The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[n2thelight]

The apostle Paul summed up the whole matter of people’s reward for sin when he wrote:

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Could anything be clearer than this passage? The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation, notice:

MATTHEW 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destructionand many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

GALATIANS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

PSALM 145:20 (NKJV)
The LORD preserves all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy.

PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

NOTE: See the commentary on this proverb in the appendix Old Testament Hell Verses if you don’t believe it is applicable to us today in an absolute sense.

All these passages clearly describe the two separate destinies of the righteous and the unrighteous. The “righteous” are people who are in right-standing with God because they’ve accepted his sacrifice for their sins*, the “unrighteous” are those who are not in-right-standing with their Creator because they’ve rejected his offer of salvation. The former will inherit eternal life, whereas the latter will reap the wages of sin and be destroyed.

*NOTE: Please don’t misinterpret this description of people as “righteous.” Our own righteousness apart from Christ is as “filthy rags” in God’s holy sight (Isaiah 64:6). To become in right-standing with God we must let go of our fleshly ‘righteousness’ in acceptance of God’s “gift of righteousness,” which comes through spiritual regeneration through Christ(see Romans 5:17 and 2 Corinthians 5:21). This is positionalrighteousness; practical righteous naturally occurs as the believer learns to put off the “old self” — the flesh — and live according to their new nature, which is “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:22-24).

Yet those who adhere to the eternal torture doctrine mysteriously don’t accept this blatantly clear biblical truth. They don’t believe that the two polar opposites are life and death; they believe the two polar opposites are eternal life in heavenly bliss and eternal life in burning torment. Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? They may not phrase it in such an open manner, but this is what they actually believe if we’re honest about it.

 

[n2thelight]

The offer to receive eternal life as opposed to suffering everlasting destruction is what the gospel of Christ is all about. We see this plainly expressed in this passage:

2 TIMOTHY 1:10
But [God’s grace] has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Notice that life and immortality are only available through the gospel. What exactly is “the gospel?” The gospel literally means “good news.” Its main message is summed up in the famous passage John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Note, once again, what is clearly being contrasted in both of these passages: In John 3:16 perishis contrasted with the gift of eternal life; in 2 Timothy 1:10death is contrasted with both immortality and life, which are said to be made available through the gospel. If the eternal torture doctrine were true, these verses would be contrasting eternal life and eternal life being tortured, or immortality and immortality in fiery torment. I realize this sounds absurd, but the Bible would certainly speak in such honest, blatant terms if this teaching were true. Do you seriously think that God would be misleading or ambiguous about such an important issue in his Holy Word?


The reason the Bible doesn’t speak in such ludicrous terms is because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. The above passage, 2 Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and therefore immortality was not available to us — life was not available to us. This is because we are all sinners (see Romans 3:23 and Ecclesiastes 7:20) and consequently all deserve death, “for the wages of sin is death.” God cannot overlook this because he is perfectly just. One person cannot pay the penalty for another because both are sinful and deserve death. The only way we can escape this imminent death penalty is if a sinless person, who does not deserve death, dies in our place.

So what did God do? Because he so loved the world and didn’t want anyone to perish, he gave his Son as a sin sacrifice in order that we may have the gift of eternal life. The difference between wages and a gift is that wages are earned while a gift is free. Jesus paid the death penalty that we’ve all earned so that we can have the free gift of eternal life. The LORD did this so that we could fellowship with him forever instead of reaping the wages of sin, which is death.

This fact that God Himself wants to have a relationship with us explains why the gospel is also referred to as “the message of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:17-21). ‘Reconciliation’ means to turn from enmity to friendship. The gospel is good news indeed because, not only does it grant eternal life to those who accept it, but, more importantly, it enables us to have a relationship with the Creator of the universe!

Notice what John the Baptist declared would happen to those who reject the gospel:

JOHN 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

The passage could not be plainer: those who reject the Son “will not see life.” God’s word is absolute, and this is an absolute statement: Those who reject Jesus Christ will not see any life at all. This includes even a sadistic life in roasting agony for all eternity. Such people will be justly-but-mercifully put to death, absolute death, for this is the wages of their actions. But our loving Creator doesn’t want anyone to perish like this; he has provided a way to eternal life through his Son, Jesus Christ.

Do you see the simple, beautiful, clear message of the gospel here? God is just trying to save his beloved fallen creation, humanity, from the wages of sin. Ezekiel 18:32 reveals the heart of God well on this matter: “ ‘For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign LORD, ‘Repent and live!’ ”

Great study at the below link

http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/hell

 

[FreeGrace]

For real though,we can't comprehend what forever is,but one thing I know for sure is our Father wouldn't let His children suffer anywhere forever much less being tortured at the same time.

I ask those with kids,could you?I know I couldn't.....

God's children won't be. It's those who aren't His children, by way of rejecting the free gift of eternal life, who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15

 

[n2thelight]

God's children won't be. It's those who aren't His children, by way of rejecting the free gift of eternal life, who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15

We are all God's children ,as for eternity in hell,the soul that sins shall die,not tortured in hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

We are all God's children ,as for eternity in hell,the soul that sins shall die,not tortured in hell.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

These are the children I was referring to. Those who are children by faith in Christ.

And 'the soul that sins that shall' is in the context of physical death, or more specifically, capital punishment.

The lake of fire, which is an eternal existence, is also called the "second death". This means eternal separation from God. That's where all non-believers will spend eternity. Rev 20:15

 

[chessman]

The lake of fire, which is an eternal existence, is also called the "second death". This means eternal separation from God.

Is the underlined a typo and you meant eternal destruction instead of eternal existence?

who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

 

[Justicewolf]

Greek #5020 ταρταρόω tartaróō, tar-tar-o'-o; from Τάρταρος Tártaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:—cast down to hell.

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1. the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews

2. to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

2 Peter 2:4

Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"The lake of fire, which is an eternal existence, is also called the "second death". This means eternal separation from God."

Is the underlined a typo and you meant eternal destruction instead of eternal existence?

No typo. The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence. Those who will spend eternity there will be spiritually dead, but very much aware of their surroundings.

I do not believe in the annihilation of the soul. We've already established that the Greek word for "destruction" is used both literally and figuratively.

The lake of fire is where lost souls go for eternity.

If the soul is annihilated, the very concept of eternity loses all meaning.

 

[chessman]

The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence.

Chapter and verse(s), please.

We've already established that the Greek word for "destruction" is used both literally and figuratively.

Every word CAN be used figuratively. Including “word” or “Jesus” or “Hell”, etc. You’ve not established that “destruction” is being used figuratively.

The lake of fire is where lost souls go for eternity.

No doubt.

If the soul is annihilated, the very concept of eternity loses all meaning.

So God (regardless of whether literal destruction of the lost’s bodies and souls occurs in Hell or not) is not eternal???

 

[Justicewolf]

Chapter and verse(s), please.

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[chessman]

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

If it’s “just as” S&G’s punishment, it’s literal destruction, right? Do they still exist?

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Right. Which is their eternal punishment as contrasted to life:

And these will go to eternal punishment, but the righteous ones to eternal life”.​

Matthew 25:46 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:46&version=DLNT

 

[Justicewolf]

If it’s “just as” S&G’s punishment, it’s literal destruction, right? Do they still exist?


Right. Which is their eternal punishment as contrasted to life:

And these will go to eternal punishment, but the righteous ones to eternal life”.​

Matthew 25:46 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:46&version=DLNT

I answered the question you put to FreeGrace.

↑FreeGrace said:
The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence.
You posted: Chapter and verse(s), please.

 

[Free]

For real though,we can't comprehend what forever is,but one thing I know for sure is our Father wouldn't let His children suffer anywhere forever much less being tortured at the same time.

I ask those with kids,could you?I know I couldn't.....

As has been clearly pointed out to you, God's children are only believers. How do you "know for sure" what God would and wouldn't do in this regard?

 

[n2thelight]

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

These are the children I was referring to. Those who are children by faith in Christ.

And 'the soul that sins that shall' is in the context of physical death, or more specifically, capital punishment.

The lake of fire, which is an eternal existence, is also called the "second death". This means eternal separation from God. That's where all non-believers will spend eternity. Rev 20:15

Where do you get the 2nd death is separation?
Can you please explain to me the purpose of torture in hell?

When God created you,you became God's child

 

[n2thelight]

As has been clearly pointed out to you, God's children are only believers. How do you "know for sure" what God would and wouldn't do in this regard?

That's not true!!! Did not God create us all,which made us at that time His children,even satan was His child

Job 38:1 "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,"



Remember that Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, and Ezekiel witnessed God coming down in a whirlwind. This "whirlwind" is the vehicle that God uses to transport his throne when He has a job to do here on earth. Elihu told us that when a tempest of a storm comes, that God spoke from it.



Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"



God's first answer was in the form of a question. Remember from verse three of chapter thirty six, Elihu said, "I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and I will ascribe righteousness to the Maker. For truly my words shall not be false: He that is perfect in knowledge is with thee." Elihu was presenting himself as a spokesman for God, and I feel that God was even personally addressing Elihu here. God is asking Job; who is this man who is standing before you, claiming to have all knowledge, and knowing Me?


This should be a warning to us today that there will be many that present themselves to be speaking for God, and all the time their words are empty. We had better be careful what man or woman we study under. If they are speaking on behalf of God and His Word, there had better be documentation direct from the Word of God. Listening to teachers like Elihu is the sure way to be led astray.


So God's first answer to Job is; What are you listening to these men for? It is addressed to Job but aimed at Elihu, as well as the other three.



Job 38:3 "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me."


This is God's advise to Job. Stand up like a man, for I am going to tell you a few things, and I will demand an answer of you. In these early days men wore long robes, and when they were about to do some serious work and walking, they drew the back side of their robe between and through their legs, and tied it to their belt in front. This is to "gird up now thy loins like a man", for there is going to be some serious discussion and God wanted Job alert.



Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."



God is asking Job, but directing the question to Elihu as well as Job; where were you when I laid the foundation of this earth age. God is letting Elihu know that nothing that he has said came from Me, so don't put words in My mouth.



Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"


Who has determined the measurement of the sun, moon, and earth, and placed the line or signs of the constellations around the earth?



Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"



God is asking, what holds this earth exactly where it is, do you know Job? do you know Elihu? Stop and think for a moment of all the laws of God, those dealing with gravity, with magnetism, with heat and pressures and all the other things that go to make up the atmosphere of the earth that we live on, and rely on for our life, as we live here in these flesh bodies. This sets our Heavenly Father in a class all by Himself. Man is nothing compared to the Creator.



Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"



Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.


Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"


Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"


Even though others were hearing this speaking of God, Job would probably be the only one that would understand what God was saying. This verse says a lot more than what is translated into the English, for most ears are not able to hear with understanding.

 

[n2thelight]

I said:
"The lake of fire, which is an eternal existence, is also called the "second death". This means eternal separation from God."

No typo. The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence. Those who will spend eternity there will be spiritually dead, but very much aware of their surroundings.

I do not believe in the annihilation of the soul. We've already established that the Greek word for "destruction" is used both literally and figuratively.

The lake of fire is where lost souls go for eternity.

If the soul is annihilated, the very concept of eternity loses all meaning.

Why,whats the purpose of eternal torture?The Word teaches no such thing.

 

[n2thelight]

I can't even imagine a dog tortured forever,and are we not more important than a dog?Imo eternal torture is a warped thinking...

 

[chessman]

I answered the question you put to FreeGrace.

↑FreeGrace said:
The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence.
You posted: Chapter and verse(s), please.

No passage of the Bible says that the lost eternally exist in the Lake of Fire. What the Bible does say, is that it’s a place prepared for a different kind of creatures (the Devil and his demons, not humans).

Are you going to answer my question about the passage you posted in reply that supposedly describes the Lake of Fire as eternal existence of the lost?

If it’s “just as” S&G’s punishment, it’s literal destruction, right? Do they still exist?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence."

Chapter and verse(s), please.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matt 18:8 - If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matt 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Jude 7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

These 6 verses all are about the second death, or the lake of fire.

5 of these verses specifically note that individuals will be thrown INTO it. This proves that the second death is a place of existence, eternal existence.

Every word CAN be used figuratively. Including “word” or “Jesus” or “Hell”, etc. You’ve not established that “destruction” is being used figuratively.

Nor have you that the word must be used literally.

I said this:
"The lake of fire is where lost souls go for eternity."

No doubt.

Which is why I don't agree that any soul will ever cease to exist. The soul will exist in the lake of fire for eternity.

I said:
"If the soul is annihilated, the very concept of eternity loses all meaning."

So God (regardless of whether literal destruction of the lost’s bodies and souls occurs in Hell or not) is not eternal???

I really don't understand how this question relates in any way to my comment.

Of course God IS eternal. 1 John 5:20 - We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

My point is this: if someone ceases to exist, the concept of time no longer has any meaning for what doesn't exist.

There is no existence for what doesn't exist.

You've agreed that lost souls will "go for eternity" to the lake of fire by your "no doubt" comment. But that agreement conflicts with the claim that souls will cease to exist.

 

[FreeGrace]

Justicewolf said: ↑
Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

If it’s “just as” S&G’s punishment, it’s literal destruction, right? Do they still exist?

Yes. the residents of S&G exist in hell, awaiting the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20 and being cast into the lake of fire. For eternity.