What Gifts from God are revocable?

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I take this as post #73 was ignored. I thoroughly explained WHY life cannot be considered a gift."

I gave you scripture which shows that the Lord forms our spirit within us, even in our mothers womb, which is why we are considered alive, or have life.

Irrelevant to "gifts".

Other wise we would be dead in our mothers womb and no fetus can grow while it is dead.

Also irrelevant.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

I thought the subject was life, not death!!??

This is done before we are even born and have no ability to earn our life.

Until one is actually born, there is NOTHING to earn. How can anyone earn something when they don't exist yet?

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
JLB

Yes, God does form the spirit of man. How does that in any way relate to life being a gift.

This penchant for quoting verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand is noted.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is my question that you have ignored now for years.
Where is the scripture that shows us, those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

I'm always happy to provide the answer. They have eternal life because it is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, and because God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. Simple enough.

Your whole theory is based on the fact that it's impossible to become divorced, or become disconnected from Christ, to whom we are joined.

Please provide any verse that teaches that the Bride of Christ has been, or can be, divorced from the Bridegroom.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Sure. Rom 6:23 is about one of God's gifts, eternal life. Rom 11:29 is about all of God's gifts, which are irrevocable."

Nothing here about eternal life being irrevocable?

Sure is.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

I note that Paul mentioned the "giftS of God". Plural. Was it just some coincidence that He specifically mentioned 3 of God's gifts within his epistle to the Romans before he penned 11:29? Of course not.

The context refers to unbelieving Jews who are enemies of the Gospel.

Doesn't change anything about the specific gifts Paul had described before penning 11:29.

Is it your claim that enemies of the Gospel have eternal life?

My claim is exactly what Jesus claimed: that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, from John 10:28.

That means that how a recipient lives their life has NO EFFECT on their security.

It does, however, have a HUGE effect on their life on earth. Heb 12:11 teaches that God's discipline is painful.

Paul described the progression of God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30 - weakness, sickness, and physical death. And, all of it will be painful, not pleasant.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Sure. Rom 6:23 is about one of God's gifts, eternal life. Rom 11:29 is about all of God's gifts, which are irrevocable."

And I replied with this -

Nothing here about eternal life being irrevocable?

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

The context refers to unbelieving Jews who are enemies of the Gospel.


Is it your claim that enemies of the Gospel have eternal life?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

im that enemies of the Gospel have eternal life?
JLB

I've shown what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; those He has given eternal life.

You're going to have to specifically define what is meant by "enemies of the Gospel".

 

[JLB]

I'm always happy to provide the answer. They have eternal life because it is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, and because God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. Simple enough.

Again you have not answered the question I asked.

Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life.

The promise is for those who believe.

Those who do not believe any longer, do not have any promise except eternal damnation.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8


Please answer the question as this could end the controversy about this doctrine.


Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?


JLB

 

[ezra]

Absolutely!!

Seems the OSNAS group only sees conditional security when the verses they use to support loss of salvation is about fellowship, which is about our walk with the Lord. That group seems oblivious to the fact that one must be in fellowship in order to even walk the walk.

i find it a waste of time arguing osas vs you can walk away from it be lost again . both sides have valid points our salvation is kept by the power of God and no man can pluck us out of his hands . on the other hand you have those who profess salvation .but simply never attend Church other than Easter maybe Christmas and are living in willful sin . never showing any repentance at all. while we are the judge of salvation . we are to judge /discern first we have to clean our own house .before trying to clean others, paul wrote in Galatians if bro be over taken in fault we who are spiritual restore in meekness and love . back to my point the non osas look at that as backsliden . Grace was never meant to be a reason we can sin and still be saved . Grace is there to help us back up when we do get down. ... if we would focus on our walk we wouldn't have to worry one way or the other

 

[FreeGrace]

Again you have not answered the question I asked.

I did. Of course.

Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life.

The promise is for those who believe.

OK, this is what Scripture teaches, for all to believe.

Jesus taught that whoever believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life.
John 3:
15 that everyone who believes may HAVE eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but HAVE eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes HAS eternal life.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.

Then, Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life (that would be recipients, by the FACT that He gives eternal life to them) shall never perish.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, regardless of what happens after one has believed, they shall never perish, according to Jesus. That ANSWERS your question.

Those who do not believe any longer, do not have any promise except eternal damnation.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

Where does this indicate one who already HAS believed and therefore HAS eternal life? It doesn't. This verse doesn't support your theory.

Please answer the question as this could end the controversy about this doctrine.

There is no controversy. Jesus was very plain about recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish. No conditions, no requirements other than receiving eternal life.

On that basis, of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

Clearly, John 10:28 shown NO CONDITIONS OR REQUIREMENTS for keeping eternal life.

Where is Scripture that shows that eternal life can be lost? All I've seen so far are verses that MUST BE assumed to insinuate that.

But, if there were any verses that did actually say that eternal life could be revoked, removed, taken away, lost, etc, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true.

And, I cannot believe that what He said about recipients in John 10:28 cannot be true.

 

[FreeGrace]

i find it a waste of time arguing osas vs you can walk away from it be lost again .

I have not found any such Scripture that says such a thing.

otoh, I have found Scripture where Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28), and He gave no conditions or requirements to recipients in order not to perish.

Just the simple reception of eternal life guarantees that the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

So said Jesus.

both sides have valid points our salvation is kept by the power of God and no man can pluck us out of his hands . on the other hand you have those who profess salvation

When Jesus said "no one can pluck them from His hand", the "no one" means no person. No entity, which would include even angels.

And that certainly includes the recipient themselves. Even they cannot remove themselves from His hand.

Clear.as.day.

 

[JLB]

I did. Of course.

You did not answer the question. Of course not.

Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

Jesus taught that whoever believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life.

This scripture pertains to those who BELIEVE.

• Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

If a person believed yesterday, but today they do not believe, then they have returned to their former state of unbelieving.

• Yesterday - Believed; believing yesterday
• Today - Do not believe; Today unbelieving

• Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

JLB

 

[ezra]

I have not found any such Scripture that says such a thing.

otoh, I have found Scripture where Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28), and He gave no conditions or requirements to recipients in order not to perish.

Just the simple reception of eternal life guarantees that the recipient of eternal life shall never perish.

So said Jesus.


When Jesus said "no one can pluck them from His hand", the "no one" means no person. No entity, which would include even angels.

And that certainly includes the recipient themselves. Even they cannot remove themselves from His hand.

Clear.as.day.

yup and clearly you want to keep the argument going over eternal security sigh **** my dead horse needs to move i think i will go out and beat him tillhe moves.. my mule is looking at the new gate trying to figure out where it comes from....

 

[JLB]

I've shown what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; those He has given eternal life.

You're going to have to specifically define what is meant by "enemies of the Gospel".

Here is who Jesus said will receive eternal life:

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29



Here is who Paul said will receive eternal life:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


Nobody gets a pass on the Day of Judgement, as we all will stand before Him on that Day.


He has given us His divine nature.
He has given us His Spirit.
He has given us the holy scriptures.

He has given us His grace and power, and all things that pertain to life and godliness, so that we would be a holy people that are set apart and practice righteousness by walking according to His Spirit within.


Those who live there lives according to the Spirit, will reap everlasting life.

Those who have been given a new nature, that is empowered by His Spirit, but stubbornly walk according to the flesh and practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God, but eternal condemnation.

The writer of the book of Hebrews says it this way -

• but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8


Paul -

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

7 If you think you can fool God, you are only fooling yourselves. You will harvest what you plant. 8 If you live to satisfy your sinful self, the harvest you will get from that will be eternal death. But if you live to please the Spirit, your harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life.
Galatians 6:7-8 ERV

again


For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

13 If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life. Romans 8:13 ERV



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You did not answer the question. Of course not.

Of course I did. How about this: go back to post #168 and explain ANYTHING of disagreement. That's how to have a discussion.

Just making a false claim is useless.

Where is the scripture that shows us those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?

It's in post #168. Take my points there one by one to show me what there is to disagree with.

This scripture pertains to those who BELIEVE.

Yes, all the verses I provided in my answer in post #168 are about those who believe. They HAVE eternal life. They are RECIPIENTS of eternal life, given by Jesus. And Jesus said those He gives (recipients) eternal life shall never perish.

That IS the answer to your question.

But apparently you're not liking the answer much. That is something to take up with your Lord.

If a person believed yesterday, but today they do not believe, then they have returned to their former state of unbelieving.

While that is absolutely true, so what?

What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life? They shall never perish. John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is who Jesus said will receive eternal life:

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

So? He also said this:
John 3:
15 that everyone who believes may HAVE eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but HAVE eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes HAS eternal life.

Obviously, "done good" in John 5:28 refers to believing in Him. Not anything about lifestyle.

Here is who Paul said will receive eternal life:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

It's always interesting to see one cherry-picking verses to support their claims, but avoiding other verses that flat out refutes their claims.

We KNOW that Rom 2:6-8 CANNOT be fulfilled by ANY HUMAN BEING because of what else Paul said in that same epistle:
Rom 3:
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Then, Paul clarified who is justified, meaning they have eternal life:
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Nobody gets a pass on the Day of Judgement, as we all will stand before Him on that Day.

Correct.

He has given us His divine nature.
He has given us His Spirit.

And this Spirit will be with us FOREVER, so said Jesus in John 14:16.

Those who live there lives according to the Spirit, will reap everlasting life.

Why aren't your claims accompanied with Scripture that says what is being claimed? Your statement here is just another conflation of several verses.

Those who have been given a new nature, that is empowered by His Spirit, but stubbornly walk according to the flesh and practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God, but eternal condemnation.

It's sad that people misunderstand what "not inheriting" the kingdom means.

The writer of the book of Hebrews says it this way -

• but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

I have asked previously before, but have not seen any answer, so I'll ask again.

Please explain why everyone will go to hell, according to Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire.

I mean, what else can that verse mean, since it seems your view is that any mention of "fire" or "burning" refers to hell itself.

 

[JLB]

So? He also said this:
John 3:
15 that everyone who believes may HAVE eternal life in him.”

Yes Glory to God.

Another great promise for those who believe.

Unfortunately for your doctrine this doesn't deal with those who do not believe any longer.

 

[JLB]

Please explain why everyone will go to hell, according to Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire.

Go ahead and post the scripture and its context so we can all examine it.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks. Any from the New Testament?

What version of the Bible is that?

NASB

While not exactly 'revoked', I found a "take back" in Matthew 10:13 NASB
See some of the other verses that use Strong's G1994 (ἐπιστρέφω epistréphō).
I thought Luke 22:32 was an interesting verse.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Promise:
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Because God ordained it...He chose Abraham

God is not man, nor does He think like a man, God had called out Israel at the foundation of the world. He used Abraham to fulfill that promise. Israel did not come about by Abraham's faith. God used Abraham to fulfill His promise. Abraham was obedient, and it was accounted to him as righteousness for his faith. But it was not his faith that brought forth his son Isaac. God was going to do it anyways. The Covenant was formed in (Gen. 15:1-18). God foretells him what will happen in this promise. (Acts 7:1-8) Not what He will do if Abraham obeys Him. (It is going to happen). Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness, because he believed God,(Gen.15:6) even thou it was a weak faith. (Gen. 17:16-19) Abraham's relationship with God was a friendship, they were friends. God is creature, He creates everything....even the ages.
Admonitions given later (Gen. 17:1, 9-14, and 26:2-5) relate to the behavior of individuals under the covenant', That is, there obedience and consequent blessing WITH God.

 

[JLB]

Because God ordained it...He chose Abraham

God is not man, nor does He think like a man, God had called out Israel at the foundation of the world. He used Abraham to fulfill that promise. Israel did not come about by Abraham's faith. God used Abraham to fulfill His promise. Abraham was obedient, and it was accounted to him as righteousness for his faith. But it was not his faith that brought forth his son Isaac. God was going to do it anyways. The Covenant was formed in (Gen. 15:1-18). God foretells him what will happen in this promise. (Acts 7:1-8) Not what He will do if Abraham obeys Him. (It is going to happen). Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness, because he believed God,(Gen.15:6) even thou it was a weak faith. (Gen. 17:16-19) Abraham's relationship with God was a friendship, they were friends. God is creature, He creates everything....even the ages.
Admonitions given later (Gen. 17:1, 9-14, and 26:2-5) relate to the behavior of individuals under the covenant', That is, there obedience and consequent blessing WITH God.

All based on the condition of obedience.

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JLB

 

[atpollard]

This thread is not eternal security But it is his truth ..........John 10:28.
So James was incorrect? God does deviate and shifts from the Gifts He Gives?

I went back and reread the OP because I thought that I must have missed something. No, I don't think that I did.

To the first point, eternal security, I believe John 6:33-40 NIV.

However, your comment about James confused me.
You quoted James 1:17

KJV "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

NASB "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."

Here is the commentary on James 1:17 by A.R. Fausset:

17. gift. . . gift--not the same words in Greek: the first, the act of giving, or the gift in its initiatory stage; the second, the thing given, the boon, when perfected. As the "good gift" stands in contrast to "sin" in its initiatory stage ( Jam 1:15 ), so the "perfect boon" is in contrast to "sin when it is finished," bringing forth death ( 2Pe 1:3 ).
from above--(Compare Jam 3:15 ).
Father of lights--Creator of the lights in heaven (compare Job 38:28[ALFORD]; Gen 4:20, 21 Hbr 12:9 ). This accords with the reference to the changes in the light of the heavenly bodies alluded to in the end of the verse. Also, Father of the spiritual lights in the kingdom of grace and glory [BENGEL]. These were typified by the supernatural lights on the breastplate of the high priest, the Urim. As "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" ( 1Jo 1:5 ), He cannot in any way be the Author of sin ( Jam 1:13 ), which is darkness ( Jhn 3:19 ).
no variableness. . . shadow of turning-- ( Mal 3:6 ). None of the alternations of light and shadow which the physical "lights" undergo, and which even the spiritual lights are liable to, as compared with God. "Shadow of turning," literally, the dark "shadow-mark" cast from one of the heavenly bodies, arising from its "turning" or revolution, for example, when the moon is eclipsed by the shadow of the earth, and the sun by the body of the moon. BENGEL makes a climax, "no variation--not even the shadow of a turning"; the former denoting a change in the understanding; the latter, in the will.


Fausset merely confirmed my own reading of the verse and what it was saying. It makes no claim that God can or cannot, will or will not, does or does not bestow and withdraw a gift or blessing. All of James 1 is making the point about where good and evil in man comes from. Our temptation does not come from God, our temptation comes from our sin (James 1:13-16). In contrast to that, every good thing and every perfect gift is from God (James 1:17). It is about the source, not the surety of the gift.

The second part of James 1:17 speaks to God's unchanging nature. God has never been the source of temptation, God is not currently the source of temptation, God will never be the source of temptation, God has always been the source of every good and perfect gift, God is presently the source of every good and perfect gift, God will always be the source of every good and perfect gift. God's nature and character does not change.

However, that does not mean that God cannot choose to bestow a gift for a season, and then withdraw that gift. You have been given multiple examples where God has done exactly that, most often in direct response to human actions (typically disobedience). Just a few quick samples:

• God gave Adam the garden of Eden and the Tree of Life (Gen 2:15-17), then expelled him from the garden (Gen 3:22-24).
• God gave Samson strength (Judges 14:5-6) and removed it (Judges 16:18-20).
• God placed his anointing on King Saul (1 Samuel 11:6) then removed it (1 Samuel 16:14) and later sent an evil spirit to torment him (1 Samuel 18:10).
• While slightly more conjectural, in the New Testament, many scholars believe that Saul (the future Apostle) probably had a wife. Scripture is silent on what happened to her if she did exist. Paul, the Christian Apostle, clearly had the gift of celibacy. Since both a wife and celibacy are gifts from God (and mutually exclusive), then God appears to have given Saul one gift for one period in his life and a VERY different gift for a very different period in his life. There is no "God changing his mind", but there is the unfolding of the plan of God with all things in their due season.

Proof that God has the right to do this innately within his Holy character can be found in Romans:

Romans 9:14-18 NASB
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.