What Gifts from God are revocable?

[chessman]

Ephesians 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

I personally find it beneficial to study the calling of which I am a prisoner. That way, I'm better able to walk in a manner worthy of it. Especially since it's irrevocable. Might as well get use to it.

 

[JLB]

I didn't say faith was any less of a gift than the substance of salvation.

Faith is the gift being referred to in Ephesians 2:8.

Period.

I understand from your post that you disagree.

Yes or No.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I didn't say faith was any less of a gift than the substance of salvation. You're not reading/understanding the NT Greek Scholar's point nor mine.
If you'd actually consider the slightest possibility that you just might (just maybe) be wrong on your grammatical claim (and you are as shown previously) about verse 8, then you could see his conclusion from the Greek grammar is obviously what Paul means because of the larger context of the letter (and other NT Texts) and for goodness sake, the very next verse. Not just because of the gender matching required by NT Greek grammar.

It is the gift of God— 9 not of works, in order that no one may boast.
​

Or simply read Paul's reason for saying what he just said in 8-9:

10 For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared-beforehand in order that we might walk in them.11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh— the ones being called “the uncircumcised” by the one being called “the circumcised” (one done-by-human-hands in the flesh)— 12 that you were at that time without Christ, having been excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without-God in the world.​

What's the "gift" is this whole New Covenant (salvation by grace through faith, without need of our works because we have His workmanship) as opposed to the old covenant (done by-human hands in the flesh like circumcision and sacrificial offerings, etc. over and over and over (sin, work to cleanse yourself, sin work to cleanse yourself, repeat, ...).

But then again, some people simply like to boast about their workmanship versus His workmanship. Old habits die hard.
I say out with the old, in with the new gift. I appreciate my gift of God, His workmanship.

 

[JLB]

Here are three:

Esther 8:8 “Now you write to the Jews as you see fit, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's signet ring; for a decree which is written in the name of the king and sealed with the king's signet ring may not be revoked.”

Daniel 6:8 “Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.”

Daniel 6:12 Then they approached and spoke before the king about the king's injunction, “Did you not sign an injunction that any man who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, is to be cast into the lions' den?” The king replied, “The statement is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.”

Thanks. Any from the New Testament?

What version of the Bible is that?

 

[ezra]

I personally find it beneficial to study the calling of which I am a prisoner. That way, I'm better able to walk in a manner worthy of it. Especially since it's irrevocable. Might as well get use to it.

what is i should get use to?

 

[JLB]

Taste means eat???
Do any translations use eat?

Again, illegitimate totality transfer of all possible meanings of a word rather than the one intended is fallacious. By the way, you referenced the possibilities of a word from a lexicon. Which you earlier called 'lexicon gymnastics'. Quite hypocritical.

No lexicon gymnastics just understanding the meaning of the word, which you totally distorted to prop up your theory.

The context gives us what the author is teaching.

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

This refers to born again believers who have partaken of the Holy Spirit.


How do you depart or fall away from something you never experienced.



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Abrahamic Covenant starts at (Gen. 12: 1-3) God, says ("I Will") Not, "if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant" as in (Exodus 19:5),Israel was foreordained through Abraham. Israel does not exist because of Abraham's faith, but because of Gods promise.

In post # 75, Exodus 9:5 should be (Exodus 19:5)

 

[JLB]

Here are three:

Esther 8:8 “Now you write to the Jews as you see fit, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's signet ring; for a decree which is written in the name of the king and sealed with the king's signet ring may not be revoked.”

Daniel 6:8 “Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.”

Daniel 6:12 Then they approached and spoke before the king about the king's injunction, “Did you not sign an injunction that any man who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, is to be cast into the lions' den?” The king replied, “The statement is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.”

8 Now, O king, establish the decree and sign the writing, so that it cannot be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which does not alter.” Daniel 6:8


12 And they went before the king, and spoke concerning the king’s decree: “Have you not signed a decree that every man who petitions any god or man within thirty days, except you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?”The king answered and said, “The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which does not alter.” Daniel 6:12


8 You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.” Esther 8:8


Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse. Esther 8:8 KJV


Esther 8:8
Revoke - Strong's H7725 - shuwb

to return, turn back

1. (Qal)
   
   1. to turn back, return
      
      1. to turn back
         
         
      2. to return, come or go back
         
         
      3. to return unto, go back, come back
         
         
      4. of dying
         
         
      5. of human relations (fig)
         
         
      6. of spiritual relations (fig)
         
         1. to turn back (from God), apostatise
            
            
         2. to turn away (of God)
            
            
         3. to turn back (to God), repent
            
            
         4. turn back (from evil)
            
      7. of inanimate things
         
         
      8. in repetition
         
2. (Polel)
   
   1. to bring back
      
      
   2. to restore, refresh, repair (fig)
      
      
   3. to lead away (enticingly)
      
      
   4. to show turning, apostatise
      
3. (Pual) restored (participle)
   
   
4. (Hiphil) to cause to return, bring back
   
   1. to bring back, allow to return, put back, draw back, give back, restore, relinquish, give in payment
      
      
   2. to bring back, refresh, restore
      
      
   3. to bring back, report to, answer
      
      
   4. to bring back, make requital, pay (as recompense)
      
      
   5. to turn back or backward, repel, defeat, repulse, hinder, reject, refuse
      
      
   6. to turn away (face), turn toward
      
      
   7. to turn against
      
      
   8. to bring back to mind
      
      
   9. to show a turning away
      
      
   10. to reverse, revoke
       
5. (Hophal) to be returned, be restored, be brought back
   
   
6. (Pulal) brought back
   

JLB

 

[JLB]

The Abrahamic Covenant starts at (Gen. 12: 1-3) God, says ("I Will") Not, "if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant" as in (Exodus 19:5),Israel was foreordained through Abraham. Israel does not exist because of Abraham's faith, but because of Gods promise.

The Abrahamic Covenant began in Genesis 17.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” 9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. Genesis 17:1-11

• The name change is part of the Covenant, which took place in Genesis 17.
• There was no mention of Covenant, nor was circumcision performed in Genesis 12.

God made him a promise based on a condition in Genesis 12.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


The Condition which called for obedience:

Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you.


The Promise:

I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”



JLB

 

[chessman]

You didn't answer:

Do any translations use eat?

Let me help you out. Answer is no!

No lexicon gymnastics just understanding the meaning of the word, which you totally distorted to prop up your theory.

Umm, I'm not the one that changed the word's meaning from what every translation that I know of uses "tasted" into what you think it means "eats". From the most literal to the least literal (most opinionated, none use what you think it means):

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb6:4-6&version=DLNT;LEB;NASB;ESV;NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb6:4-6&version=KJV;NKJV;NET;HCSB;MSG

Hebrews 6:4-8The Message (MSG)

4-8 Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit, once they’ve personally experienced the sheer goodness of God’s Word and the powers breaking in on us—if then they turn their backs on it, washing their hands of the whole thing, well, they can’t start over as if nothing happened. That’s impossible. Why, they’ve re-crucified Jesus! They’ve repudiated him in public! Parched ground that soaks up the rain and then produces an abundance of carrots and corn for its gardener gets God’s “Well done!” But if it produces weeds and thistles, it’s more likely to get cussed out. Fields like that are burned, not harvested.
​

The Text says they tasted the Word, not consumed it. Jesus says you must consume it. Case closed.

Regardless of what your (or my or Peterson's) opinion is, the Text is about what's impossible, not what's possible (unless of course you distort the meaning of "impossible" into possible).

Do you think it's possible or impossible to re-crucify Jesus?

 

[chessman]

This refers to born again believers who have partaken of the Holy Spirit.

Why insert "born again believers" into the Text (unless of course your opinion is that Hebrews should have said that but didn't)???

But yes, the Text says they have partaken of the Holy Spirit. Best eat the whole enchilada thought, if you actually want to be "born again" from above. You're either born again or you're not. No such thing as partly 'born again' (which again isn't in the context of the Text). It would be like being partly pregnant, which is impossible.

 

[JLB]

Let me help you out. Answer is no!

The context gives us what the author is teaching.

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

That would mean they did indeed repent and turn to God and were born again, and have the Holy Spirit.



4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

This refers to born again believers who have partaken of the Holy Spirit.


How do you depart or fall away from something you never experienced.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why insert "born again believers" into the Text (unless of course your opinion is that Hebrews should have said that but didn't)???

But yes, the Text says they have partaken of the Holy Spirit. Best eat the whole enchilada thought, if you actually want to be "born again" from above. You're either born again or you're not. No such thing as partly 'born again' (which again isn't in the context of the Text). It would be like being partly pregnant, which is impossible.

It is, you just are ignoring what is being taught.

• Can a person be born again and receive the Holy Spirit, without repentance?

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

That would mean they did indeed repent and turn to God and were born again, and have the Holy Spirit.



4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

This refers to born again believers who have partaken of the Holy Spirit.


How do you depart or fall away from something you never experienced.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You didn't answer:

Let me help you out. Answer is no!


Umm, I'm not the one that changed the word's meaning from what every translation that I know of uses "tasted" into what you think it means "eats". From the most literal to the least literal (most opinionated, none use what you think it means):

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb6:4-6&version=DLNT;LEB;NASB;ESV;NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb6:4-6&version=KJV;NKJV;NET;HCSB;MSG

Hebrews 6:4-8The Message (MSG)

4-8 Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit, once they’ve personally experienced the sheer goodness of God’s Word and the powers breaking in on us—if then they turn their backs on it, washing their hands of the whole thing, well, they can’t start over as if nothing happened. That’s impossible. Why, they’ve re-crucified Jesus! They’ve repudiated him in public! Parched ground that soaks up the rain and then produces an abundance of carrots and corn for its gardener gets God’s “Well done!” But if it produces weeds and thistles, it’s more likely to get cussed out. Fields like that are burned, not harvested.
​

The Text says they tasted the Word, not consumed it. Jesus says you must consume it. Case closed.

Regardless of what your (or my or Peterson's) opinion is, the Text is about what's impossible, not what's possible (unless of course you distort the meaning of "impossible" into possible).

Do you think it's possible or impossible to re-crucify Jesus?

Stop posting more commentary and answer my question which you are ignoring.

• How do you depart or fall away from something you never experienced.

 

[FreeGrace]

From His discussion on pages 333-335

Parsing at:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/1.htm

Thanks much!!

 

[FreeGrace]

So because scripture doesn't say "life is a gift" then it isn't?

I take this as post #73 was ignored. I thoroughly explained WHY life cannot be considered a gift.

No no no...It is just...a given that life is a gift. Anyone, everyone should be able to comprehend this.

Post #73 explains WHY it cannot be considred a gift.

You got it Brother:
Psalm 71:6
6 Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother's womb.
My praise is continually of you.../

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”.../

Galatians 1:15
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born and who called me by his grace,.../

Is that specific enough for you?

I had asked what kind of conversation did you have with the Lord before you were born. Don't you remember? Seems you're aware of having one. What did you say?

How could He know us before we were born...unless we were there talking with Him?

We don't have to "be there" in order for God to know us before we were born. I believe the doctrine of omniscience. Maybe you don't. I don't know.

Our memory of this is obviously being restrained from us here on Earth. Eh?

Well, that's an easy "out" for not having to explain your pre-birth conversations.

that we existed somewhere else before being born on this planet is exactly what I meant.

Unbelievable, for sure. The Bible says nothing about such a thing.

And I already told you that we obviously have had our memory restrained from remembering that what we may have said to Him before we were born.

Is this just something made up from an opinion, or was it learned from a source? The Bible says nothing about this.

Personally I suspect that we even chose and/or agreed to being born in the family and circumstance that we were born into...but that is a personal conjecture that I do not offer as dogma.

Wow. Imaginations running wild, it seems.

No rocket science there. Lol.

For sure. But certainly a whole lot of imagination and opinion. None of which is supported by Scripture.

 

[JLB]

I take this as post #73 was ignored. I thoroughly explained WHY life cannot be considered a gift.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


Do we earn our "life"?


Case closed.




JLB

 

[chessman]

Stop posting more commentary and answer my question which you are ignoring.

• How do you depart or fall away from something you never experienced.

I never said they didn't depart or fall away from something they never experienced.

I said they didn't eat the word, they tasted it. Which isn't commentary, it's simply the fact from the Text.

And I said the Text doesn't say they were 'born again believers', which again isn't commentary but simple fact from the Text.

This refers to born again believers who have partaken of the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate your opinion. Unfortunately for your case, the Text doesn't say they were born again believers or that they eat the good word of God. You insert that opinion into this Text rather than form your opinion from what the Text says.

You didn't answer:

Do you think it's possible or impossible to re-crucify Jesus?

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this very legitimate question:
"No, but so what? If someone is giving you a hard time, is that a gift to you?"

I think this is where most of us differ with your doctrine.

Was a survey taken? Really? What I noticed is that my question was sidestepped altogether.

The fact of giving someone something does NOT mean it is a gift.

Various illnesses are caused by transfer of bacteria or virus. Which of this "most of us" group would consider that a gift??

We are in a covenant relationship with Christ, through faith in Him.

Which has zero to do with the subject at hand.

We are joined to Him as a man and woman are joined through covenant relationship.

Ditto here.

Your whole theory is based on the fact that it's impossible to become divorced, or become disconnected from Christ, to whom we are joined.

No, I got it straight from Scripture. I actually believe everything that Jesus said. To a group of Pharisees who were trying to trap Him, He made this comment in Mark 10:
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

The point being, in God's economy, there is NO divorce, which differs greatly from your theories and opinions.

When God created the man and woman, their relationship was PERMANENT in God's eyes. Just the same for the parent-child relationship, which is also PERMANENT.

Both of these examples ilustrate the difference and significance of relationship vs fellowship.

5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

This is illustrated in many ways in scripture by the Lord Himself, using the natural things of this earth, earthly things, to reveal a spiritual or heavenly reality.

OK, Scripture has been quoted. Nice. So, what does it mean to you? Explain how it supports your notion that a sealed believer can be unsealed for any reason. That is the issue.

As long as we are joined to the Lord, we are joined to the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

At this point, there has been a complete FAILURE to show that any believer for any reason can or has been un-joined from Christ.

And Eph 1:13-14 refutes such a notion. If there is disagreement, please quote the verses and exegete them to demonstrate that they do not teach the guaranteed sealing for the day of redemption isn't really guaranteed for the day of redemption.

But I don't hold my breath, because I've asked this before, a number of times, and I've never been given any kind of explanation of how a guaranteed inheritance for the day of redemption doesn't really mean it's guaranteed, and can be lost.

If we become disconnected from Him, then we no longer are joined to the life of His Spirit; The Spirit of eternal life.

I believe that the sealing with the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession, as Eph 1:13,14 says. So I must reject your opinions, theories, and notions.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

I see. So then, please explain why the Bible says that everyone will go to hell in Mark 9:49.
" Everyone will be salted with fire." Since it seems to be your view that any mention of "fire" or "burning" refers to hell itself.

You seem to dismiss this an an unimportant "agricultural metaphor", when Jesus is teaching us a life or death principle.

I've dismissed nothing. And everything Jesus said is highly important, but they don't teach what you've opined.

Just as a branch is dependent upon the Vine that it is connected to, we also are dependent on Christ to provide us eternal life, that is only found in Him.

Of course. And Jesus was clear about those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish. John 10:28

Do you believe this?

Apart from, and disconnected from Him, we do not have eternal life.

Since John 15 doesn't help or support your notions, where does the Bible teach that any believer, sealed with the Holy Spirit, can lost his inheritance, since Eph 1:14 says the indwelling Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption?

This connection to Him comes from believing.

That is correct. And in Eph 1:13, we note that the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit from "having believed", which is aorist tense, which totally annihilates your notion of having to continually believe in order to continually be saved.

I have asked many times for you to provide the scripture that teaches us, a person who believes for a while, then does not believe any longer, still has eternal life.

And I have happily provided the very verse that teaches this; John 10:28. But it seems there is just no interest in what Jesus taught in that verse.

No one who is separated or cut off from Christ has eternal life in and of themselves.

In fact, no one can be. Eph 1:13,14 eliminates such a notion.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

What this verse clearly teaches is that one who has believed CAN cease to believe, which eliminates the Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Not all saints persevere. Or endure.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

What do they "fall away" from? They fall away from their faith. Not salvation, as so many seem to assume.

Where is the scripture that shows us, those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

And...again, John 10:28. All recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Period. I believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry brother, but all the lexicon gymnastics in the world won't change faith to something that is earned or worked for.

There were no gymnastics here. Just solid Greek grammar. I'm always sad when professing believers discount grammar just because it refutes their notions.