Arminianism and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

He's another one I've read a lot from.

I was saddened when I learned R.C. Sproul died December 14, 2017

 

[Christ_empowered]

I like that. Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a calvanist armenian - a mixture of the two.
So I believe people are lost without hope of finding God, unless He choses them.
I believe once we have revelation there is opportunity to choose to follow or not.
So my experience is people are emotionally and spiritually blind to where they are, and the
answer to this dilemma is a small gate and narrow path that leads to life.
And along the way there are many distractions and possibilities of failure.
Pilgrims progress sums it up in part.

Now I met a guy who believed the mirror image to me on all the points.
He got very angry, and was convinced I was an evil lying deceiptful individual and said so.

I found this ironic, and I really do mean ironic, because the very failure of his approach to
see what I believed and how I stood, and to throw these accusations at me, made him what
he said I was. He felt justified to behave in a non-christian manner because I was so evil.

I found it illuminating how he showed his sinful attitudes simply by saying one thing, then denying
he said it and saying I said things which when read just one post before showed he was lying.
This shows the power some of these ideas has on our souls and how easily our emotions can
deceive us.

If God chooses who is to be enlightened,
isn't He, in effect, also choosing who is to be lost?
My entire problem with Calvinism is that it changes the character of God.

How could John say that God IS love,
1 John 4:8
and then hear some, such as yourself, say that they believe God must choose US.

Doesn't God choose everyone?
John 3:16

(sorry, you'll be hearing a lot of John. John 3:16 seems to deny everything Calvin taught)

 

[Cygnus]

If God chooses who is to be enlightened,
isn't He, in effect, also choosing who is to be lost?
My entire problem with Calvinism is that it changes the character of God.

Considering everyone is lost...and God doesn't have to choose anyone...I personally don't see your point.

Doesn't God choose everyone?

No. Is God unjust in choosing?

Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

 

[PeterJens]

If God chooses who is to be enlightened,
isn't He, in effect, also choosing who is to be lost?
My entire problem with Calvinism is that it changes the character of God.

How could John say that God IS love,
1 John 4:8
and then hear some, such as yourself, say that they believe God must choose US.

Doesn't God choose everyone?
John 3:16

(sorry, you'll be hearing a lot of John. John 3:16 seems deny everything Calvin taught)

I agree this is a problem but is this a binary issue.
When young people first go out on a date, they choose each other for a variety of reasons.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. Both choose but this does not define the outcome.

I have become convinced like a farmer looking at plants some plants are spoiled from the beginning.
My picture of God is not as the controller of creation rather as the enabler of creation to develop and
go the way it chooses to. He seems to desire freedom is expressed and the consequences inherited
by everything given their circumstance.

Now when God chooses, it is not like he is condemning those not chosen, there is something in the
situation which means it is not appropriate. Jesus was very specific to the disciples

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."
John 15:16

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Col 3:12

For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,
I Thess 1:4

All I can testify to is my lostness, and Gods pursuit of my heart and my slow understanding.
Those who live in darkness and denial who do not want truth and revelation, hide from the light.

And when you look at Gods chosen, many fall beside the path, so even out of those who know
and learn, many do not follow through. So I think we are so lost, so blind, so deaf and dumb, unless
Jesus took us by the hand and lead us through, we would have no hope.

And only so many can be saved, because it is so difficult. If God could He would save all, but He will
save those who are appointed and what is possible. Some talk as if God chose all could be saved, but
I think this is just totally miss-understanding the nature of God and the Kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, Romans 9 speaks of personal individuals.

I agree God used Israel to bring salvation through Christ Jesus.....but that is not the main subject of Romans 9.
Verse 16 tells us....It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Notice it doesn't say it depends on Israels desire or effort. The verse is individualized. Later we read.... 20 But who are you, a human being,.....Why use human being if the verse is about Israel?

The subject is Gods soverign choice.

First of all, we have to understand that Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about Israel.
There's no doubting this. It's not me saying this, but very learned theologians.
I don't only listen to what my church tells me, I also learn on my own.

Let's do a little study here. For you and for those who may be reading along.

The New International Standard Version (NIV) which is no friend of Arminianism (or loss of salvation) states:

Major Theme
"Although justification by faith has been suggested by some as the theme, it would seem that a broader theme states the message of the book more adequately. Paul's emphasis on "righteousness from God" (1:17) includes justification by faith, but it also embraces such related themes as, guilt, sanctification and security."


Content
"Paul then shows that Israel too, though presently in a sate of unbelief, has a place in God's sovereign redemptive plan. Now she consists of only a remnant, allowing for the conversion of the Gentiles, but the time will come when all Israel will be saved. (11:26)".

Special Characteristics
"Widespread use of O.T. quotations. Although Paul regularly quotes from the O.T. in his letters, in Romans the argument is sometimes carried along by such quotations..see especially chs. 9-11."

Outline
VI God's Righteousness Vindicated:The Justice of His Way with Israel (chs. 9-11)
A. The Justice of God's Rejection of Israel (9:1-29)
B. The Cause of That Rejection (9:30-10:21)
C. The Rejection Is Neither Complete Nor Final (ch 11)
1. There is even now a remnant (11:1-10)
2. The rejection is only temporary (11:11-24)
3. God's ultimate purpose is mercy (11:25-36)

source: NIV Study Bible, Zondervan

You may use any bible you wish. If you read the introduction to the book of Romans you'll find that the above holds true.

To answer your verses posted:
Romans 9:16
Is speaking about Esau and Jacob.
God knew that Jacob would be the blessed one.
He knew that Esau did not deserve the blessing because he would forfeit his inheritance for a bowl of "soup". God decided, based on foreknowledge, that the blessing would belong to Jacob.

God shows mercy based on whom He knows is deserving because that person will choose Christ. His mercy is based on our choice for Christ.

Romans 9:20
This verse does not refer to a man but to "humankind".
That would be ALL of us. It's saying that God has the right to form salvation economy as He wishes, not as man wishes.
See Job 38:4-18 which is similar in thought.

Romans chapters 9 to 11 is speaking about Israel.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes God's sovereign choice for purpose not for salvation.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymenaccording to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Romans 9:3-5

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came,

The context is about God choosing who would be the lineage of Christ, not who God chose to be saved or not saved.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

God shows mercy based on whom He knows is deserving because that person will choose Christ. His mercy is based on our choice for Christ.

A person can merit justice, but mercy and grace by their very definition are free and unmerited. Questioning the Lord’s justice in choosing only some for salvation assumes that He owes redemption to all sinners, but if redemption is by grace alone, it can never be owed. To give mercy to some and not others would be unjust only if mercy is owed, but mercy cannot be demanded; otherwise it ceases to be mercy. ref

 

[GodsGrace]

No if you continue to read, it states why Gods Word hasn’t failed simply because the majority of Jews have rejected Christ. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel”.. Then Paul goes on to explain how this grace individually is given, by the election of grace. This has everything to do with individual election to salvation by Gods Sovereign mercy. Those who refuse to believe this must explain vs 6.

There is no problem with
Romans 9:6
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants,

God's word has not failed just because not all Jews accepted Jesus.
One is not Jewish (Israel) just because he is born of Israel (Jacob).
One must also believe in the promise and believe in the God that made that promise.

This seems simple enough to me.
Could YOU explain your sentence in your post which I highlighted?

 

[PeterJens]

God shows mercy based on whom He knows is deserving because that person will choose Christ. His mercy is based on our choice for Christ.

I am not saying whether this is true or not. But if you chose 20 people to go on a walk with you, sent out
the invites and only 3 decide to come, do you say you chose the 3 alone, or the 20? And did you choose
the 20 because 20 could have decided, so with justice you gave a fair opportunity and you knew only 3
would respond but you showed it to 20 to be just.

Israel was chosen out of Egypt yet many thousands died in rebellion.
And how can choice be real unless you understand the choice and how can you understand without actually
by being saved? So I see a problem is us going to far in our logic, other than saying love is sovereign and our
Lord will do all He can to save as many as possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know R.C. Sproul took TULIP and improved upon the meaning. For instance he took Total Depravity and said this about it:
"I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption." For those who are interested in why can read the article here.

Here is what R.C. Sproul (RIP) says in your linked article:

I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radicalhas to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being. Even the English word core actually comes from the Latin word cor, which means “heart.” That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. In biblical terms, that means it’s from the core or very center of our existence.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.

Interesting Cygnus,
Even RC Sproul can't agree with Total Depravity!

He's changed the meaning and used a different term, "Radical Corruption" which is more in line with traditional Christianity. By "traditional" I mean what the majority of Christians believe.

I agree 100% with what he's stated above.
Original Sin did not make us into totally depraved persons, but it corrupted us and we still have the lingering effect of that sin.

Jesus does not intend for us to be changed superficially, but He required a total change from the INSIDE, our heart, or Cor, being the target.

See. We're finally getting somewhere...

 

[GodsGrace]

I used to lean towards Arminianism...until I heard a preacher speak on Eph 2. Being dead in our sins and trespasses...needing to be made alive in Christ.
He presented the analogy we all have probably heard.....that is, a man was drowning, going down for the last time and needed to be saved. A life preserver was tossed to him and all he had to do was reach out and grab the life preserver and get saved. People use this to support all we need to do is reach out and choose Jesus. Then he went on to say.....that analogy is bad. Being dead in our sins and trespasses we can't reach out and grab the life preserved. In fact we're laying dead on the bottom of the ocean. God himself must jump in and dive to the bottom and bring us out of the ocean and restore life to us. Understanding that Calvinism began to make sense.

If the above is true...
Why do unsaved persons perform good deeds?
(you were right the first time!)

How dead do you think we are?
Of course we're dead in our sins.
Dead spiritually until we come to believe... not dead that we can't even move from the bottom of a lake.

John 3:16-20

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Does that sound to you like persons are UNABLE to know good from evil?
It even tells us WHY men are afraid of the light.
How do you explain John 3:16-20 in the Calvinist view??

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't know. I'm not gung-ho, 110% dedicated to Calvinism, BUT...

have you ever wondered how the most unlikely people end up as genuine conversions, while people who have known -about- Jesus their entire lives end up going seriously astray?

My take on it is that God -is- merciful in saving at least some people. How many, I have no clue. Hell is mankind's default position, and thru Christ's atonement on behalf of The Elect, He has made a way for at least some of humanity to get right with God and enter Heaven.

I'm not big on TULIP because I think only -special- people are part of the elect or because I necessarily -like- the idea, but rather..I think it lines up with both Scripture and what happens in "The real world," or at least that's how it seems to me, anyway.

 

[Cygnus]

Even RC Sproul can't agree with Total Depravity!

I think you need to re-read what R.C. had to say...
So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.

Step one....the Holy Spirit regenerates the non-believer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Considering everyone is lost...and God doesn't have to choose anyone...I personally don't see your point.



No. Is God unjust in choosing?

Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

You're right Cygnus.
When we're born we're all lost.
My point, which you have difficulty with, is that if God is a loving and just God, He will either let all these lost souls just be condemned.

IF, He chooses some over others to be saved, He is no longer a just God.
How could He possibly be if He chooses some to go to hell?
That is completely unjust.
Romans 2:11
Acts 10:34

In Romans it is the same Paul speaking that you claim says God chooses whom will be saved.
In Acts it is Peter speaking. He spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus and know more about what Jesus taught than R.C. Sproul, or anyone else.

With all due respect, I really believe you need to study Romans 9 to 11 very carefully with an open mind.

 

[PeterJens]

How dead do you think we are?

I think we behave in particular ways because of many issues in our lives.
Essentially we have a problem. When we meet Christ, we either leap for joy and know our Lord
or stand in rebellion, whether we know it or not.

I think this is the spiritual reality that will become all to obvious, which is why people with nash their
teeth and weep, because they can literally do nothing else and they do not know why.

It is easy to end up is a scales view of redemption, 50% good, 50% bad, rather than do you know
Christ and are cleansed or does sin poison everything one is.

An illness can kill us, but it is so small and so insignificant, but it destroys the process of life on
which we depend. So size does not matter but effect does.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not saying whether this is true or not. But if you chose 20 people to go on a walk with you, sent out
the invites and only 3 decide to come, do you say you chose the 3 alone, or the 20? And did you choose
the 20 because 20 could have decided, so with justice you gave a fair opportunity and you knew only 3
would respond but you showed it to 20 to be just.

Israel was chosen out of Egypt yet many thousands died in rebellion.
And how can choice be real unless you understand the choice and how can you understand without actually
by being saved? So I see a problem is us going to far in our logic, other than saying love is sovereign and our
Lord will do all He can to save as many as possible.

Logic? In the bible?
I believe because it says certain things. I don't know how logic has a lot to do with believing that a man came back to life!

As to your first paragraph.
I send out the invitations to all 20.
John 3:16 The WHOLE World

Only 3 decide to come?
They're the ones who will walk with me. (be saved)
I am NOT forcing the others, but I WILL INVITE them.

I knew only 3 would respond because I have foreknowledge.
But the invitation goes out to all.

Because God foreknows something, does NOT change history.
The same actions must still be taken or not taken.

I agree 100% with your last sentence.
God is a loving and just God and desires that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
1 Timothy 4:10

 

[Cygnus]

Why do unsaved persons perform good deeds?

They don't do it for the glory of God.....they do it for social reasons.

How dead do you think we are?
Of course we're dead in our sins.
Dead spiritually until we come to believe... not dead that we can't even move from the bottom of a lake.

Pretty dead. So dead we can't choose Jesus. In fact we can't come to believe unless God enables us to believe John 6:65. That's how dead we are.
While we were dead...God made us alive.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

As to John 3:16...I fail to see your point.

How do you explain John 3:16-20 in the Calvinist view??

If you believe in Christ Jesus...your saved.

 

[artful horizon]

(sighs) I think of the sins any man commits with relish when thinking themselves able to invent a doctrine in their name while imparting Christ's teachings need a bit of a tweak to make sense.
John Calvin was a lawyer by trade first. He then became a theologian thinking to blend the laws of the spirit into the laws of God. He was also a twisted intolerant savage. This proven when he had an opponent to his doctrinal invention, Michael Servetus, burned at the stake for heresy using green wood in the year 1553. Green wood burns very slowly and causes the one tied to the pyre to suffer excruciatingly and for hours.

Jacob Arminius was a student of Calvinism, ecclesiastically one in the number of Calvinists in his day. Where he diverged was to publicly undercut supralapsarian double election.
“The scriptures know no election by which God precisely and absolutely has determined to save anyone without having first considered him as a believer.”Jacob Arminius (1560-1609) Counters Calvinism.

Keeping it light:

Keep to no man made doctrine I say. The only man for whom we should align our faith and life and the teachings thereof is Yeshua and his instruction as to how to receive eternal salvation that is first a gift of The Father.
Unfortunately, Calvinism and Arminianism has divided the church. As have all the other man-named doctrines out there. Even Paul in his day knew this was not right. That hasn't changed.
Stick with Christ. No creed but. He's the reason we're able to live eternally with our Creator. Man's doctrines fall short every time. And they divide a people who are suppose to be one in Christ. That's not how it is suppose to be.

1 Corinthians 1:10-15

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know. I'm not gung-ho, 110% dedicated to Calvinism, BUT...

have you ever wondered how the most unlikely people end up as genuine conversions, while people who have known -about- Jesus their entire lives end up going seriously astray?

My take on it is that God -is- merciful in saving at least some people. How many, I have no clue. Hell is mankind's default position, and thru Christ's atonement on behalf of The Elect, He has made a way for at least some of humanity to get right with God and enter Heaven.

I'm not big on TULIP because I think only -special- people are part of the elect or because I necessarily -like- the idea, but rather..I think it lines up with both Scripture and what happens in "The real world," or at least that's how it seems to me, anyway.

CE
What about the poor souls who end up in hell because God didn't choose them?
How is that a loving God?
I still don't understand how you could serve a God who chooses who will be saved and who will not.

What if there was a pill that would cure our physical ailments.
The hospital does the enee meenee minee moe thing so half the patients get cured and the other half --- too bad for them.

Wouldn't it be more like God, being loving and just...
If the hospital asked "Who wants to take this pill ?"

What do you think about that?

We cannot know why some do not pick God.
My husband is not saved. His father made fun of persons who believed in God because He is not visible. He would make fun of me. Could that have had something to do with it?

Anyway, that is not our concern. Our concern is to hear the gospel message, and accept it.
If God does the choosing, WHY is there a gospel message? Everyone who was supposed to be saved would be saved anyway...