Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,048.00
Goal
$1,038.00
I’ve ignored none of the Scriptures either of you have posted, nor your comments about them. The fact is, none of what you posted say what The Beasts in Revelation are (men or demon spirits) whereas the verses I have posted numerous times do say exactly what they represent (demons).


By making the comment above, it is you who seem to be ignoring what Rev 16 says directly about The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet in preference to your assumptions (they are men), all the while accusing me of ‘ignoring Scripture’. There’s zero assumption needed in the following verses:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

And you didn’t answer my previous question:

⬆️ Yes or no, do The Beasts spoken of in John’s visions do signs?
I know exactly what Rev 16 says as this seems to be your main scripture of reference and I think I was pretty clear in post #725 of who the Dragon, the beast and the false prophet are, but can not get into a deeper detail description of them as it goes against the ToS. These lying signs and wonders in the sky will be that of man projecting them there causing many to believe it is Christ coming down to earth in a time of devastating chaos as this Luciferien systems promises peace and safety as many will believe this lie and bow down and take the mark of this beast which will seal their fate that is the lake of fire.
 
I said:
"The context of 2 Thess 2 is about the one ruler anti-christ who the Bible calls the beast."
The Bible attaches many heads to the Beast spanning 1,000’s of years.
That has nothing to do with the specific context of 2 Thess 2 regarding the one ruler anti-christ who is a man, not a demon. There is no doubt that he is demon possessed, probably by the devil himself.
 
Possessed by the devil ?

So the " man of sin " is possessed by the goat the Levites blamed for the sins of world ?

Interesting, is there more to it ?
 
Can you give us some of those heads from scripture?
Sure:

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings. The five fell, the one is, the other did not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short time.
Revelation 17:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9-10&version=DLNT

The five kings (five heads) that had fallen were the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece.

The one king alive at the time John revealed that the seven heads of The Beasts were kings (men) while The Beasts were demons doing signs was the king of Rome.

The one king (one of the seven heads) John revealed would come is the man of lawlessness spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess 2. All the while, revealing that The Beasts themselves are demons doing signs.
 
There is no doubt that he is demon possessed, probably by the devil himself.
No doubt.⬆️

Much doubt ⬇️
That has nothing to do with the specific context of 2 Thess 2 regarding the one ruler anti-christ who is a man,

The five fell, the one is, the other did not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short time.
Revelation 17:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:10&version=DLNT

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of His mouth and do-away-with by the appearance of His coming — whose coming is in accordance with the working of Satan, with all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and with every deception of unrighteousness for the ones perishing because they did not receive the love of the truth so that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 2:8-10&version=DLNT

The heads are kings (the seventh being the lawless one). The Beasts are demons. Simple.
 
Sure:

Here is the mind having wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits on them, and they are seven kings. The five fell, the one is, the other did not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short time.
Revelation 17:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:9-10&version=DLNT

The five kings (five heads) that had fallen were the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece.

The one king alive at the time John revealed that the seven heads of The Beasts were kings (men) while The Beasts were demons doing signs was the king of Rome.

The one king (one of the seven heads) John revealed would come is the man of lawlessness spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess 2. All the while, revealing that The Beasts themselves are demons doing signs.

The three unclean spirits are spirits of demons that proceed out of the mouth of Satan who gives power and authority to his unholy trinity that is Satan (first unclean spirit), the men that make up the Luciferian NWO (second unclean spirit) and the (third unclean spirit) being the son of perdition who is a man as they all speak with the authority and power of the Dragon, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, Rev 13:11- 18. The son of perdition is the last antichrist as he being the son of perdition is also the false prophet who speaks lies and teaches a twisted word of God that deceives the nations.

These three spirits of demons being Satan's trinity being Satan, Luciferian NWO and the son of perdition will send out wondrous signs to the political leaders (kings) of the earth and throughout all the nations as the signs are that of the monumental greatness of this modern day tower of Babel with its seat in Jerusalem as they make a name for themselves setting themselves above all that is God's and cause many to fall away from truth as they take the mark of the beast with his number being that of a man as his number is 666.
Genesis 11:1-9; Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, Rev 13:11- 18
 
Possessed by the devil ?

So the " man of sin " is possessed by the goat the Levites blamed for the sins of world ?
Please cite the poster you're responding to. Makes life simpler.

But I never suggested that the devil is blamed for the sins of the world. Each person is held accountable for the sins they commit.
 
Well, I was quoting Freegrace, under the post that Freegrace made, who is to my knowledge, the only poster in this thread who made that claim , which is why I quoted the poster word for word ( Unless there was another poster who said those things, I missed it )

I agree, " the devil made me do it " or " the devil made me sin " are rather silly claims ( Unless you are a Levite, living quite some time ago )

Willingly accepting personal responsibility is a good sign of an adult, imo
 
The three unclean spirits are spirits of demons
I know. Which is why John visions them coming out of the mouth of The Dragon AND the mouth of The Beast AND the mouth of The False Prophet. (There are three mouths and thus three demons.). And then tells us that it’s these demons doing the signs. The signs that The Beasts do, because “they are demons doing signs”. Simple.
 
Well, I was quoting Freegrace, under the post that Freegrace made, who is to my knowledge, the only poster in this thread who made that claim , which is why I quoted the poster word for word ( Unless there was another poster who said those things, I missed it )
This is what I actually said in post #746:
"That has nothing to do with the specific context of 2 Thess 2 regarding the one ruler anti-christ who is a man, not a demon. There is no doubt that he is demon possessed, probably by the devil himself."

Are you unaware of the fact that demons can possess human beings??

What was Jesus casting out of people during His ministry?

I agree, " the devil made me do it " or " the devil made me sin " are rather silly claims ( Unless you are a Levite, living quite some time ago )

Willingly accepting personal responsibility is a good sign of an adult, imo
Are you denying the fact that demons can possess humans?
 
This is what I actually said in post #746:
"That has nothing to do with the specific context of 2 Thess 2 regarding the one ruler anti-christ who is a man, not a demon. There is no doubt that he is demon possessed, probably by the devil himself."

Are you unaware of the fact that demons can possess human beings??

What was Jesus casting out of people during His ministry?


Are you denying the fact that demons can possess humans?


Oh, no , but you bring up a great point and that is that many are rather confused on what the word " demon " means ( Not surprisingly, when many think the devil is a little red guy with horns )

" demon " in english is from " daemon " ( Greek ) and in Greek, the word means BOTH good and bad spirits, my friend

δαιμων daimon {dah'-ee-mown} from daio (to distribute fortunes); TDNT - 2:1,137; n m/f AV - devils 4, devil 1; 5 1) a god, a goddess 1a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad 2) in the NT, an evil spirit

In fact, you bring up another good point, and that is the major difference between the Holy Spirit and the spirit in Judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_in_Judaism

In Judaism, the Holy Spirit ( Ruach Hakodesh ) really only indwelt a prophet ( Like Christ ), as opposed to the modern version people have created for themselves, claiming they are indwelt by this spirit ( They share the ruach ( spirit ) , they aren't the vessel for ruach hakodesh ( Holy Spirit ), that's the physical body of Christ the man that serves as the vessel for it, like the Ark did )

Not only did it only indwell a prophet, the descriptions of what happens to that person is exactly what modern Christians describe as a " demonic possession "

" casting out devils " is specifically from the Levite rituals, " blaming your sins on the devil " is from the exact same

There's really no point in denying it

So, to answer your question .....................no...............no..............I don't deny that at all, in fact I know it to be a fact

Any more questions for me ?

:)




 
I know. Which is why John visions them coming out of the mouth of The Dragon AND the mouth of The Beast AND the mouth of The False Prophet. (There are three mouths and thus three demons.). And then tells us that it’s these demons doing the signs. The signs that The Beasts do, because “they are demons doing signs”. Simple.

So, by what you are saying is you believe the Dragon, the beast and the false prophet are just invisible spirits (demons) that no one could possibly see with their own eyes, but yet these demons have the ability to literally make a false peace treaty, supply food and safety to those who will somehow bow down to them and take their mark without actually seeing them and worship at, I guess would also be invisible feet.
 
Oh, no , but you bring up a great point and that is that many are rather confused on what the word " demon " means ( Not surprisingly, when many think the devil is a little red guy with horns )

" demon " in english is from " daemon " ( Greek ) and in Greek, the word means BOTH good and bad spirits, my friend

δαιμων daimon {dah'-ee-mown} from daio (to distribute fortunes); TDNT - 2:1,137; n m/f AV - devils 4, devil 1; 5 1) a god, a goddess 1a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad 2) in the NT, an evil spirit

In fact, you bring up another good point, and that is the major difference between the Holy Spirit and the spirit in Judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_in_Judaism

In Judaism, the Holy Spirit ( Ruach Hakodesh ) really only indwelt a prophet ( Like Christ ), as opposed to the modern version people have created for themselves, claiming they are indwelt by this spirit ( They share the ruach ( spirit ) , they aren't the vessel for ruach hakodesh ( Holy Spirit ), that's the physical body of Christ the man that serves as the vessel for it, like the Ark did )

Not only did it only indwell a prophet, the descriptions of what happens to that person is exactly what modern Christians describe as a " demonic possession "

" casting out devils " is specifically from the Levite rituals, " blaming your sins on the devil " is from the exact same

There's really no point in denying it

So, to answer your question .....................no...............no..............I don't deny that at all, in fact I know it to be a fact

Any more questions for me ?

:)
So, you are refuting Ezekiel 36:27; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:14 to name a few scriptures that say we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit?
Gods Spirit (Holy Spirit) indwelling us is what keeps those of faith from being thrown into the lake of fire as we are risen with Christ and seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Colossians 3:1-4.
 
And a human being is doing that. I've brought this up many times. A fallible human being is inferring meaning. I'm simply pointing out the obvious: Why is your interpretation superior to another's? Because of the HS? This is the default position of many. I trust the HS, but I don't trust our ability to get it right. We are a HUGE part of the equation. There are competing views on many things, Hell being no exception. I have a book, written by 4 well-credentialed Biblical scholars, who all hold to a different view on the nature of Hell. And you're answer would be to just accept Scripture? That's what they are claiming to do.

Exactly my point. And since we are discussing, we ought to start from the premise that we are fallible and could be wrong, in spite of any effort on the HS's part.

Yes and both sides claim they have the HS and all of Scripture on their side. Which is why we ought to take a humble position on disputed topics. I believe I'm in agreement with your position on OSAS.

As for Hell: We don't know.
What is the lake of fire? Is it an actual place or thing? Do people suffer forever (which would mean that God would deliberately create their bodies so they could feel pain, suffer horribly, and not die. Sounds sadistic to me.
It doesn't matter what hell is. It's not a pleasant place. It won't be a picnic. But whatever it is, it's a place that a loving God created for His Holy purpose. Whatever Hell is, it's rooted in God's love since God is Love. All God's actions are rooted in love.

Hi PZ,

I believe your suggestion is illogical and not reflected in the means and process of the actual perfection of the Saints in Christ.

1) Man is fallible.
2) Credentialed Bible Scholars can have opposing Scriptural interpretation on the same topic or verse.
3) Conclusion, we cannot rely on our study of Scripture to gain accurate, true interpretation.

Neither 1 nor 2 support such a conclusion. (I apologize if I have misunderstood your argument)

You have mentioned something similar in a prior post somewhere, and I responded to that post similarly to the following:

I strongly disagree with your suggestion that "we ought to start from the premise that we are fallible and could be wrong, in spite of any effort on the HS's part." That seems to be just another way of saying that we cannot arrive at truth pertaining to disputed doctrines. God said He would lead us into all truth. This must include such a critically important topic as one's condition after death. After all, is not Hell one of the main topics that Christ preached?

God is our starting point on all things pertaining to God, man, and our universe. This necessarily includes Scriptural interpretation and our understanding concerning the condition of persons after mortal death. There is simply no other starting point (In the beginning GOD...). So I believe we should proceed from the presumption that God is infallible, and it is His desire to provide us correct interpretation on any given verse or topic, subject to His judgment on what we can potentially understand and bear in our finite, post-Adamic condition. His answer might be: I cannot answer your question at this time; but that is still an answer, and it is absolute truth.

The application of false doctrine produces those things contrary to holiness, righteousness, peace, true salvation, etc. In other words, those things contrary to Christ. Annihilationism provides a false savior and thus detracts from focusing on Christ alone for deliverance from sin, the trials of life, and personal failure. There are many indicators of false interpretation of Scripture. One of the most important being a deviation from a christ centric view of Scripture. That is, man focusing on something man can do to save man. That is found in the false doctrine of annihilationism, for a man only has to cut his throat and he is suddenly delivered from accountability, the oppression of man, the bondage of sin, failure, sorrow, worry, etc. That is a work of man saving himself. That is not Christ-centric; that is man-centric. Thus, that is an obvious and observable move away from Scriptural Truth because Christ is Truth. Therefore, the doctrine of Annihilationism is both false and heretical because it attempts to provide an alternative savior to the Lord Jesus. The application of this false teaching will actually produce measurable, unchristlike qualities and work in the lives of its faithful proponents.

So by a combination of sincerely seeking truth, assurance/guidance of the Holy Spirit, using certain critically important hermeneutics, the study of God's Word, and life experience (the end results of application), we do not have to be left wondering what constitutes true doctrine in spite of the fact that man is fallible and there happens to be credentialed Bible Scholars that hold opposing scriptural interpretation.

Correct biblical interpretation and application either does or does not produce the fruits of the spirit and maturity in Christ. These are observable and measurable. Show me a man that is healing the sick and raising the dead, and I will show you a man that has a good handle on correctly interpreting those biblical verses and events pertaining to a major aspect of God's plan for healing. One man claims that healing is not for the Church today, another man claims the opposite and is performing bonafide, observable miracles in the name of Christ. So who is obviously telling the truth? What is the end result of applying various doctrinal claims? Is such application producing Christlikeness in thought, word , and action, or is it producing something opposite?

So I believe there are definite ways to determine if our Scriptural interpretation and its application are based on Truth. And of course we must be willing to wait on the Lord for revealed knowledge, even if it means waiting for months or years.
 
Last edited:
Some people choose not to believe in the God of the Bible because they don’t like the thought of an angry God who would punish people eternally in hell. I used to think the same thing. Before I became a Christian, I didn’t know that there were many attributes of God. Most people are familiar with the Bible verse “God is love.” And He is. But He is also just. He is holy. He is righteous. And because of these other attributes, He also has a tough side — and rightfully so.


The Bible refers to hell as the “kingdom of darkness” and declares that “the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth”
(MATTHEW 8:12).

God hates sin. Period. None of us on earth can fully realize just how much God hates even the smallest sin. I had not pictured a God who had this stern side. One day, however, I realized that I couldn’t just create the God that I wanted. God is not an exercise in imagination, or visualization, or mind projection. He exists independent of my thoughts about Him. But that’s what I was trying to do as I ignored what the Bible had to say about God. The real God is the one I will certainly stand before when I die, not my imaginary “God.”
Since we know the Bible to be true, we also know that the God we will face will be the God of the Bible. So we need to discover, and really understand, why He has this wrathful side.And we need to know what we can do to make sure we don’t see that side of Him when we die. The Bible, God’s Word, tells us why we incur His wrath and how we can avoid it:
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: (Colossians 3:5–6)

We also read in the Bible that:
… the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:18)

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, (Romans 2:5–8)

So if people face God’s wrath and go to hell, it will be because they choose to. The God who created this universe has given us proof of His existence, yet many refuse to acknowledge it.
The Bible explains that the “lake of fire” was originally prepared “for the devil and his angels,” but people who obey these evil beings will go into the lake of fire with them.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)

It isn’t God’s desire that people go to hell, but He gives us the free will to choose.
As we read in Psalm 139:8, “If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”
There is a saying, “You made your bed; now lie in it!” So “making our bed” is a preparation for lying in it. That is, our actions determine our future — like it or not.
While we spend our time preparing to go to hell, God is with us. We can turn to Him at any moment and say, “God, I’m sorry I’ve offended you. Please get me out of this mess and put me on the right track,” and He will help us. But once we’re dead and in hell, it’s too late to ask for help.
In the Matthew passage above we learned that hell wasn’t originally created with people in mind. Heaven was:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:34)

The Bible is very explicit about the fact that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He says:

… As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live … (Ezekiel 33:11a)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

It is not a happy day for Him when someone dies and goes to hell. Will it be a bad day for God when you die?


There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “All right, then, have it your way.”
—C. S. LEWIS

Many people believe it is unfair for God to send individuals to hell for eternity. God is being entirely fair, based on their rejection of Him.
If people don’t want anything to do with Him here on earth, why would we think they would want anything to do with Him on the other side? If they hate the thought of God in this life, they will hate being with Him in the next.
Author Frank Harber stated:
For God to force people to go to heaven against their wishes wouldn’t be heaven — it would be hell. Atheist author Jean-Paul Sarte noted that the gates of hell are locked from the inside by the free choice of men and women.68

C. S. Lewis wrote:
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “All right, then, have it your way.”69
 
part 2:


We are given the freedom to choose between evil and good, between God’s will and our own. God is simply honoring our choices — and allowing us to face the consequences.
One of the things I was told years ago is that hell is simply being separated from the presence of God for all of eternity. But according to Revelation 14:10–11, that is not a true statement in the way most people understand it.
None of us can fully comprehend what the absence of God in our lives would mean. Regardless of whether we credit His existence or not, “in him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28), and “by him all things consist” (Colossians 1:17). Existence without His sustaining presence is horrifying. But we don’t have to imagine anything; the Bible presents us with that reality:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)

God is experienced by those in hell in two very terrible ways: First, He is present as a witness, along with the holy angels:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.(Revelation 14:9–10) [emphasis added]

Second, He is there in the memory of the damned. One of the greatest torments for them will be to remember how God spoke to them continually, in the depths of their hearts, telling them “This is the way; walk ye in it” (Isaiah 30:21). And they will remember that they refused to listen to Him. In hell, people aren’t able to “get away” from God. They rejected and denied His all-loving presence for every second of every minute of their lives on earth, and must exist, riddled with regret, for every second of eternity.
But over and over, God has clearly said we are choosing. For example:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (1 Corinthians 11:31)

God is the glory of heaven and the terror of hell. It is the wrath of God that makes hell hell. If you wind up in hell, you end up being away from the glory of the Lord — His goodness — but you will never get away from His wrath.
Some people think Satan is in charge of hell, but Satan is a defeated foe and isn’t in charge of anything. God is always in charge! He is the sovereign ruler over all of heaven and earth — and hell. Hell is not a kingdom for Satan to rule, or a place for people to party. It is a place of eternal punishment.
The worst part of hell is not the torment, but that the torment will never end. If you are one of those rejecting the truth of God, it will be a fearful thing for you to stand before God one day. Picture the scene as portrayed by the prophet and apostle, John:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



Some people think Satan is in charge of hell, but Satan is a defeated foe and isn’t in charge of anything.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11–15)

The first death is when our soul separates from our body. At that moment, if we are believing in and loving God, our soul also will go to be with God. Paul wrote when pondering the inevitability of his own death:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

The second death happens at the last judgment, when a soul who didn’t go to be with God, and who has been in hell until then, is formally sentenced along with the rest of condemned mankind to separation from the all-loving presence of God and goes into the lake of fire for eternity.
We will all experience the first death, but how can you and I make sure that we don’t experience the second death? We will see very shortly what determines the difference between eternal life in heaven and eternal suffering in hell. You will want to be sure you never go anywhere near there for even ten seconds, let alone for ten-million-plus years.

“It’s Not Safe to Die”

I talked with a young man one day who mentioned that he had been injured and wound up on an emergency-room operating table. He said his heart had stopped beating and, as his soul rose up out of his body, immediately the sense of an evil presence began to come over him and he could hear an evil hissing laughter. He told me he was so glad to get back into his body and be alive! He now knows how real evil is.
A respiratory nurse who works in an emergency room told me about a patient who had gone “code red” — he flat-lined. She and some other medical personnel rushed over with the defibrillator to try to bring him back to life. They applied the paddles and revived him. She said that he started screaming and shouting, “The heat, the heat!” Then his heart stopped again. They brought him back a second time. He shouted, “The flames, the flames!” They lost him again. Four times the man flat-lined and was brought back, each time shouting about the heat or the flames. After the last time, he died and they couldn’t bring him back. She said all the doctors and nurses just stood there for a few minutes and stared at the body. They all knew that man went to hell. He was screaming it to them before he even got out of here.
I have met several people (all in a non-drug and non-alcohol-induced state) who experienced a burning hell rather than being with Jesus, or the typical “tunnel and white light” scenario. So don’t believe that sweetness-and-light near-death stories are the only kind people report.
Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a cardiologist, has witnessed numerous patients during and after their near-death experiences and reported his findings inBeyond Death’s Door. After interviewing 300 patients immediately after resuscitation, Dr. Rawlings says that nearly half of them reported seeing a lake of fire, devil-like figures, and other sights reflecting the reality of hell. “There is a life after death,” Rawlings said, “and if I don’t know where I’m going, it’s not safe to die.”

He also discovered that when patients who had described their experiences in hell vividly were asked about those experiences a few days later, they couldn’t recall them. This may explain why many researchers find only “good cases.” He believes some patients change their story because they’re embarrassed to admit where they’ve been, even to their families, while those who had heavenly visions remember and report the details.70
So don’t get a false sense of security that what follows death is always a pleasant thing. Hell is a very real place — one that you really don’t want to go to when you die.
Voltaire, the famous French author, philosopher, and atheist, was once asked if he would say something to comfort a friend who was dying. Voltaire responded, “I don’t think I can do that. The thought that there might really be a hell plagues me continually.”
 
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Gods love and patience is wearing thin and if we right now are still alive during the time of His great wrath during the seven trumpets we will see those who refuse to turn back to Him as in the end He comes on them as a thief in the night and their penalty for rejecting Him will be everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.
 
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3
Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?
Matt 19:16
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matt 25:46
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
1 John 3:15
Truth - eternal life in the context above is a gift, of eternity with God,
Some regard the term eternal life like a prize you hang rounso d your neck, not related to who you are and what God
has done in ones life.

John is simply saying if you claim to be walking in communion with God, to have stepped from death to life,
and yet hate ones brother or sister, the truth is not in you.
We are washed clean, made righteous.

Jesus is asked what good things must someone do to be called righteous, and have eternal life.
The answer is

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Matt 19:21

It is odd to me, when people hear Jesus's words about following Him, yet they deny He is calling them
but actually just showing it is impossible to follow Jesus, so you must rely on Jesus to follow Jesus, while
you sin and fail to follow Jesus. That strikes me as nonsense, Either Jesus is leading the way and calling
us to follow or He is doing everything and everyone is saved. If His words say follow, guess what that means,
follow !!!!
 
[edited]

Absolutely true. (See, I know the truth)


OK, this is where we depart. What verse says this? In fact, none do. Eternal life is possessed on the basis of faith in Christ. So says John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47,54, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13.

Combine that with what Jesus said in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish.

There are NO verses that speak of ANY requirement to "stay in belief". Yes, there are a number of verses encouraging/commanding believer to "continue in the faith" etc, but NONE about eternal life given only to those who stay in belief.

Think about it for a sec. If that were true, then eternal life could NOT be given until the end of one's life, after proving that they did stay in belief. Yet Jesus was a clear as could be about WHEN one POSSESSES eternal life in Jn 5:24. Those who believe HAVE eternal life.

Verse, please.

We agree on this point.

Unfortunately, this make no sense. Eternal life doesn't "end only when you die". And again, where is the verse?

What does this have to do with the discussion of eternal life? It seems as though you're saying you have eternal life until you die. Which makes no sense.

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

Saying eternal life is life without end with Christ, is not a difficult idea to understand.
Life that does not end in death is "eternal" "forever" life. Eternal means forever. Life means life.

Let us take John 12:25 and break the sentence down.
Life is the subject. Life as in the act of living. Those who love their life on earth will lose it, ie die, have
life taken away from them
Those who hate their life on earth, in this world will keep it, "life", for eternity.

Now it appears to me conceptually some take the term "eternal life" and make it something different
from life in eternity.

Belief does not have to be continuous. So let me think of analogy.
I believe a rope will hold my weight as I swing across a deep valley. I must land and take off the rope on
the other side to be saved. Now I have faith for a time that the rope will work, but never have to swing
across. The time comes for me to swing across, and I have lost my faith, so cannot, so will perish.
Yes while I believed I was saved, because when the time came, I would trust and be saved.
But without faith in that time, the faith I had for a time has no value, because only when it becomes real
does it matter.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 cor 15:58

Why should we stand firm? Because only if we abide are we saved and the labor is not in vain.
If salvation is just a spark in the pan.
1. The sower and the seed. If any plant grows, it produces seed worthy of harvest
2. Standing firm is irrelevant, you are saved, because nothing can ever be in vain
3. Believe in Jesus, but betray and trample on Him afterwards, because He forgives you and will welcome
you home to a house you despise.

Any argument has its opposite implication. If one behaviour means things are not it vain, the other means
it is all pointless. Let the reader draw which is which, because I have learnt, this is a spiritual dimension of
reality, and those who believe all are saved, believe just stating staying in faith is an evil lie. It is odd to me
how some can derive no obvious opposite implications from what Paul writes, but condemn believing faithful
believers as evil who actually follow Jesus. And nothing I write will make any difference to them, because they
have heard it all before, lol. Wise teachers, not.
 
Back
Top