but His promises also.

Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

Rom 10:10 "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

• When a person believes then the result is righteousness.
• When a person confesses then the result is salvation.

These are attibuted to a person after his confessing and believing, both action of the person believing and confessing.

It is an either or dichotomy. Either God is the Savior or we are. If what we do 'saves' us, then it is not God who saves. I think that its because people look at salvation as an 'instantaneous' event that they do not see how it is through faith, but it is ongoing also.

So, you will be saved if you believe - because if you do not believe you will leave the only source of salvation. Salvation does not happen because you believe, rather, salvation has happened and if you do not believe then you will turn away from it. God saved the people from Egypt long before they believed in Him as their Savior.

Righteousness is 'credited' to us when we believe, its not a result of it. Look at the word used for "resulting in" - its the same word you and I discussed before. G1519

When we believe we are turning from our righteousness to His righteousness. His righteousness is already there, it is not a result of our belief. When we confess we are no longer speaking of our own works, but speaking of His works - which is salvation for us. Salvation is not a result of our confession.

This is done so that we cannot take any credit - whatsoever - for righteousness or salvation. Its all Him. He does it in us first, and the result of that is what we believe and confess - or reject and deny.

 

[FreeGrace]

I remember very well. If you do not want to take the time to go back so be it. I have clarified what I stated, if you would like more then I would simply point you to previous posts.

This misses my point by a large amount. Your question needed clarification before I can answer it. So if that won't be forthcoming, I cannot answer.

The little up arrow in the quotes takes you back to the previous persons post. Makes going back and reading quite easy. If this is something you do not want to do that is your choice.

Again, it seems that clarification isn't something that will be forthcoming.

Why would there be any clarification in earlier posts anyway? I wouldn't have asked for clarification if it had already been provided.

But, never mind, I can't answer until I get clarification.

 

[Nathan]

This misses my point by a large amount. Your question needed clarification before I can answer it. So if that won't be forthcoming, I cannot answer.


Again, it seems that clarification isn't something that will be forthcoming.

Why would there be any clarification in earlier posts anyway? I wouldn't have asked for clarification if it had already been provided.

But, never mind, I can't answer until I get clarification.

Sometimes the best answer to a question is another question. When you answer the question I asked, then you will have the answer to your question.