I just did a search since this thread is regularly in recent posts list. There are lots of discussions about this very topic. What's the point of adding one more if those didn't resolve the debate? http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?search/8486195/&q=trinity&o=date&c[node]=9
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Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith
- Thread starter new covenant preacher
- Start date
Rome imagined itself immortal.
I forget where it was but I've seen this mentioned also in discussions of this nature and on other sites. The observation that asks first, isn't it funny that an empire that crucified God when he was in his 30's created a religion dedicated to that God less than 600 years after putting him to death for saying he was God?
There is nothing that denigrates a discussion of the biblical truths like name calling.
Colossians 2:8-9 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ: 9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
Colossians 2:8-9 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ: 9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
And what are you addressing with this passage?
On what basis can you make the claim that the same empire crucified Jesus and created Christianity?
Read my remarks again please.
That Jesus was God as he says he was. And that when he prayed to the Father, he wasn't praying to separate from himself but was invoking his own power and authority as the Christ of OT prophecy. If the three identities or tri-unity, tri-units in Trinity are co-equal then this verse puts a monkey wrench in that idea.
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. [1 Corinthians 11:3]
Jesus himself who was God with us is saying the head of the anointed, Christos, is God.
Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary
Jesus in the Old Testament
By Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Ph.D.,
President Emeritus
*c in this creed is not a reference to the RCC. It is reference to the universal church which is the whole of believers in Christ.
500 A.D Athinasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
500 A.D Athinasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
I didn't ask what they do, I asked what they are.
Furthermore each one is a witness so they are not one witness, but three witnesses.
What each one does according to
1 John 5:7 is bear witness.
Again I am asking what these three are:
One God?
One Spirit?
One Family?
JLB
Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. Jeremiah 3:8
The Lord did indeed cut off those who fell back into unbelief, a thing that OSAS says is impossible, but is plainly recorded in scripture.
The warning is also to us, who believe, that we can also become disconnected from Him, through unbelief.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23
- if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
JLB
Is it me? Or does refutation of eternal salvation seem to always be interjected into these type threads even when totally off the topic of the thread itself.
1. Because he did not say some will depart from the faith in Christ Jesus.
2. Because of what he did say:
Not
Sure he did, and I posted the scripture with the context to prove it.
13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, [A reference to Christ]
Justified in the Spirit, [A reference to Christ]
Seen by angels, [A reference to Christ]
Preached among the Gentiles, [A reference to Christ]
Believed on in the world, [A reference to Christ]
Received up in glory. [A reference to Christ]
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:13-4:1
If you don't think verse 1, that says, in latter times some will depart from the faith, is a reference to departing from the faith in Christ, then please tell me what depart from the faith is referring to?
Is it depart from the faith in Christ?
Is it depart from the faith in what He created?
There is only two choices, the Creator or creation.
You have never been able to answer this question, but have only avoided it.
JLB
The post you responded to was not addressed to you, but Chessman.
I dropped our conversation a while back since I believe we both agree on this subject.
JLB
chessman
Member
Well it certainly comes up a lot when it's not directly related.
But it's not entirely unrelated since we are Christ's bride. We be family too.
chessman
Member
They were not in Christ Jesus (the Son), nor indwelt, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until redemption. You're mixing up an old covenant with a new one. Not to mention not reading the rest of the story.
I asked if you were of the opinion that Christ is hard hearted (like these men of Israel and Judah) toward His bride so as to reject His bride.
Jeremiah 3:12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not be angry forever.
Naysayers of eternal salvation , life, through Christ have many a verse that refutes their blaspheming the whole reason Jesus died.
One being, I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28
I just would wonder what would compel someone to argue Jesus mission wasn't what He said it was.
And if it is true OSAS as it's called isn't true, where there is that passage in the bible that says a person can be unsaved. Unredeemed. Unbaptized in the holy spirit. And God will again remember the sins He said He forgot and would never hold against them. When he forgave and forgot their sins at salvation and would never remember them again.
In other words, where are the un-verses in scripture?
One being, I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28
I just would wonder what would compel someone to argue Jesus mission wasn't what He said it was.
And if it is true OSAS as it's called isn't true, where there is that passage in the bible that says a person can be unsaved. Unredeemed. Unbaptized in the holy spirit. And God will again remember the sins He said He forgot and would never hold against them. When he forgave and forgot their sins at salvation and would never remember them again.
In other words, where are the un-verses in scripture?
chessman
Member
No. Did he say depart from the faith in Christ??? No.
No. Did he say depart from the faith in what He created??? No.
Is it to depart from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer?
Yes! That's what he said. Long sentence but none-the-less understandable.
Were the Israelites of Jeremiah's day made holy by the Word or were they made unclean by it weekly?
Yes, depart from the faith, is a plain reference to depart from the faith in Christ.
As I have shown from the context.
13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, [A reference to Christ]
Justified in the Spirit, [A reference to Christ]
Seen by angels, [A reference to Christ]
Preached among the Gentiles, [A reference to Christ]
Believed on in the world, [A reference to Christ]
Received up in glory. [A reference to Christ]
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from
, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:13-4:1
If you don't think verse 1, that says, in latter times some will depart from the faith, is a reference to departing from the faith in Christ, then please tell me what depart from the faith is referring to?
Yes depart from the faith in Christ.
If you don't think verse 1, that says, in latter times some will depart from the faith, is a reference to departing from the faith in Christ, then please tell me what depart from the faith is referring to?
Its either depart from the faith in Christ, or depart from the faith in what Christ created.
Faith in Christ or what He created.
The end of OSAS.
JLB
The Lord gave them a certificate of divorce, which you said He would do.
Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. Jeremiah 3:8
The Lord divorce His wife.
Case closed. End of OSAS.
The Lord did indeed cut off those who fell back into unbelief, a thing that OSAS says is impossible, but is plainly recorded in scripture.
The warning is also to us, who believe, that we can also become disconnected from Him, through unbelief.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in Hisgoodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23
- if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
JLB
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2
JLB