Infant Baptism.

[Creative]

I believe in infant baptism. Since another person has to perform it, I don't think belief is necessary for either the person receiving the baptism nor the person performing it. There may be an issue of repentance on the person receiving it, but I have not reached a conclusion on that yet.

 

[chessman]

John was filled with the Spirit when he was out of(ek/ex) the womb.

Luke 1:15 is a prophecy describing John being filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he must never drink wine or beer, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while he is still in his mother’s womb. ​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=LEB

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will never drink wine and fermented-drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still of his mother’s womb,​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=DLNT

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=NASB

for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=ESV

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=NKJV

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 1:15&version=KJV​

They all make the same point in English "from the" original Greek.

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe this verse applies to the dispute over infant baptism:

2Ti 2:23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

 

[daninthelionsden]

My belief/opinion/understanding of baptism is this. Baptism was a Temple ritual practiced by adults in the Temple. John the Baptist took this ritual out of the Temple to the people. Did he also open baptism up to infants? I doubt it. John the Baptist was a Jew and Jews believe children are innocent before God until they reach the age of accountability. Did Jews believe this always? I can't remember if my studies showed innocence of children was believed back at the time of the Temple administration of the Kingdom or not. We must remember that when Christ was baptized, He was a Jew practicing a Jewish ritual. I believe the Church ( Body of Christ) inherited the practice of baptism and I believe God honors baptism for believers.
I do not believe our baptism requires a Christian to administer another's baptism. Baptism is between God and the baptized, not between the baptizer and the baptized. A 3rd party does not qualify an act of obedience between God and the baptized. Just like a 3rd party doesn't qualify Communion. You have no idea the character/belief of a baptizer nor one administering Communion. That person could be an unbelieving pedophile for all you know. Does that disqualify all those baptisms? All those Communions? No. CHRIST is or High Priest. Our baptism is between our individual selves and God.
A story in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine tells of a young woman who was saved in the mountains of Afghanistan. One day she felt an urgent need to be baptized. There was no one around and the only water that was available was a single plastic bottle of water. She baptized herself. Do you think God didn't honor that? I hope not. Don't ever let anyone place themselves or another between you and God.
My advice to any Christian wondering about baptism is this.....if the Lord impresses upon your heart to be baptized, then by all means , DO IT. Don't let anyone else qualify it or delay it. My wife baptized me in our swimming pool in our backyard. I felt an overpowering need to be baptized as so did. I was baptized as an infant. I don't believe in infant baptism.

 

[Creative]

Maybe this verse applies to the dispute over infant baptism:

2Ti 2:23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

Except this discussion and the opinions expressed involve the issue of salvation.

This is not the thread about putting ketchup on hot dogs.

 

[Jim Parker]

Baptism was a Temple ritual practiced by adults in the Temple.

nope
No baptism in the temple. Sacrifices took place in the temple.

Did he also open baptism up to infants? I doubt it.

Your doubts are not evidence for or against infant baptism neither are they definitive for Christian praxis.

John the Baptist was a Jew and Jews believe children are innocent before God until they reach the age of accountability

But males were (still are) circumcised on the 8th day after birth as a sign of membership in God's covenant community.

A story in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine tells of a young woman who was saved in the mountains of Afghanistan. One day she felt an urgent need to be baptized. There was no one around and the only water that was available was a single plastic bottle of water. She baptized herself. Do you think God didn't honor that?

I expect that God did honor that.

I was baptized as an infant. I don't believe in infant baptism.

That's OK. Whatever is not done in faith is sin. (Rom 14:23)
But the Church has been baptizing infants since at least the 2nd century and probably from the beginning since, according to the reports in the book of acts, entire households were being baptized. Households includes children and infants. There is no comment about anyone having to be old enough to understand baptism. (Act 16:15; 34; 18:8)
I'll just follow the teaching of the Church which is, "the pillar and ground of the truth." (1tim 3:15)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Except this discussion and the opinions expressed involve the issue of salvation.
This is not the thread about putting ketchup on hot dogs.

OK
Then why not follow the teaching of the Church since it's beginning instead of whatever any Tom, Dick, or Harriet (all devoid of a sound theological education) says.

When people who are untrained in theology and the practices of the Church since the beginning start expounding their unlearned (ignorant) opinions, it seems to me that it is precisely a "foolish and ignorant dispute" in which no one will change his mind and which will only generate dissent and division.

Of course, as a devout hypocrite, I have put my 2 cents in above at post #66 thus adding to the abundance of "foolishness and ignorance." (Will I EVER learn!!??? )

iakov the fool

And, please, just don't put mayonnaise on that hot dog.

 

[Creative]

OK
Then why not follow the teaching of the Church since it's beginning instead of whatever any Tom, Dick, or Harriet (all devoid of a sound theological education) says.

When people who are untrained in theology and the practices of the Church since the beginning start expounding their unlearned (ignorant) opinions, it seems to me that it is precisely a "foolish and ignorant dispute" in which no one will change his mind and which will only generate dissent and division.

Of course, as a devout hypocrite, I have put my 2 cents in above at post #66 thus adding to the abundance of "foolishness and ignorance." (Will I EVER learn!!??? )

iakov the fool

And, please, just don't put mayonnaise on that hot dog.

I don't think anyone here needs to be trained in theology to have an opinion on the topic. I have googled the trained theologians on infant baptism and their arguments are exactly the same as the ones people are arguing here.

Whether anyone changes their minds or not, it is still an important topic worth putting a lot of thought into.

 

[daninthelionsden]

OK
Then why not follow the teaching of the Church since it's beginning instead of whatever any Tom, Dick, or Harriet (all devoid of a sound theological education) says.

When people who are untrained in theology and the practices of the Church since the beginning start expounding their unlearned (ignorant) opinions, it seems to me that it is precisely a "foolish and ignorant dispute" in which no one will change his mind and which will only generate dissent and division.

Of course, as a devout hypocrite, I have put my 2 cents in above at post #66 thus adding to the abundance of "foolishness and ignorance." (Will I EVER learn!!??? )

iakov the fool

And, please, just don't put mayonnaise on that hot dog.

Theologians universally teach we are higher/better than John the Baptist. They are universally wrong. Theologians each shed some light. That is helpful, but you have to think for yourself as well. Theologians are no holier than anyone else.

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't think anyone here needs to be trained in theology to have an opinion on the topic.

Of course not!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And everyone gets a nose too!

I have googled the trained theologians on infant baptism and their arguments are exactly the same as the ones people are arguing here.

I doubt most people would "google" how to do an appendectomy and then try it on their mothers.
Yet people are quite willing to "google" the "electronic bathroom wall" for advice on how to secure eternal life.
amazing!

Whether anyone changes their minds or not, it is still an important topic worth putting a lot of thought into.

Except for when people ask specific questions and are legitimately looking for answers, my experience in forums is that, rather than serious thought, the normal responses are along the lines of: "You're wrong!" No! YOU'RE wrong!"
(Of course that's very frustrating for me since I'M always right! [yeah right])
Oh well.


iakov the fool

 

[Creative]

Trained or not, unfortunately the most important verses on the topic are ambiguous enough to be open to serious discussion on their meanings.

Also, this is not science, removing a body part takes a trained physician. I think the statement on belief for this forum is that scripture is open to personal interpretation. Am I wrong about that ?

 

[Jim Parker]

Theologians universally teach we are higher/better than John the Baptist.

Where did you get the notion about what "Theologians universally teach"?
Every last one of them?
You've checked all of them?
I've never heard a single one say that.

They are universally wrong.

Is that your expert opinion?

Theologians each shed some light.

One would hope that people who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Word of God would, from time to time, be able to "shed a little light."

That is helpful, but you have to think for yourself as well.

It is my experience that, more and more, people are not taught HOW to think. (An abject failure of our education system) ACademis seems to be more interested in teaching students WHAT to think and then asking them to express how the "feel" about the ideology to which they have been subjected.
Therefore, "thinking for yourself", for many, is often an exercise in futility.

Theologians are no holier than anyone else.

Exactly.
The topic has nothing to do with holiness.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Also, this is not science, removing a body part takes a trained physician.

But leading God's people eternal life can just be "googled" by any grammar school dropout?
Amazing!

I think the statement on belief for this forum is that scripture is open to personal interpretation.

"Personal interpretation" is the foremost basis of heresy.

iakov the fool

 

[daninthelionsden]

Where did you get the notion about what "Theologians universally teach"?
Every last one of them?
You've checked all of them?
I've never heard a single one say that.

Is that your expert opinion?

One would hope that people who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Word of God would, from time to time, be able to "shed a little light."

It is my experience that, more and more, people are not taught HOW to think. (An abject failure of our education system) ACademis seems to be more interested in teaching students WHAT to think and then asking them to express how the "feel" about the ideology to which they have been subjected.
Therefore, "thinking for yourself", for many, is often an exercise in futility.

Exactly.
The topic has nothing to do with holiness.

iakov the fool

All you have to do is google Mat. 11:11 and see what all of them say.....

 

[Jim Parker]

All you have to do is google Mat. 11:11 and see what all of them say.....

"ALL" of them?
Including John Chrysostom? Basil the Great? Leo the Great? Gregory Nazianzus? Athanasius?
That's a decent place to start (and good for you for going there) but it is not a theological education.
Jus sayin

 

[daninthelionsden]

"ALL" of them?
Including John Chrysostom? Basil the Great? Leo the Great? Gregory Nazianzus? Athanasius?
That's a decent place to start (and good for you for going there) but it is not a theological education.
Jus sayin

Look for yourself THEN tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Jim Parker]

Look for yourself THEN tell me I'm wrong.

You stated that ALL theologians (ever last one that ever lived) said the same thing.
You said you knew this because you googled it.
That is absurd.

 

[daninthelionsden]

You stated that ALL theologians (ever last one that ever lived) said the same thing.
You said you knew this because you googled it.
That is absurd.

And your refusal to even look into the matter and yet keep arguing is just as absurd....so I guess we are at an impasse and so I agree we disagree and I'll leave it at that. To continue would be even more absurd.

 

[billybalke]

And your refusal to even look into the matter and yet keep arguing is just as absurd....so I guess we are at an impasse and so I agree we disagree and I'll leave it at that. To continue would be even more absurd.

Folks its not what theologians or non theologians, you, me or anyone else says. Its ''WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE--", Rom.4:3

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW OR CALVINIST
ROM.16:16
BILLY

 

[Jim Parker]

your refusal to even look into the matter

You said: "Theologians universally teach we are higher/better than John the Baptist. They are universally wrong."
Prove that every last theologian who ever was taught or now teaches that "we are higher/better than John the Baptist."
Then prove that every last theologian who ever was taught or now teaches is wrong and YOU are right.
Go ahead.
I'll wait.