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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The soul of man
- Thread starter freewill
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jaybird
Member
Matthew 7:7-12
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
What?
Peter got praise in:
Matthew 16:17 KJV
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Peter was rebuked in:
Matthew 16:22 KJV
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
This is God’s love in action. Hugs and Swats. You know where you are in dealing with God. He chastens whom he loves.
Redneck
eddif
jaybird
Member
i guess Plato got a snake.
There is definitely biblical emphasis on where we come from:
- What happened in the beginning of the universe? God created the first man, Adam, and the first woman He created from Adam's side. Therefore Adam and Eve were out original parents - way back when. The genealogy of all human beings can be traced back to these original parents.
- What did Adam say about Eve in Gen 3:20 (NIV)? 'Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living'.
- There you have it. There was no pre-existence of the soul. There is a natural genealogy through procreation of Eve being the mother of all living persons, so that makes Adam the father of all living persons.
- This is confirmed in verses such as 1 Cor 15:22 (NIV), 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive'. Adam is the progenitor of living and dying for all people, but it also takes male and female to tango to produce children.
- Biblically, there is no support for the pre-existence of the human soul.
I suggest you do some more study on dichotomy vs trichotomy concerning soul/spirit, human beings have a bipartite or tripartite inner being.
See: 'Trichotomy vs. dichotomy of man--which view is correct?' (GotQuestions?Org)
No! I've reached conclusions regarding trichotomy vs dichotomy, so I'm not in a room, not knowing why I went there.
Oz
chessman
Member
1 Cor 15:52-53 is not an ‘endowment’ to all ‘mankind’ but rather is part of a victory promise to all of Paul’s brothers/sisters in Christ:
But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For it is necessary for this perishable body to put on incorruptibility, and this mortal body to put on immortality. But whenever this perishable body puts on incorruptibility and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! So then, my dear brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:50-58 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-58&version=LEB“We will all be changed” = “my dear brothers, we will all be changed” not ‘Christ has endowed all mankind with immortality’.
There is Victory in Jesus.
There is no victory without Jesus.
It’s an old, old story of a Savior coming from glory and giving His life on Calvary to save someone like me, repenting of my sin and winning victory. [I feel like there’s a worship song somewher in the Victory in Jesus that brothers/sisters in Christ can sing but that those within mankind who are outside of Christ, who refuse to repent and despise Him cannot sing.
“Still further did He also make it manifest, that we ought, after our calling, to be also adorned with works of righteousness, so that the Spirit of God may rest upon us; for this is the wedding garment, of which also the apostle speaks, "Not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up by immortality." But those who have indeed been called to God's supper, yet have not received the Holy Spirit, because of their wicked conduct "shall be," He declares, "cast into outer darkness." He thus clearly shows that the very same King who gathered from all quarters the faithful to the marriage of His Son, and who grants them the incorruptible banquet, [also] orders that man to be cast into outer darkness who has not on a wedding garment, that is, one who despises it.”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
Within ‘all mankind’ there are:http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
1. those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality
2. those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness
Those described in 1, get eternal life.
Those described in 2, do not.
John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Two births.
eddif
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Two births.
eddif
jaybird
Member
the breath that goes back to the Most High? does it go back to being non existent?
Jesus existed before Abraham
the Most High knew Jeremiah before he was born
i was trying to be funny on that, you dont have to be hateful about it.
Jim Parker
Member
Who you ask and where you seek and which door you knock makes a big difference.
Jim Parker
Member
Neither Genesis 2:7 nor Ecclesiastes 12:7 say that the soul comes from and returns to God.
I was hoping you had a good reference for that.
Oh well....
iakov the fool
jaybird
Member
thats as good as one can get in the scriptures, anything more you would have to do what Plato did and Jesus taught but then people will mock and ridicule. many chose to stay dumbed down and ignorant.
Jim Parker
Member
Plato and Jesus taught very different theologies.
There is nothing of Platonism in Christianity. (In spite of what Augustine and the scholastics taught.)
jaybird
Member
Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
wonder what secrets Jesus is referring to.
your opinion has been noted
Jim Parker
Member
What teachings of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, et. al. are the same as what Jesus taught?
jaybird
Member
where does Jesus say they are all wrong?
the Essenes wrote a lot on souls and pre existence. Jesus did refute some of their teachings but said nothing against this belief. many of these ideas were all over in Judea being as they had been under greek rule. i dont see Jesus, the 12 or Paul teaching against it nor making a big issue of it.
Jim Parker
Member
Answering a question with another question is dodging the question.
Jesus' teaching had nothing in common with the teaching of the Plato, Aristotle, neo-paltonists, etc.
If I am wrong then show me what one of the Greek philosophers taught that was exactly the same as Jesus taught.
The question was: What teachings of Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, et. al. are the same as what Jesus taught?
What the Essenes may or may not have said is an entirely different subject.
What Jesus did NOT say is an argument from silence and proves absolutely nothing.
Jaybird,
I believe we're a trichotomy. I was taught this in the Nazarene church I attended.
I can go into more detail, but not right now... It can and should be studied as OzSpen suggested.
Those who believe in the dichotomy of the person, believe that we have our physical body and that the spirit is contained within the soul
Those that believe in the trichotomy of the person separate man into 3 parts:
Physical
Soul
Spirit
This is what makes the most sense to me. The soul is what makes us who we are. Even animals have souls since each dog is different from any other dog. The soul is our personality, conscience, etc. All that is not physical. It IS contained within our body, of course...
Our spirit is our connection to God. Animals do not have a spirit since they cannot know God. Our spirit affects our soul. For instance, if we believe and follow God, that will affect our conscience which is in the soul.
When we die both the soul and spirit go to be with God.
Our physical body is glorified at the end of time.
Here is a diagram, I'm sure you've seen it many times.
jaybird
Member
not when it proves a point and we both know Jesus didnt say they were all wrong. and how could Plato teach what Jesus said when he lived and died before Jesus.
Jesus saying He existed before Abraham sounds a lot like what Plato taught
its the only messianic theology writing we have from that time, they called themselves a new covenant community. i think its very relevant.
its the exact same argument your making, "where did Jesus teach Plato", if its not there then He never said it, we know Jesus had inner teachings, He says so, and we know He taught many more things, the bible says that to, yet when one seeks out these teachings people like you attack them for seeking.
the truth of it is the bible (official canon) gives no explanation.
Why don't you deal with the biblical evidence I provided that demonstrated that a human being/soul DOES NOT have a pre-existence?
Please use ALL of the Scripture to reach your conclusions and not cherry-pick verses.
Acts 7:59 (NIV) states: 'While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' So where did Stephen's inner being go at death? Back to the Lord Jesus' presence because he was a believer.
We are dealing here with life-after-death issues for believer and non-believer. I've written elsewhere about where believers go at death:
Do Christians go to heaven when they die?
What about non-believers at death? See: Where will unbelievers go at death?
Ecclesiastes 12:7, death and the spirit
Some who support annihilation for the unbeliever at death want to translate ‘spirit’ as ‘breath’. None of these translations (quoted above) uses “breath” instead of “spirit”. Why? Because that is not what the word means in context. See the support for “spirit” translated as “breath” by the Seventh-Day Adventists HERE.
How do we know that “spirit” in Eccl. 12:7 does not mean “breath”?
If we look at the context in Eccl. 12:5, it states what is happening at death, “Man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets” (ESV). What happens at death as breath ceases is not what is stated in Eccl. 12. It is referring to human beings going to their “eternal home”, which means at death, “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (ESV). How do we know?
Eccl. 3:21 asks, “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” (KJV). The implication is that the spirit of beasts perishes with the body (goeth downward to the earth), but the human spirit survives death (as in Eccl. 12:5-7). It is inaccurate contextually to say that “the breath of man goeth upward”. Why? Because at death, the breath ceases but the person lives on.
Psalm 104:29 also emphasises that the breath ceases at death: “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust” (KJV). Cf. Gen. 3:19; Job 10:9; Ps. 90:3; 103:14; and Eccl. 3:20.
Oz
Oz,Why don't you deal with the biblical evidence I provided that demonstrated that a human being/soul DOES NOT have a pre-existence?
Please use ALL of the Scripture to reach your conclusions and not cherry-pick verses.
Acts 7:59 (NIV) states: 'While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' So where did Stephen's inner being go at death? Back to the Lord Jesus' presence because he was a believer.
We are dealing here with life-after-death issues for believer and non-believer. I've written elsewhere about where believers go at death:
Do Christians go to heaven when they die?
What about non-believers at death? See: Where will unbelievers go at death?
Ecclesiastes 12:7, death and the spirit
Here we have an interesting OT verse that speaks of what happens at death: Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV), “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it”. Other translations are: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (KJV); “and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (NIV).
Some who support annihilation for the unbeliever at death want to translate ‘spirit’ as ‘breath’. None of these translations (quoted above) uses “breath” instead of “spirit”. Why? Because that is not what the word means in context. See the support for “spirit” translated as “breath” by the Seventh-Day Adventists HERE.
How do we know that “spirit” in Eccl. 12:7 does not mean “breath”?
If we look at the context in Eccl. 12:5, it states what is happening at death, “Man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets” (ESV). What happens at death as breath ceases is not what is stated in Eccl. 12. It is referring to human beings going to their “eternal home”, which means at death, “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (ESV). How do we know?
Eccl. 3:21 asks, “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” (KJV). The implication is that the spirit of beasts perishes with the body (goeth downward to the earth), but the human spirit survives death (as in Eccl. 12:5-7). It is inaccurate contextually to say that “the breath of man goeth upward”. Why? Because at death, the breath ceases but the person lives on.
Psalm 104:29 also emphasises that the breath ceases at death: “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust” (KJV). Cf. Gen. 3:19; Job 10:9; Ps. 90:3; 103:14; and Eccl. 3:20.
Oz
In the Conclusion of your article "Do Christians Go to Heaven When They Die?"
you stated:
Whether in Old or New Testaments, the Bible is clear on where believers go at death. They go into the presence of the Lord God that is called variously paradise, heaven, the Father’s house and Abraham’s bosom.
They go into the presence of the Lord, agreed...
But WHERE?
Paradise and Hades is the same, as I understand it.
Abraham's Bossom is also Paradise or Hades (based on Luke 16:19-31)
The Father's House and Heaven, instead, is what I understand to be HEAVEN.
All these places are in the presence of God, but not all are in "heaven"...our final resting place.
Also, I've always understood myself, that when we die we go directly to heaven because Jesus tore the veil to the Holy of Holies and opened the gates of heaven which were closed before, thus the necessity for faithful believers to go to Abraham's Bosson aka Hades aka Paradise, where they await the end of time and THEN they go to heaven.
Is it stated in scripture that Jesus DID open the gates of heaven upon His death?
I can't find this...