Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[MarkT]

The definition of beginning is not a concern. It's who God is. What I posted points to God doing the creating and then Jesus doing the creating. Both didn't do it for it says in Genesis that God did it and there is only one God. So how can Jesus have done it if God did it? Unless....Jesus is God!

But Jesus said He was sent by the Father from Heaven telling us essentially that the Father is God. How can that be if Jesus is God? Both are God and yet Jesus refers to the Father as having superiority to Him. He even prays to the Father. How can that be unless Jesus and the Father are each unique and both being God how can they be unique?

Such is the mystery of the trinity. All three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are God and yet all three are unique persons within the Godhead. As I've said before, I believe trinity is man's best effort to define the essence of who God is using human understanding and I believe it will all make sense and be clear to us when we see Him face to face. Cool!!

Yeah, but if you exclude people and persecute them and burn them at the stake on account of this doctrine, then what do you think Jesus is going to say when he returns? "Well done, good and faithful servant?" Matthew 25:23? I don't think so.

There's been so much hatred and violence since this 4th century doctrine. Brother against brother, even to this day. And so much self righteousness.

 

[MarkT]

Wouldn't it be fair to say however that Jesus prayed to the Father in his (Jesus') humanity. For example, who died on the Cross? God cannot die and yet Jesus died. If Jesus is God, didn't God die? No, Jesus was fully human and fully God and his human body died. His human body rose from the dead. His human body sits on the right hand of The Father. Is this a fair way to put it in your view?

God was in Jesus and Jesus was in God. Does that make Jesus God? In the same way, we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Does that make us Christ? Paul said, "For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell' Col. 1:19 and "For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Colossians 2:9 He says, 'in him' to say in his body. The fulness of deity dwells bodily in his body.

 

[jaybird]

It's an attribute (a quality if you will) of Deity attribute to Jesus (and other persons, places or things too).

Humanity is an attribute of being human.
Divinity is an attribute of being diety (God).

It's NOT a proof of the Trinty that Jesus was/is divine. Nor does it prohibit the Trinity.

Romans 1:20 For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.​

Now the eternality of the Son, that's a good argument for the 2nd person of the Trinity. Which is why Jesus, John the Baptist, John the apostle and many others claim Jesus is the Son.


Neither. It simple means Jesus has Godly (diety) attributes. Which he does. So do lots of other things, like the ark, the church, the Temple, etc.

we all have a soul, would that not make everyone divine?

Will you answer a few questions?

Psalm 47:2 For Yahweh Most High is awesome, a great king over all the earth.​

Do you consider the Most High to be God?

yes

 

[Runner]

Yeah, but if you exclude people and persecute them and burn them at the stake on account of this doctrine, then what do you think Jesus is going to say when he returns? "Well done, good and faithful servant?" Matthew 25:23? I don't think so.

There's been so much hatred and violence since this 4th century doctrine. Brother against brother, even to this day. And so much self righteousness.

Or conversely, when three believers who led essentially identical Christian lives stand before God and one says "I prayerfully followed Jesus according to my understanding that He is the Second Person of the Trinity" and another says "I prayerfully followed Jesus according to my understanding that God is one but Jesus is the divine Son of God" and another says "I prayerfully followed Jesus with no clear understanding of who He is except that His life, death and reconciliation were sufficient to reconcile me to God and that He is my Savior and Redeemer," does anyone think God is sending the latter two to Hell? As you say, "I don't think so."

On the other hand, I happened to listen this morning to part of The Christian Worldview radio program. The host asked the guest, a senior pastor at an OSAS church, whether he thought the seemingly arcane distinction between the OSAS understanding of justification and the Catholic understanding of justification was critical enough for someone (i.e., a Catholic, not to mention Protestants who hold the same view of justification) to be sent to Hell. "Yes," answered the kindly pastor. So again, two Christians who led essentially identical Christian lives will stand before God and God will welcome one into Heaven and send the other to Hell on the basis of their respective understandings of the doctrine of justification? Welcome to the Good News of the gospel, which has somehow become a lot less good and a lot more confusing than Jesus could possibly (IMO) have anticipated.

 

[chessman]

we all have a soul, would that not make everyone divine?

No. Merely made/created in His image.

Psalm 47:2 For Yahweh Most High is awesome, a great king over all the earth.​

Psalm 95:6-7 Come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Yahweh, our maker. For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. Today if you will hear his voice:​

So, God is "the Most High". Good, I agree.

Is God our maker, Yahweh?

 

[jaybird]

No. Merely made/created in His image.

Psalm 47:2 For Yahweh Most High is awesome, a great king over all the earth.​

Psalm 95:6-7 Come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Yahweh, our maker. For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. Today if you will hear his voice:​

​

so our soul is just an image of the Most High and not an actual part of the Most High? and why would it return back to the Most High where it came from if it wasnt a part of the Most High to begin with?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
i always thought it interesting that, according to my belief, our soul is given by the Most High though His breath, all begins with that life giving breath, as long as we live in this world we have to continuously breathe to sustain that life, when we stop breathing, we are no longer part of this world.

So, God is "the Most High". Good, I agree.

Is God our maker, Yahweh?

thats what i believe.

 

[Randy]

God was in Jesus and Jesus was in God. Does that make Jesus God? In the same way, we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Does that make us Christ? Paul said, "For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell' Col. 1:19 and "For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Colossians 2:9 He says, 'in him' to say in his body. The fulness of deity dwells bodily in his body.

No, however the fullness that was pleased to dwell in Jesus makes Jesus the exact representation of Gods being. GOD
In regard to the Spirit of God John 16:14 NIvHe will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you
The holy Spirit of God even received direction from the will of the Son. FOR the Son has been granted such Authority by the Father. And all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son. JESUS is GOD yet is not for HE is Gods Son.
1 cor 1:24 NIV but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.


That doesn't mean Jesus always was and always was God it makes Jesus the firstborn the image of God and Gods Son.
Its clear to me the Son that was (his spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Matt 10:20 The Spirit of God is the Fathers Spirit
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Jesus=>Isaiah 61:1 NIV the scroll Jesus read from:The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

 

[chessman]

thats what i believe.

So, you believe God is "the Most High" and God is our maker. Good, I agree.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he [God] has spoken to us by a Son, whom he [God] appointed heir of all things, through whom also he [God] made the world, ...​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

 

[jaybird]

So, you believe God is "the Most High" and God is our maker. Good, I agree.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he [God] has spoken to us by a Son, whom he [God] appointed heir of all things, through whom also he [God] made the world, ...​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

i believe the Father created all things. that creating power was in Jesus so one could say it was created through Jesus if they like and i wouldnt think that to be wrong. the source of that creating power IMO is the Father.

so our soul is just an image of the Most High and not an actual part of the Most High? and why would it return back to the Most High where it came from if it wasnt a part of the Most High to begin with?

no response to this one? that mean you dont know?

 

[chessman]

i believe the Father created all things.

I haven't posted any Scripture about the Father (nor did you in support of your belief). Let's read the beginning of Hebrews once more (which doesn't mention the Father) and answer a simple question together:

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, ​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

the source of that creating power IMO is the Father.

The question was whether you believe God made the world by a Son.

no response to this one? that mean you dont know?

It's off topic is the meaning. But since you've been so directly responsive (thank you, it's refreshing) to my two questions up until my third question, I'll answer your two:

so our soul is just an image of the Most High and not an actual part of the Most High?

No. I didn't say our soul was not an actual part of the Most High (God). I said our having a soul does not make "everyone" divine. And it doesn't. Anymore than the Spirit hovering over the waters of the Earth makes the atmosphere divine. But again, it's not the topic of this thread.

why would it return back to the Most High where it came from if it wasnt a part of the Most High to begin with?

It is a part of the Most High (God) and it does return back. Again, off topic though.

Your turn again: Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

 

[jaybird]

I haven't posted any Scripture about the Father (nor did you in support of your belief). Let's read the beginning of Hebrews once more (which doesn't mention the Father) and answer a simple question together:

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, ​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

i believe the Father who is the Most High created all things. the creating power used was also in the Son, i really dont know how else to explain it. does this not make sense to you?

No. I didn't say our soul was not an actual part of the Most High (God). I said our having a soul does not make "everyone" divine. And it doesn't. Anymore than the Spirit hovering over the waters of the Earth makes the atmosphere divine. But again, it's not the topic of this thread.

It is a part of the Most High (God) and it does return back. Again, off topic though.

so part of the Most High is not divine, the part given to us as a soul?

 

[Randy]

i believe the Father created all things. that creating power was in Jesus so one could say it was created through Jesus if they like and i wouldnt think that to be wrong. the source of that creating power IMO is the Father.


no response to this one? that mean you dont know?

The scriptures state that the creation was created through Jesus. It would have been, just as the miracles performed, by Gods Holy Spirit. The Spirit over the waters in the beginning
Nicodemus=“Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
JESUS "wills" and the SPIRIT OF GOD acts as JESUS has been granted such authority. THE FATHER "wills" and HIS VERY Own Spirit acts as its His own Spirit (part of His being) THE SPIRIT OF THE SOVEREIGN LORD -The spirit of God

1 cor 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[chessman]

i believe the Father who is the Most High created all things.

After you answer my question about what Heb 1:1-2 says, maybe you can post what Scripture teaches you to believe that; "the Father who is the Most High created all things". But in the meantime, Heb 1:1-2 doesn't say anything about the Father or a 'creating power'.

the creating power used was also in the Son,

Heb 1:1-2 doesn't speak of "the creating power" or "The Father".

Why not stick to what the Scriptures actually do say and then answer my third question, directly???

i really dont know how else to explain it.

You could directly answer the third of my questions as you did the first two.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

BTW, "He", "Son" and "whom" are not words someone would use to describe a 'creating power'. These are personal words.

does this not make sense to you?

No, Not really, Biblically speaking, because I have not asked you (nor posted) any Scriptures that mention the Father or a 'creating power'. Frankly, you seem to be avoiding providing a direct answer.

so part of the Most High is not divine, the part given to us as a soul?

No. (Direct enough answer???)
I didn't say the Spirit of God (the part of God, the Most High) given to us is not divine. I you have any questions for me, ask. I'll answer them directly.

 

[jaybird]

After you answer my question about what Heb 1:1-2 says, maybe you can post what Scripture teaches you to believe that; "the Father who is the Most High created all things". But in the meantime, Heb 1:1-2 doesn't say anything about the Father or a 'creating power'.


Heb 1:1-2 doesn't speak of "the creating power" or "The Father".

Why not stick to what the Scriptures actually do say and then answer my third question, directly???


You could directly answer the third of my questions as you did the first two.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

BTW, "He", "Son" and "whom" are not words someone would use to describe a 'creating power'. These are personal words.


No, Not really, Biblically speaking, because I have not asked you (nor posted) any Scriptures that mention the Father or a 'creating power'. Frankly, you seem to be avoiding providing a direct answer.

im not sure what your looking for here. i believe what the bible says, it says the worlds were created through the Son. IMO the word "through" means different things to the both of us and that is what i have been trying to explain to you. you seem to think this is the proof that Jesus is a trinity, i just think the creating power of the Most High that was used in creation was in Jesus. thats how i see it. im not going to change the way i read it just so i can make a doctrine work.
the worlds created through Jesus to me would be no different than Jesus doing a miracle, Jesus always said the power was not of Him but of the Father that sent Him. its not that complicated here on my end. what exactly do you think i am not seeing?

No. (Direct enough answer???)
I didn't say the Spirit of God (the part of God, the Most High) given to us is not divine. I you have any questions for me, ask. I'll answer them directly.

i thought you said our soul was just an image of the divine which would make our soul not an actual part of the Father.i dont see how it can be both ways here, either part of us is divine, or part of the Father, that our soul comes from, is not divine.

 

[ezra]

After you answer my question about what Heb 1:1-2 says, maybe you can post what Scripture teaches you to believe that; "the Father who is the Most High created all things". But in the meantime, Heb 1:1-2 doesn't say anything about the Father or a 'creating power'.


Heb 1:1-2 doesn't speak of "the creating power" or "The Father".

Why not stick to what the Scriptures actually do say and then answer my third question, directly???


You could directly answer the third of my questions as you did the first two.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,​

Do you believe God made the world by a Son?

BTW, "He", "Son" and "whom" are not words someone would use to describe a 'creating power'. These are personal words.


No, Not really, Biblically speaking, because I have not asked you (nor posted) any Scriptures that mention the Father or a 'creating power'. Frankly, you seem to be avoiding providing a direct answer.


No. (Direct enough answer???)
I didn't say the Spirit of God (the part of God, the Most High) given to us is not divine. I you have any questions for me, ask. I'll answer them directly.

so are a oneness believer ? God said this is my son God gave his only son the comforter the holy spirit === 3 separate beings BTW I USED SCRIPTURE IN MY LAST POST

 

[chessman]

it says the worlds were created through the Son.

It says the world (singular), not worlds. Can we please both use the Biblical Text and language of the Text???

IMO the word "through" means different things to the both of us

I assure you, the word in this Text means "through" or "by". Different translations pick either. What does it mean to you?

http://biblehub.com/greek/1223.htm

you seem to think this is the proof that Jesus is a trinity

Of course not. Jesus is NOT a trinity. Jesus is the name Gabriel told Mary to give to the virgin born son after His birth.

What I think is God created the world through (or by) a Son. Just as Heb 1:1-2 says.

i just think the creating power of the Most High that was used in creation was in Jesus.

The Text doesn't say anything about 'the creating power of the Most High' or Jesus.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.​

the worlds created through Jesus to me would be no different than Jesus doing a miracle

Do you believe God made the world through His Son, yes or no? Please answer.

what exactly do you think i am not seeing?

I don't know what you're not seeing because you will not answer my third question.

i thought you said our soul was just an image of the divine which would make our soul not an actual part of the Father

Please start a Theology thread about "our soul" if you'd like. I'll participate and answer any/all Biblically based questions relevant questions as they pertain to our souls. But I can assure you now, that the Holy Spirit is divine.

Genesis 1:1-2, 26-27 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth— Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image and according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.” So God created humankind in his image, in the likeness of God he created him, male and female he created them.​

 

[chessman]

and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” who was the voice?

God, the Father, the Majestic Glory.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when a voice such as this was brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,
​

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?

​

 

[ezra]

God, the Father, the Majestic Glory.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when a voice such as this was brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Hebrews 1:1-2 Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,
​

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?

​

i believe he was as the incarnate Christ let us create man are you oneness ?

 

[chessman]

i believe he was as the incarnate Christ

Who?
the Father was the incarnate Christ?
Or
the Son is the incarnate Christ?
Or
The voice from Heaven was the incarnate Christ?

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?

let us create man are you oneness ?

No offense, but I can't decipher your punctuation and grammar to even know what you are trying to say or ask in the above post.

 

[Randy]

so are a oneness believer ? God said this is my son God gave his only son the comforter the holy spirit === 3 separate beings BTW I USED SCRIPTURE IN MY LAST POST

Oneness in how Jesus taught. The Father living in Him doing His work.
JOHN 14:10 NIV
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus has always been the Son. God firstborn. At some point in history before the world began. A beginning but no end.
The NT does not support the Spirit of God as a separate distinct being from the "Father". Rather God states "my spirit" in regard to the Holy Spirit and Jesus does not.

The verse quoted by the author of Matthew (12:18) in regard to Jesus.
Isaiah 42:1 NIV "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. "With light come accountability"-God who in the past left the sins of the nations unpunished has now through the gospel message holds all people accountable. The nations no longer walk in darkness and ignorance with many false Gods as Jesus is a light to the nations.
Fathers promise=>as Peter quoted as found in the book of acts chapter 2.
Joel 2:28 NIV "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
The SPIRIT Jesus sent He received from the Father. ref acts 2.
How God writes this new covenant on the hearts of the people as God had foretold through His prophet Jeremiah
Jeremiah 31:31-33 NKJV
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The SPIRIT was sent in Jesus's name and by Jesus's will into the heart of a believer. AND that Spirit in a believer represents the will or presence of JESUS. Hence the "Spirit of Christ".