Justification and Sanctification

[GodsGrace]

What translation is this, because t’s NOT the NKJV nor any other besides your own. You’ve altered the NKJV v6 by including some of v5, yet without proper reference to it.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:​

Romans 2:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:6&version=NKJV


Who was Paul quoting in v6 (the passage properly quoted inside the quotation marks of the NKJV)?

Chessman,
No need for me to get involved here...
But I do find it amazing how you understand scripture differently from everyone else.

Also, why do you always post links to biblegateway?
I've never understood that. Not that I have to understand everything.

Instead of worrying about the Greek so much, and using so many fancy words, why not just concentrate on the language we all understand?

1 Corinthians 2:2-4

I really am interested in what church you attend, but I don't think I'm allowed to ask...

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB said: ↑


This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?

What saved you the first time?
What good is it to post verses?
You never answer to them even when I answer to yours.
And anyway, do you BELIEVE them?

 

[chessman]

Let us look at the grammer of the sentence.
The object of the sentence is He - God and the other object is each one ie individuals.

I know. That’s why the verse says his deeds and not ‘our deeds’ or ‘people’s deeds’.

In the Greek and English grammar, it is He (singluar) who renders and his (singular) deeds. In English the case of pronouns must match the object’s case (which it does as written but would not match using a plural pronoun such as our/people). Additionally, and here’s the rub, in the Greek grammar not only does the case of each pronoun have to match it’s object but so does the mood.

You didn’t answer, what object matches the case and mood of the pronoun “his” in the sentence?

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a problem with the proposition people do not have a spirit.
If you read scripture, spirit and soul are used interchangeably. The spirit of a person is their inner being or
consciousness. There is no scripture which says this exists separate from our bodies, though we know it
exists within everyone.

Often the term spirit is used to describe how they are feeling, in good spirits or bad spirits.
Now when Jesus says in spirit, I read this to mean from the heart, with all that they are, not just words
or performance.

Now there is gnostic teaching about being born from on high with an eternal spirit that enters the body
through faith. I saw a tv program where a "prophet" asked people to pray for this eternal spirit to enter
them now. To me this was absurd, and simply meaningless.

Jesus talked of Peters revelation that He was the Christ, the Messiah was only possible because of
the Father revealing it to Him. Now as I said before the new covenant is an intimate relationship with
God, where the holy of holies now dwells within.
This is the born again experience, which the apostles testified to happening to the gentiles, which they
had only seen before among the jewish believers.

So when we talk about the old testament, we are not talking about this intimacy, but a following of law
and obedience with sacrifices to appease sin. It is these people who talk about having a spirit.
Now if one says they are actually born again, then what is new about the new covenant, and the relationship
with God, that the indwelling Holy Spirit provided.

The reason why the curtain was torn in two, was to demonstrate such a change in Kingdom relationship.
If you want to propose something else, feel free, but this is my observations and convictions based on
scripture and teaching. God bless you. Praise the Lord we have salvation through the cross and confirmed
by the Holy Spirit in our hearts daily.

Some believe in the dichotomy of man, such as yourself.
Some believe in the trichotomy of man, such as myself.
It just makes it easier to understand the division.
However, yes, the spirit is always in there somewhere.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know. That’s why the verse says his deeds and not ‘our deeds’ or ‘people’s deeds’.

In the Greek and English grammar, it is He (singluar) who renders and his (singular) deeds. In English the case of pronouns must match the object’s case (which it does as written but would not match using a plural pronoun such as our/people). Additionally, and here’s the rub, in the Greek grammar not only does the case of each pronoun have to match it’s object but so does the mood.

You didn’t answer, what object matches the case and mood of the pronoun “his” in the sentence?

!!!!!
You're saying that Romans 2:5-8 refers to God's deeds????

Oh my. We're in an English class instead of a Faith class.
verse 5 ends with GOD
verse 6 starts with WHO

the who is referring to God
Who will render to every man according to HIS DEEDS.

You mean, you think the HIS is referring to God's deeds???

You mean, you think God is going to judge HIMSELF???

 

[JLB]

what DOES THE BIBLE SAY....?

let me say this one more time.......... i do not believe a true blue born again blood bought child of the king filled with the spirit connected to the TRUE VINE living with the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit -----------> WAS EVER SAVED that is my answer once again i hope this clarify s your question

Here are your words that I quoted.

You said as plain as day, again, that...i do not believe a true blue born again blood bought child of the king filled with the spirit connected to the TRUE VINE living with the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit -----------> WAS EVER SAVED


Again, same question:

Please explain how a born again, blood bought child of the king, filled with the Spirit was never saved?

A person who is born again and filled with the Spirit is certainly saved, yet you say they were never saved.

How can that be?






JLB

 

[JLB]

already did the original way i posted..

Here is what you said.

i do not believe a true blue born again blood bought child of the king filled with the spirit connected to the TRUE VINE living with the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit -----------> WAS EVER SAVED.


How can a person be born again, and filled with the Spirit, in which they are blood bought, not be saved.


If they are blood bought, then they are indeed purchased by His blood.

How can something be bought, yet not belong to the buyer?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I’ve already addressed your question.

Go ahead and refer to the post number where you answered this question.

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh?


Sorry if I overlooked it.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?

The born again Christian can indeed become lost.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

Since we have moved away from the Discussion of justification and sanctification
I started a thread about Sheep that become Lost.



http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/sheep-who-become-lost.73744/



JLB

 

[JLB]

ezra said: ↑
my self i am a know so salvation belief

Does this emoji indicate a "hope so salvation belief" on your part??

It indicates that I don’t understand what - my self i am a know so salvation belief,
means. That’s all.

It’s simply saying I don’t understand what is being conveyed.

Which is my fault. Not his.


JLB

 

[JLB]

A better question is why Paul would command believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and to STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Along with those commands, why did He command believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and to walk by means of the Spirit so that they would NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh (Gal 5:16)?


This certainly applies to those believers who seem not to understand Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19, Eph 5:18 and Gal 5:16.

That may very well be your question, but mine is still...

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.


Care to answer?



JLB

 

[JLB]

What I'd love to see is your explanation of HOW a born again Christian can perish, since Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.


Since Jesus gave NO EXCEPTIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing in John 10:28, if there are exceptions, why didn't He make that totally clear in John 10:28?

Here is who will receive eternal life, according to John 10:27, just a verse away from John 10:28.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

• Those who hear His Voice = which by definition means to hear and obey.

Which by context means to hear with the intent of following.

• Know Him = which is the biblical definition of eternal life. (see John 17:3) Means to be joined to as one. Intimate

• They follow Me = mean to walk closely with, and stay within the sound of ones voice so as to obey. Strong’s # 190

1. to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
2. to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
   

There’s a lot going on in verse 27, and makes for a good study.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?"

I recall a post that there was no interest in posting to or from me. Now this:

What saved you the first time?

Not a "what". But a :Who". God the Father saves those who believe in His Son. John 6:40

What good is it to post verses?

Those who don't understand the "good" of posting verses cannot possibly follow any of these threads. The forum rules require the posting of verses in order to show others WHY one makes the claims that they do.

You never answer to them even when I answer to yours.

Untrue.

And anyway, do you BELIEVE them?

This is a frivolous question. But, yes, of course I do. Why in the world would anyone post verses that they don't believe????

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:"This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?"

The born again Christian can indeed become lost.

There are zero verses that make this claim. Zero.

Further, Jesus made such an event impossible, because He made 3 very important points about one's security.

POINT 1: Jesus said that those who believe POSSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27.
POINT 2; Jesus gives the gift of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

If there is disagreement with these 3 points, please provide how any of them are incorrect and include verses that clearly indicate so.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"A better question is why Paul would command believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and to STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Along with those commands, why did He command believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and to walk by means of the Spirit so that they would NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh (Gal 5:16)?"

That may very well be your question, but mine is still...

And still...no answer to my question.

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.

Care to answer?
JLB

I did. By quoting the 2 verses that contained commands to STOP grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. Since a command to stop doing these things, it is obvious WHY a saved person would want to live to grafity the sinful desires of the flesh.

We all have a free will, to do what we want. When we are filled with the Spirit and walking by means of the Spirit, we are doing what God commands us to do.

But, when we grieve and/or quench the Spirit, we are doing what our sinful nature wants to do.

Which ANSWERS your question of why.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is who will receive eternal life, according to John 10:27, just a verse away from John 10:28.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Actually, not. v.27 is simply a general description of His followers. Anyone can see that there is no "conditions" for how to be one of His sheep.

However, we have that condition mentioned in John 10:9: I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

I think everyone will agree that to "be saved" means to possess eternal life.

So, does "whoever enters through Me (the gate)" mean something different from "believing in Him"?

 

[chessman]

I do find it amazing how you understand scripture differently from everyone else.

I don’t. I’m not everyone else.

What I find amazing, frankly unbelievable, is that you know how everyone else understands this passage.

Also, why do you always post links to biblegateway?

Because it is required by the ToS and copyright laws. When I copy the passage from their website/app, the link comes with it as Biblegateway’s copyrighted legal method of transmitting the Text. I wouldn’t let it bother you. Just ignore it.

Instead of worrying about the Greek so much, and using so many fancy words, why not just concentrate on the language we all understand?

Neither the English nor the Greek says ‘our deeds’ or ‘people’s deeds’, yet that’s what some have misquoted. It literally says “his deeds” in the same sentence where it refers to God as He. And again, the form of the pronoun matches to God.

I really am interested in what church you attend, but I don't think I'm allowed to ask...

Southern Baptist. Very southern!

 

[PeterJens]

Like all questions, OSAS or OSNAS are extremes of a position, centering on a concept of certainty.
If one says, an event exists that defines ones whole life and future and cannot by undone, this is
actually outside our experience. Take the idea of being born. It is a wonderful experience to welcome
in a new person to this world. But the experience can end, and the baby die.

Everything we see and do can be undone. If anything, nothing is permanent, especially not our influence
on the world.

24> For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25> but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you
1 Peter 1:24-25

Israel where taking out of Egypt yet many failed and died, others rebelled and were swallowed up by the earth.
How humble is the Lord? Who does He listen to?

12> For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
1 Peter 3:12

16> The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

Now the above sentiments suggest though people may experience and claim great exploits in God
if they do evil and are not righteous God will not listen to them.

14> Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
15> See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
Heb 12:14-15

The promise of the cross is the power to walk in righteousness and love, to fulfil the law.
Yet if those who carry the promises fail to exercise the promise and walk in His ways, have they
actually believed and become the Children of promise, or just stayed sinners with words.

Paul puts it like this,
20> But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.
21> Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22> Be merciful to those who doubt;
23> snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Jude 1:20-23

Some would argue in faith you enter a time freeze, which the Lord will go back to and save that individual
even if they become broken and empty later. But if this shows who they are, and the lack of depth of
their profession, why should we conclude it actually meant anything for them.

 

[PeterJens]

I don’t. I’m not everyone else.
What I find amazing, frankly unbelievable, is that you know how everyone else understands this passage.

Hi chessman,
I have yet to find a quotation from anyone who agrees with your interpretation of Rom 2:6

I am always interested in different views and I was hoping for some better support.
Now I understand those who hold to future sin forgiven, need to remove such texts as these
to be consistent. I am interested in the different views, because I want honestly to know Gods
heart as expressed in His word.

I remember feeling James was wrong about works etc. desiring proof of faith in actions.
What changed me, was realising, without actions any position is just words. What is more troubling is
the actions one does may actually mean one is a total hypocrite, and live a different life to the one one
professes.

A small example of this is how I love others.
I can say I love people, but in all my interactions do I care about who they are and how they are doing?
If I find I only have a superficial care, and when the opportunity comes to help, I shy away, and ignore it,
then maybe I am just flattering myself.

On forums I can say I testify to Christ, and am patient and understanding, yet if people oppose my position
do I react in anger and frustration, wondering how limited they are in not seeing my wisdom.

9> They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
1 Tim 3:9

5> The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5

15> Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16> keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
1 Peter 3:15-16

I have talked with believers, who most certainly failed to behave with gentleness and respect.
Again this causes me to wonder who they are following and why.

So what I am saying is the truth within is reflected how we behave without. So it is not unreasonable
to wonder if people claim so much but show nothing, what have they actually received?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi chessman,
I have yet to find a quotation from anyone who agrees with your interpretation of Rom 2:6

I am always interested in different views and I was hoping for some better support.
Now I understand those who hold to future sin forgiven, need to remove such texts as these
to be consistent. I am interested in the different views, because I want honestly to know Gods
heart as expressed in His word.

I remember feeling James was wrong about works etc. desiring proof of faith in actions.
What changed me, was realising, without actions any position is just words. What is more troubling is
the actions one does may actually mean one is a total hypocrite, and live a different life to the one one
professes.

A small example of this is how I love others.
I can say I love people, but in all my interactions do I care about who they are and how they are doing?
If I find I only have a superficial care, and when the opportunity comes to help, I shy away, and ignore it,
then maybe I am just flattering myself.

On forums I can say I testify to Christ, and am patient and understanding, yet if people oppose my position
do I react in anger and frustration, wondering how limited they are in not seeing my wisdom.

9> They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
1 Tim 3:9

5> The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5

15> Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16> keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
1 Peter 3:15-16

I have talked with believers, who most certainly failed to behave with gentleness and respect.
Again this causes me to wonder who they are following and why.

So what I am saying is the truth within is reflected how we behave without. So it is not unreasonable
to wonder if people claim so much but show nothing, what have they actually received?