Arminianism and Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

I think we behave in particular ways because of many issues in our lives.
Essentially we have a problem. When we meet Christ, we either leap for joy and know our Lord
or stand in rebellion, whether we know it or not.

I think this is the spiritual reality that will become all to obvious, which is why people with nash their
teeth and weep, because they can literally do nothing else and they do not know why.

It is easy to end up is a scales view of redemption, 50% good, 50% bad, rather than do you know
Christ and are cleansed or does sin poison everything one is.

An illness can kill us, but it is so small and so insignificant, but it destroys the process of life on
which we depend. So size does not matter but effect does.

I do believe I agree with all you've said
I usually do, anyway...

 

[Cygnus]

John 3:16 The WHOLE World

From.....Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, John 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words,

 

[Cygnus]

What about the poor souls who end up in hell because God didn't choose them?
How is that a loving God?
I still don't understand how you could serve a God who chooses who will be saved and who will not.

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

You seem to be calling God unjust.

 

[Cygnus]

Wouldn't it be more like God, being loving and just...
If the hospital asked "Who wants to take this pill ?"

Being dead in your sin and trespasses....you can't take the pill.
God has to open your mouth and throw it down your throat. That's how dead you are.

 

[reba]

artful horizon I doubt it was Jon Calvin who gave his name to Calvinism..
wondering... as you say That passage of Romans was to the Jews.. But the whole of Scripture is for today..
Cygnus while i agree we are all lost "adams sin" ... that does not change "whosoever" will of John 3:16

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus while i agree we are all lost "adams sin" ... that does not change "whosoever" will of John 3:16

Yes, that's what the bible says.

It also says....John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Do you think the whosoever will....have to have first been granted the ability?

 

[reba]

Psa 40:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

 

[artful horizon]

artful horizon I doubt it was Jon Calvin who gave his name to Calvinism..

It is actually John. Huldrych Zwingli spread the Calvinist doctrine in the 1400's and it was termed Calvinism due to its inventor.
Just as is the case with Jacob Arminius, who was first a Calvinist.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Joh 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Joh 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
Joh 6:59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

So does that mean we should all believe we have to eat Messiah's flesh and drink His blood for him to be in us? Or is there another meaning to these verses?

It also says....John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Do you think the whosoever will....have to have first been granted the ability?

 

[reba]

It is actually John. Huldrych Zwingli spread the Calvinist doctrine in the 1400's and it was termed Calvinism due to its inventor.
Just as is the case with Jacob Arminius, who was first a Calvinist.

The term Calvinism can be misleading, because the religious tradition which it denotes has always been diverse, with a wide range of influences rather than a single founder. The movement was first called Calvinism by Lutherans who opposed it referring to French reformer John Calvin, and many within the tradition would prefer to use the word Reformed.[5][6]

 

[artful horizon]

One way to find out how the body of Christ stands on the foundation of Love, is to see how we talk to one another about His Gospel of grace and reconciliation.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Matthew 5:43-48
​

"For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God."

James 1:20 ​

 

[JLB]

No if you continue to read, it states why Gods Word hasn’t failed simply because the majority of Jews have rejected Christ. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel”.. Then Paul goes on to explain how this grace individually is given, by the election of grace. This has everything to do with individual election to salvation by Gods Sovereign mercy. Those who refuse to believe this must explain vs 6.

The context for Romans 9 is set forth at the beginning of the Chapter.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom arethe fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Romans 9:3-5

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

This is the foundational context on which the rest of the Chapter is built.

No where in all the Bible do we find that God predestined some for salvation while others for damnation.

If you which to discuss scripture then post the actual scripture itself and refer to the words of that scripture.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Those who refuse to believe this must explain vs 6.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” Romans 9:6-7

This is still referring to the purpose of the lineage of Christ, who came from the line of Isaac, not Ishmael.

We know for sure from the teaching of Jesus that all "seeds" are not Israel or sons of the kingdom of God, as explained in the tares and the wheat.

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. Romans 9:6


The objects of His wrath later mentioned are just that, tares or seeds of the wicked one, who are destined for destruction, though He allows them to to fixed or set in place to be used for His purpose.

Still the context is about protecting and preserving the predestined lineage of the Messiah, who came through the children of Israel, beginning with Abraham, Issac and Jacob.


17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:17-24



JLB

 

[JLB]

I used to lean towards Arminianism...until I heard a preacher speak on Eph 2. Being dead in our sins and trespasses...needing to be made alive in Christ.
He presented the analogy we all have probably heard.....that is, a man was drowning, going down for the last time and needed to be saved. A life preserver was tossed to him and all he had to do was reach out and grab the life preserver and get saved. People use this to support all we need to do is reach out and choose Jesus. Then he went on to say.....that analogy is bad. Being dead in our sins and trespasses we can't reach out and grab the life preserved. In fact we're laying dead on the bottom of the ocean. God himself must jump in and dive to the bottom and bring us out of the ocean and restore life to us. Understanding that Calvinism began to make sense.

When we use analogies to over rule the scriptures then we are in trouble of straying from the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


The condition set for for everlasting life is to believe.

I would hope all the body of Christ can agree on that.




JLB

 

[MCoop]

The context for Romans 9 is set forth at the beginning of the Chapter.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom arethe fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Romans 9:3-5

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

This is the foundational context on which the rest of the Chapter is built.

No where in all the Bible do we find that God predestined some for salvation while others for damnation.

If you which to discuss scripture then post the actual scripture itself and refer to the words of that scripture.

The fact that you just stated your opinion in an attempt to refute the scripture I presented, only shows us where your theology comes from.


JLB

Your mind is convinced already that election unto salvation isn’t taught in scripture. I ask you to give an interpretation for vs 6. But you couldn’t. I’m very well in context of what Paul is trying to get across in this chapter. Why were the Jews in great number rejecting their messiah as if the word of God had failed? Well Paul explains why Gods Word didn’t fail. And goes on to explain how. Although the nation of Israel is at the forefront, individual election unto salvation and Gods supremacy in bringing about His purpose is the foundation of this chapter. Which includes both Jews and gentiles. The opinion of Arminians on this chapter is what brings confusion. It’s a perversion of the text to dodge the real issue at hand and to say it’s speaking specifically about nations. Vs 6 squashes that notion. The election of grace in salvation and the blessings that come with it, is spiritual. Arminianism and Calvinism are complete opposites when understanding soteriology. So there’s no middle ground. And what is called Calvinism today is the biblical view

 

[reba]

JLB MCoop do not turn this thread inot a personal battle you have both stated your beliefs..

do not reply to this post in this thread

 

[JLB]

Your mind is convinced already that election unto salvation isn’t taught in scripture. I ask you to give an interpretation for vs 6. But you couldn’t. I’m very well in context of what Paul is trying to get across in this chapter. Why were the Jews in great number rejecting their messiah as if the word of God had failed? Well Paul explains why Gods Word didn’t fail. And goes on to explain how. Although the nation of Israel is at the forefront, individual election unto salvation and Gods supremacy in bringing about His purpose is the foundation of this chapter. Which includes both Jews and gentiles. The opinion of Arminians on this chapter is what brings confusion. It’s a perversion of the text to dodge the real issue at hand and to say it’s speaking specifically about nations. Vs 6 squashes that notion. The election of grace in salvation and the blessings that come with it, is spiritual. Arminianism and Calvinism are complete opposites when understanding soteriology. So there’s no middle ground. And what is called Calvinism today is the biblical view

Again, I will be glad to discuss with you, this subject, but again, I would ask that you post the scriptures and explain your point from the scriptures.

If you choose not to use the scriptures to make your point then I will just move.


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

Arminianism and Calvinism are complete opposites when understanding soteriology. So there’s no middle ground. And what is called Calvinism today is the biblical view

I honestly don't know what these men believed or taught, because I haven't studied their commentary.

I have an idea of what Calvin taught based on what others have posted in here, and described what TULIP stands for.

I'm sure both probably got some things wrong and some things right.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, that's what the bible says.

It also says....John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Do you think the whosoever will....have to have first been granted the ability?

This is a great example of taking a verse out of context.

• The context concerns disciples who came to Him and were following Him while He was physically on this earth making disciples.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:60-68


And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
John 6:65

• THE QUESTION:

The disciples that turned away from following Him, were they granted by God to come to Him in the first place?


And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32 KJV




JLB

 

[reba]

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32 KJV

then are men saved?