Is baptismal regeneration biblical?

[Papa Zoom]

Hi Papa---Lets talk about Mk.16 to the end of the chapter. Lets study to see if its really true. LETS STUDY "MAKE A CASE FROMTHE Bible as a whole not some isolated and questionable verse". WILL YOU DO IT??? Will you defend what you teach? I Pet.3:15.

I still love you,
Billy

As long as Mk 16 8-20 isn't used as a proof text. It's pretty clear it's a later addition. I love you too brother. I just think there's lot of room for differing opinions on some things. Baptism isn't high on my list of essentials of the faith. It's important and should be done, but it has no value in salvation. Jesus ONLY does that. Jesus plus nothing else.

 

[chessman]

That's your interpretation.

Not to mention an assumption as to whether Mark meant water baptism or Spirit baptism in this verse. It doesn't say water baptism:
Whether Mark pinned it in his original or some scribe re-created the end of Mark as best he could, here's what it says

Mark 16:14-16 And later, while they were reclining at table, he appeared to the eleven. And he reprimanded their unbelief and hardness of heart [note this is before they received the Holy Spirit], because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had been raised. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned. ​

Maybe Mark was ending his account of Christ Jesus the same way he began it:

Mark 1:8 I [John the Bapist] baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” ​

 

[billybalke]

As long as Mk 16 8-20 isn't used as a proof text. It's pretty clear it's a later addition. I love you too brother. I just think there's lot of room for differing opinions on some things. Baptism isn't high on my list of essentials of the faith. It's important and should be done, but it has no value in salvation. Jesus ONLY does that. Jesus plus nothing else.

Hi Papa
I assume you accept the invitation to a one on one on baptism. Why do you wish to except Mk.16 from the discussion? There is much evidence that Mk.16 from vs.15 to the end of the chapter is indeed valid.
God bless, Billly

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not to mention an assumption as to whether Mark meant water baptism or Spirit baptism in this verse. It doesn't say water baptism:
Whether Mark pinned it in his original or some scribe re-created the end of Mark as best he could, here's what it says

Mark 16:14-16 And later, while they were reclining at table, he appeared to the eleven. And he reprimanded their unbelief and hardness of heart [note this is before they received the Holy Spirit], because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had been raised. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned. ​

Maybe Mark was ending his account of Christ Jesus the same way he began it:

Mark 1:8 I [John the Bapist] baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” ​

good point!

 

[Papa Zoom]

Hi Papa
I assume you accept the invitation to a one on one on baptism. Why do you wish to except Mk.16 from the discussion? There is much evidence that Mk.16 from vs.15 to the end of the chapter is indeed valid.
God bless, Billly

Because you don't need it if the Bible teaches what you say it does. And it's not in the most reliable manuscripts and most scholars say it's a later addition inserted by a scribe. I am pretty confident it's not part of the original autographs.

 

[billybalke]

Because you don't need it if the Bible teaches what you say it does. And it's not in the most reliable manuscripts and most scholars say it's a later addition inserted by a scribe. I am pretty confident it's not part of the original autographs.

As you wish. I am, however convinced Mk.16 is valid and will be happy to discuss it with anyone.

If you would clarify before we began what you wish to include in our discussion. Doubtless the subject of the baptism of the Holy Spirit needs to be included. If anything else we can consider it.
God bless

 

[Papa Zoom]

As you wish. I am, however convinced Mk.16 is valid and will be happy to discuss it with anyone.

If you would clarify before we began what you wish to include in our discussion. Doubtless the subject of the baptism of the Holy Spirit needs to be included. If anything else we can consider it.
God bless

explain why it's not in the most reliable manuscripts and only showed up later

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not an argument for water baptizem for salvation.

It's a response to your claim that every verse must reference water baptism to be valid.

JLB

If water baptism were necessary for salvation, then EVERY VERSE would have to say so.

 

[FreeGrace]

Again here is my answer.

My position is that we need to obey the Lord, to do what He has instructed us to do, by His Spirit, and leave the circumstances of each person's life up to Him.

Your answer remains rather vague. What has He "instructed us to do"? Specifically?

Why did you get baptised in water?

Public confessing of faith?

Why does He require us to do this?
JLB

Remember to re-ask these 3 questions after answering mine above. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not to mention an assumption as to whether Mark meant water baptism or Spirit baptism in this verse. It doesn't say water baptism:
Whether Mark pinned it in his original or some scribe re-created the end of Mark as best he could, here's what it says

Mark 16:14-16 And later, while they were reclining at table, he appeared to the eleven. And he reprimanded their unbelief and hardness of heart [note this is before they received the Holy Spirit], because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had been raised. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned. ​

Maybe Mark was ending his account of Christ Jesus the same way he began it:

Mark 1:8 I [John the Bapist] baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” ​

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Papa
I assume you accept the invitation to a one on one on baptism. Why do you wish to except Mk.16 from the discussion? There is much evidence that Mk.16 from vs.15 to the end of the chapter is indeed valid.
God bless, Billly

Except there are scholars who are able to date the various manuscripts over the centuries. And NONE of the earliest manuscripts includes v.9-20. That in itself indicates that those verses were added later and NOT part of inspired Scripture.

Regardless, the only baptism that saves is by the Holy Spirit, not water. Peter made that clear in 1 Pet 3:20-21.

 

[WIP]

Except there are scholars who are able to date the various manuscripts over the centuries. And NONE of the earliest manuscripts includes v.9-20. That in itself indicates that those verses were added later and NOT part of inspired Scripture.

Regardless, the only baptism that saves is by the Holy Spirit, not water. Peter made that clear in 1 Pet 3:20-21.

This is scary. What other changes have been made to the Scriptures that most of us would be unaware of, such as me? How can one then trust the Bible as we know it?

 

[billybalke]

explain why it's not in the most reliable manuscripts and only showed up later

Well, lets include it in our discussion on the one on one. Most versions do include it with an asterisk.

Looking forward to our study, Billy

 

[24HourJesus]

The Bible is the standard for truth as God's message to the world. Isn't it curious then that what is in the Bible is questioned?

Is Baptism and rebirth, regeneration through cleansing of our sins in the Bible? Yes. Therefore it is Biblical.
There is a mixed standard and practice concerning scriptural support of opinions in this forum it seems.This should suffice with scripture and how to read them.
"You will find on this page a citation of every Bible passage that mentions “baptism” directly (in English or Greek) and the related passages that refer to baptism without using the word “baptism” itself.

Use your Bible and look up the passages that are quoted. Read the verses before and after so you'll be confident that nothing is taken out of context. Brief comments and questions have been included to help you toward a Scriptural understanding. God bless you as you read the Bible about baptism." My Preaching Pen

 

[Kidron]

This is scary. What other changes have been made to the Scriptures that most of us would be unaware of, such as me? How can one then trust the Bible as we know it?

-
Who owns the copyright to the bible version you usually use?
who is making money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ from the copyright?
there is only one bible (version), that is free to reproduce.
this is something to consider, if you believe that God would want His word to be freely given.
you should find this out.
as there is only one version that is by design, offered as a free copyright to whomever wants to print it, ...unlimited.
And this will never change, as it was authorized to be so.....

something else to consider is..
the only thing worse then a bad bible version is a bible corrector.
pity the fool who stands in a pulpit, on TV, or off, and continually corrects the bible with the "greek text".
this is a fool's errand..
there is no "original greek' text......that's lie #1.
So, when you hear someone saying...."well, in the ORIGINAL GREEK, it says".
No, it does not,.......... as there is no original greek text ....there are only copies of early manuscripts, and copies of greek texts.
There are in fact, 30 greek texts, and then there is Origen's Hexapla, which is Hebrew and 4 Greek.
So, all of this "text talk", is meaningless, chatter........ once you realized that God is well able to preserve His word and His Message.
Its only man who tries to manipulate, bend, twist, mangle, erase, and otherwise change the truth.
But, the light always shines out of darkness, as God will have His word exposed, worldwide.
Especially now.

What i do is use the KJV, mostly.
Its especially able to shine the light on other versions and show you just how much they were redirected and manipulated and CHANGED, doctrinally.
I have my pov about the KIV, which is very simple...
Of the english versions, it has produced more Preachers, Teachers, Evangelists, and Born Again Believers, and REVIVALS, when its used and studied..... then any other "version" if you combined them all together.
When you talk about famous revivals, or notable preachers from the past or present.......when you talk about revelation and light.., or people who have found the LORD by reading a "bible", you are nearly always talking about a KJV.
That is a fact.
The KJV has produced so much more GODLY FRUIT, then all other "versions" combined....so, thats an easy answer.
Common sense.<
Name a famous revival, or famous Minister who has accomplished much, and 9.9 times out of 10, a KJV was the anointed spiritual fulcrum that sent them out to serve the Lord.

God bless,

<K><

 

[24HourJesus]

-
Who owns the copyright to the bible version you usually use?

This will help you. Two different resources below.

What major translations of the Bible are in the Public Domain?

What Bibles on Bible Gateway are in the public domain?
The following Bibles in our library are in the public domain:

• 
  
  
  • American Standard Version (ASV)
  • Darby Translation (DARBY)
  • Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
  • King James Version (KJV)
  • World English Bible (WEB)
  • Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
  • Reina-Valera Antigua (RVA)
  • Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)

If a Bible is in the public domain, its publisher will be listed as "Public Domain" on its version information page, which you can access by clicking here.

 

[JLB]

Hi Papa
I assume you accept the invitation to a one on one on baptism. Why do you wish to except Mk.16 from the discussion? There is much evidence that Mk.16 from vs.15 to the end of the chapter is indeed valid.
God bless, Billly

Of course it's valid.

Look at the signs listed that will follow those who believe then compare with the signs that followed the Apostles.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:16-18

Those who claim this scripture isn't valid, are usually the ones that don't have any of the signs following them.

They just explain it away like the rest of the scriptures that don't line up with their belief system.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This is scary. What other changes have been made to the Scriptures that most of us would be unaware of, such as me? How can one then trust the Bible as we know it?

I think chessman's response in #182 puts it into perspective:

"Not to mention an assumption as to whether Mark meant water baptism or Spirit baptism in this verse. It doesn't say water baptism:
Whether Mark pinned it in his original or some scribe re-created the end of Mark as best he could, here's what it says

Mark 16:14-16 And later, while they were reclining at table, he appeared to the eleven. And he reprimanded their unbelief and hardness of heart [note this is before they received the Holy Spirit], because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had been raised. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

Maybe Mark was ending his account of Christ Jesus the same way he began it:

Mark 1:8 I [John the Bapist] baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

While scholars have found that the earliest manuscripts don't include v.9-20, we can be sure that what was added had to refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

Regarding what is scary, I have a "study Bible" and the end of Mark 16 has a note about v.9-20 not being in the earliest manuscripts.

The same note is found in John 7:53-8:12. I don't really any other passages that weren't found in the earliest manuscripts.

Those who don't have or read "study Bibles" won't be aware of these things.

 

[JLB]

Except there are scholars who are able to date the various manuscripts over the centuries. And NONE of the earliest manuscripts includes v.9-20. That in itself indicates that those verses were added later and NOT part of inspired Scripture.

Regardless, the only baptism that saves is by the Holy Spirit, not water. Peter made that clear in 1 Pet 3:20-21.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waitedin the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

Peter says just the opposite of what you are teaching.

• eight souls, were saved through water

Plainly a reference to water baptism.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your answer remains rather vague. What has He "instructed us to do"? Specifically?

Repent and believe. Get baptized.

19 Go thereforeand make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20

Did Jesus teach His disciples to Baptize?

Here let me help you with this question so you don't keep explaining it away with claims of "that scripture really isn't in the early manuscripts".

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38



JLB