Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

Please provide any text that teaches this. Luke 8:12,13 sure doesn't. It does teach that a believer may cease to believe.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Those who believe are saved: lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe for a while, then depart from Him, are no longer believers, as they have returned to unbelieving.


Please show the scripture that says the unbelieving are saved?

But we all know what Jesus said about those who believe in John 5:24; they HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And we all know what He said about those He gives eternal life in John 10:28; they shall never perish.

So your claim is refuted by 2 very clear verses.

We all know for sure that John 5:24 doesn't say what you claim, which is why you won't quote the whole scripture with it's context, because you want to try to hide the truth.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


Here are His words which you can not explain away, that we are required to hear.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Here is His exact words as to who will receive eternal life: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

• Note: words of Christ in red

If you choose not to hear His words then, then you are willfully violating the condition He set forth for eternal life.

• he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Unbelief is Disobedience. Same Greek word, and is used interchangeably

Not true.

Unbelief and disobedience are different words in the greek text, and are not interchangeable or synonyms for one another. You may be consulting an erroneous translation, or you are conflating the two.

However, we should be obedient to God by believing Him, Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." See Acts 6:7, Rom 1:5, Rom 16:26.

 

[Gregg T]

What is the condition for salvation?

Here is the answer from Jesus: lest they should believe and be saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

If you believe there is more to being saved than believing, then please explain what more we are to do other than believe?

• lest they should believe and be saved.

According to Jesus, believe = saved.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while do indeed rejoice in their salvation, which is evidence by the illustration of the plant springing up and spouting roots.

By when persecution comes, the temptation to save themselves is great, and they depart from Christ in order to save themselves.


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who have faith to the end are saved, in which they will receive the salvation of their souls.

Peter says it this way; Same context, trial, tribulation, persecution and enduring to the end.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

The end result of a life of life, that has endured to the end, is the salvation of your soul.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


Same context, as above; Enduring under trial, tribulation, persecution,



JLB

Rather, what is the condition for union with Christ, which is a permanant union. Entering heaven is not the final goal. Salvation is not the final goal. Union with the LORD, through Jesus Christ, is the point to be reached. The LORD accomplishes this by grace through faith, saving us by standing us in Christ.

Your continual faith does not keep you saved, nor do your continual works assure your salvation; unless you are either a co-savior with the LORD or your own righteousness is acceptable to Him.

 

[JLB]

Rather, what is the condition for union with Christ, which is a permanant union.

Not true at all. No more than a marriage union is permanent, because it requires faithfulness.

Those who are in Christ, must remain connected in relationship, or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Not true at all. No more than a marriage union is permanent, because it requires faithfulness.

Those who are in Christ, must remain connected in relationship, or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

But God is not man. He is faithful.

Heb 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Th 5:24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

But God is not man. He is faithful.

Heb 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Th 5:24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Right.

Man is the one who is required to faithfully remain connected in relationship.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[Seabass]

Not true.

Unbelief and disobedience are different words in the greek text, and are not interchangeable or synonyms for one another. You may be consulting an erroneous translation, or you are conflating the two.

.
John 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" which logically implies believing is synonymous with obedience and unbelief is synonymous with disobedience.

1 Peter 2:7 "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,"

Ditto as with John 3:36 with "you therefore which believe" contrasted from "them which be disobedient" again implying belief is synonymous with obedience and unbelief is synonymous with disobedience.


Did you not make belief synonymous with obedience when you posted (in blue) "However, we should be obedient to God by believing Him, Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ? (my emp)

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"The point of Jn 5:24 is that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. It is a present possession on the basis of believing.

So, it should be obvious that WHEN one first believes in Christ, they possess eternal life."

Is there any reason to leave out believing? Jesus included believing as the basis for possessing eternal life. He said "hears and believes" because one must hear and understand before they can believe.


Right. We call those, unbelievers. But ONCE a person HAS heard and believed, they possess eternal life, so said Jesus in John 5:24.

And Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

Ok He who hears and believes the word of God; he has eternal life. True statement. It makes no sense to add 'once they believed' to his word. And his word is everything Jesus said, his sayings, his teaching and his commandments. Plus everything the LORD said in the old testament.
Matthew 13:52
And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”

 

[FreeGrace]

Here Jesus will explain who will receive eternal life, and who will not:

His words -
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Here is His exact words as to who will receive eternal life: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

• Note: words of Christ in red

If you choose not to hear His words then, then you are willfully violating the condition He set forth for eternal life.

OK. No argument. Those who don't hear and believe don't get eternal life. What is your point?

The whole point of this discussion is that those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28 This is plain statement about eternal security.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

Great verse that teaches that whoever heard and believes has eternal life. That clearly means WHEN one first believes they possess eternal life.

No one has shown otherwise.

My explanation means nothing.

Well, one must first give an explanation before we can evaluate whether it means something or nothing.

My advice to anyone is the same: Do what Jesus says, and you won't do wrong.

My advice is to believe what Jesus said when He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Those who believe are saved: lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe for a while, then depart from Him, are no longer believers, as they have returned to unbelieving.

What hasn't ever been proved is that those who believe for a while lose salvation. It remains an erroneous assumption.

And goes directly against what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: they will never perish in John 10:28.

Question: did Jesus give the second soil eternal life when they believed? Or, iow, did the second soil ever have eternal life?

Please show the scripture that says the unbelieving are saved?

This is a nonsensical question. I CAN show Scripture that clearly says those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28

Note that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

We all know for sure that John 5:24 doesn't say what you claim, which is why you won't quote the whole scripture with it's context, because you want to try to hide the truth.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

Here are His words which you can not explain away, that we are required to hear.

I don't understand your claim that John 5:24 doesn't say what I claim. My claim has always been "hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS eternal life". Note the 7 RED words and the 6 black words that immediately follow the RED words.

That IS my claim, so your claim about my claim is patently FALSE.

What I claim is what the verse SAYS, and you've failed to show otherwise.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

And what do these verses have to do with losing salvation? I see nothing at all.

Here is His exact words as to who will receive eternal life: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

Go ahead and make a point or a claim.

Note: words of Christ in red

If you choose not to hear His words then, then you are willfully violating the condition He set forth for eternal life.

I guess you've not been following the discussion. This isn't about how to get eternal life. It's about the promise of eternal security for those who have been given eternal life from John 10:28.

he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

JLB

That's been my point all along.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not true at all. No more than a marriage union is permanent, because it requires faithfulness.

Those who are in Christ, must remain connected in relationship, or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

JLB

Eph 1:13,14 doesn't permit such an idea. Those who have believed ARE sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
Not true at all. No more than a marriage union is permanent, because it requires faithfulness.

Those who are in Christ, must remain connected in relationship, or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

But God is not man. He is faithful.

Great point!!

Paul wrote 2 Tim 2:13 - if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Now, recalling from Eph 1:13,14 that the Holy Spirit's indwelling is a mark of our seal IN HIM, of course God cannot deny Himself.

Jesus prophesied that the Holy Spirit would be with us FOREVER in John 14:16.

So there's NO WAY anyone who has been given the Holy Spirit can be denied entrance into heaven.

So 2 Tim 2:12 isn't about being denied entrance into heaven but denial of reigning with Christ, a reward for "enduring" or remaining faithful.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok He who hears and believes the word of God; he has eternal life. True statement. It makes no sense to add 'once they believed' to his word. And his word is everything Jesus said, his sayings, his teaching and his commandments. Plus everything the LORD said in the old testament.

OK, now to relate this to John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life. What about them? He said they will never perish.

That is eternal security.

 

[JLB]

What hasn't ever been proved is that those who believe for a while lose salvation. It remains an erroneous assumption.


Question: did Jesus give the second soil eternal life when they believed? Or, iow, did the second soil ever have eternal life?

Yes, it has been proven clearly.

Unless you can show a scripture that says those who don't believe are saved, it will never be dis-proven.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

And goes directly against what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: they will never perish in John 10:28.

John 10:28 and it's context only provides more proof of this irrefutable truth, that those who do not believe, are no longer saved.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

• you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep

Those who no longer believe, are no longer His sheep, because they do not believe.

Those who do not believe, any longer, are not His sheep, any longer.

Unless you have a scripture that shows those who no longer believe are His sheep, you will never dis-prove this irrefutable truth.

Any time anyone who believes then, no longer believes, they fall into the catagory of: Do Not Believe.

Sheep = Believe

Those who do not believe anymore, are no longer His sheep, and they no longer follow Him, and they no longer hear His voice.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Eph 1:13,14 doesn't permit such an idea. Those who have believed ARE sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe.

This scripture you quoted is about those who believe and are given the Holy Spirit.

You need to show us a scripture that says those who do not believe anymore have the Holy Spirit.

This only validates further what I have been saying.



JLB

 

[Gregg T]

.
John 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not" which logically implies believing is synonymous with obedience and unbelief is synonymous with disobedience.

1 Peter 2:7 "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,"

Ditto as with John 3:36 with "you therefore which believe" contrasted from "them which be disobedient" again implying belief is synonymous with obedience and unbelief is synonymous with disobedience.


Did you not make belief synonymous with obedience when you posted (in blue) "However, we should be obedient to God by believing Him, Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ? (my emp)

The chiasm in Jn 3:36a is sequential, and contra-comparative. It implies that the one being obedient to the Son will perceive that He is Life, where that perception is still short of believing into Him.

ὁ πιστεύων the one believing

εἰς τὸν Υἱὸν into the Son

ἔχει has

ζωὴν αἰώνιον· life eternal.​

ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν but, the one being disobedient

τῷ Υἱῷ to the son

οὐκ ὄψεται will not perceive

ζωήν, life,
​

The root of obedience, to be obedient, faith, and to believe is πείθω, meaning to persuade, but to be obedient and to believe have a subtle difference. You can not perceive the bronze serpent (Jn 3:14a) if you refuse to look toward it (Num 21:8-9). Here, being obedient to the Son results in a perception of the Son (Jn 3:14b), where believing into the Son leads to having life in the Son (Jn 3:15). Perceiving that He is the Life, is short of believing into Him so as to have eternal life in Him. Obedience to God's words leads to believing into Christ.

​

 

[gr8grace3]

Not true.

Unbelief and disobedience are different words in the greek text, and are not interchangeable or synonyms for one another. You may be consulting an erroneous translation, or you are conflating the two.

However, we should be obedient to God by believing Him, Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." See Acts 6:7, Rom 1:5, Rom 16:26.

Good post.

It's interesting that the folks who say, " simply believing in Christ doesn't really save." But if you "simply stop believing in Him you will be unsaved."

Or ......faith alone in Christ doesn't really save a person, But losing your faith alone in Christ will unsave you!

What a mess some believers are in.

 

[Gregg T]

Good post.

It's interesting that the folks who say, " simply believing in Christ doesn't really save." But if you "simply stop believing in Him you will be unsaved."

Or ......faith alone in Christ doesn't really save a person, But losing your faith alone in Christ will unsave you!

What a mess some believers are in.

It is interesting that they say that. My understanding is that requires faith in their faith, and trust in their meritoreous works for salvation. It is a messy mess.

 

[Jim Parker]

What a mess some believers are in.

You would know

 

[gr8grace3]

It is interesting that they say that. My understanding is that requires faith in their faith, and trust in their meritoreous works for salvation. It is a messy mess.

I agree.