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Justification and Sanctification

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Thanks for acknowledging the weakness of your position; it is just your opinion. My focus is on what Scripture says, which is why I quote Scripture. That's not opinion; it's the Truth.

And the verses don't "imply" anything. They DIRECTLY STATE that salvation is by faith.
Dear Mcoop, could I have your views on Dr MacArthur's stunning sermon on Saved or Self-deceived, the link for which I have provided. I am in complete agreement with Dr MacArthur's views , though I must confess it ruffled the feathers of many Churches who were teaching doctrine of "easy believism" . I believe the Truths of the Bible are far deeper than that being mostly taught in contemporary church teachings ( not all though , I will not generalize ). My one advise to fellow brothers and sisters would be to thoroughly, thoroughly examine the Red letter words of our Lord Jesus , and then move on to study the rest of the NT. I believe we can see the teachings of the others NT writers in a NEW light. Just a friendly advise . No one has to follow it. But it gave me a brand new perspective on NT message when I did that ---- read several times the red lettered words if the Lord first
 
free will is NOT SILLY . if you wish to discuss calvinism start a NEW thread
You mean the gospel according to God’s grace? Well it’s pretty much denied by most on this forum. Straddling both sides only brings confusion
 
Dear Mcoop, could I have your views on Dr MacArthur's stunning sermon on Saved or Self-deceived, the link for which I have provided. I am in complete agreement with Dr MacArthur's views , though I must confess it ruffled the feathers of many Churches who were teaching doctrine of "easy believism" . I believe the Truths of the Bible are far deeper than that being mostly taught in contemporary church teachings ( not all though , I will not generalize ). My one advise to fellow brothers and sisters would be to thoroughly, thoroughly examine the Red letter words of our Lord Jesus , and then move on to study the rest of the NT. I believe we can see the teachings of the others NT writers in a NEW light. Just a friendly advise . No one has to follow it. But it gave me a brand new perspective on NT message when I did that ---- read several times the red lettered words if the Lord first
I have no disagreements with that sermon. But your view of Johns beliefs are completely wrong. Study and search out what he believes
 
I have no disagreements with that sermon. But your view of Johns beliefs are completely wrong. Study and search out what he believes
Perhaps this is the most tragic text in all the Bible. The reality is there will be people one day who stand before the Lord, many of them, who will assume that they are about to enter heaven only to be told they’re on their way to hell. This is the worst possible illusion that someone can have, to be mistaken about your eternal destiny, to be mistaken about your salvation.
I’m often asked the question, “Are Roman Catholics Christians?” And I would pose this question, “Are Protestants naturally or always Christians?”How about another question, “Are evangelicals necessarily Christians?” But a more importantquestion than any of those is, “Are you a Christian?” Could be that you’re among the many who are self-deceived . You’re not alone. I am convinced that in thename of Christianity there are manyplaces that call themselves churches andthey’re not churches. And they have menleading them who call themselves pastorsand they’re not pastors. And they have congregations who call themselvesChristians and they are not Christians.They’re not churches, they’re not pastors, and they’re not Christians and yet theyproudly post the label Christian.
 
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Can a saved person in heaven have the ability to sin in heaven according to free will logic?

32> Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33> "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Matt 12:32-33

Jesus talks about the sin that will not be forgiven in this age or the one to come.
This implies that there will be sin in the age to come, but it can be forgiven.
I have read from this free will is part of eternity, which is also part of love. You cannot
love without the potential of being hurt and taking risks.
 
Dear Mcoop, could I have your views on Dr MacArthur's stunning sermon on Saved or Self-deceived, the link for which I have provided. I am in complete agreement with Dr MacArthur's views , though I must confess it ruffled the feathers of many Churches who were teaching doctrine of "easy believism" . I believe the Truths of the Bible are far deeper than that being mostly taught in contemporary church teachings ( not all though , I will not generalize ). My one advise to fellow brothers and sisters would be to thoroughly, thoroughly examine the Red letter words of our Lord Jesus , and then move on to study the rest of the NT. I believe we can see the teachings of the others NT writers in a NEW light. Just a friendly advise . No one has to follow it. But it gave me a brand new perspective on NT message when I did that ---- read several times the red lettered words if the Lord first
:salute
 
1st, excellent point.
2nd, had Jesus risen from the dead yet in the age of His speaking the truth of Matt 12:32-33?

Hi chessman,
For me, we are still in the same age as Jesus was in.
I am sure some dispensationalists will suggest he was talking about the church age.

This touches on the issues of shadows and seeing things that do not matter to us, but are just hinted
at.

Where some of this does impinge back to the present day, is what is the goal of sanctification and its
limits? If we hold we are sinners who can never walk like Jesus because of inherited sin from Adam,
then this is part of the resurrection change.
If we hold we are able through our walk and purification of the heart, find true holiness and righteousness
in our walk and oneness with Christ, then the Kingdom of Heaven is not so different from what we experience
in our walk with Jesus now.

It was questions in regard to this that made me wonder why Paul regards the church of believers as being
Holy, and we are called to live a Holy life. Putting this into context this is Paul speaking

3> But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
4> Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5> For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:3-5

So there is an example here, but who agrees with Paul, or was Paul talking about a different age and
time, with just a cultural context, which now we can ignore.

This was raised because some believers were defending obscenities from believers and preachers, as
if this had a role rather than reflecting something not of the Lord.
 
Dear Mcoop, could I have your views on Dr MacArthur's stunning sermon on Saved or Self-deceived, the link for which I have provided. I am in complete agreement with Dr MacArthur's views , though I must confess it ruffled the feathers of many Churches who were teaching doctrine of "easy believism" . I believe the Truths of the Bible are far deeper than that being mostly taught in contemporary church teachings ( not all though , I will not generalize ). My one advise to fellow brothers and sisters would be to thoroughly, thoroughly examine the Red letter words of our Lord Jesus , and then move on to study the rest of the NT. I believe we can see the teachings of the others NT writers in a NEW light. Just a friendly advise . No one has to follow it. But it gave me a brand new perspective on NT message when I did that ---- read several times the red lettered words if the Lord first

Amen. Jesus is the foundation stone, His words are eternal, which is easily missed by some.
 
Jesus had 2 natures; a human nature and a divine nature as God.

His human nature could sin, but not His divine nature.

The Romans had a phrase for this:
poci non pocari, non poci pocari, which translated means:
able not to sin, not able to sin.

Hi Free, You raise an interesting point. Is it impossible for God to sin, to be evil, unjust, unfair, unrighteous?

My experience of God is not that it is impossible for God to sin, it is that He chooses not to.
He proved the point, that when as a man, everything was before Him, He chose not to sin, though He was just
like us.

God could have left us alone, in our lostness, and said we could never learn to walk righteously, we are forever
flawed, unable to have communion and fellowship with Him. But I see God said, no, my essence is stronger than
sin, able to be weak, humble, stripped of everything and still walk blamelessly without sin. In so doing our guilt
was shown, our lostness chosen by ourselves, in ignorance and confusion, but still chosen.

Now if one feels the divide between Gods nature and our nature is impossible to bridge, that God provides a
new eternal spirit within us that is perfect, and the flesh is sinful and flawed, one ends up with a gnostic gospel
and a dualistic morality. We are not guilty of sin, only our flesh, but we are spirit.

Theologically this is no minor point or in our walk. Holding the gnostic view there is no point in a holy walk,
because until we are transformed our flesh will always compromise, and our eternal perfect spirit will always
battle with it, until the Kingdom comes. My view is this is not a christian belief, and does not have the victory
of the cross at its centre, and was created by Augustine in the 4th century, and preached by Calvin etc at the
reformation. One can see repentance and confession of sin becomes meaningless, because the sin is just
the flesh.

I have met alcoholics and drug addicts whole relate to this view of life, because their addiction works like this.

Paul though says we have victory in the Spirit, and are slaves to righteousness, if we sow to the Spirit and eternal
life.

16> Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17> But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
18> You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness
Romans 6:16-18

To be a slave to righteousness literally means we have overcome the passions of the flesh, Amen.

24> Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
25> Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Galatians 5:24-25

12> It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13> while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14> who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Titus 2:12-14
 
Perhaps this is the most tragic text in all the Bible. The reality is there will be people one day who stand before the Lord, many of them, who will assume that they are about to enter heaven only to be told they’re on their way to hell. This is the worst possible illusion that someone can have, to be mistaken about your eternal destiny, to be mistaken about your salvation.
I’m often asked the question, “Are Roman Catholics Christians?” And I would pose this question, “Are Protestants naturally or always Christians?”How about another question, “Are evangelicals necessarily Christians?” But a more importantquestion than any of those is, “Are you a Christian?” Could be that you’re among the many who are self-deceived . You’re not alone. I am convinced that in thename of Christianity there are manyplaces that call themselves churches andthey’re not churches. And they have menleading them who call themselves pastorsand they’re not pastors. And they have congregations who call themselvesChristians and they are not Christians.They’re not churches, they’re not pastors, and they’re not Christians and yet theyproudly post the label Christian.
Self deceived professors ARE NOT saved and never were, is John M whole point.
 
"FreeGrace said:
Thanks for acknowledging the weakness of your position; it is just your opinion. My focus is on what Scripture says, which is why I quote Scripture. That's not opinion; it's the Truth.

And the verses don't "imply" anything. They DIRECTLY STATE that salvation is by faith."
Dear Mcoop, could I have your views on Dr MacArthur's stunning sermon on Saved or Self-deceived, the link for which I have provided.
I am not Mcoop.

I am in complete agreement with Dr MacArthur's views
I am not. But I thought your views were that salvation is by faith plus works. Did I miss something?
 
Amen. Jesus is the foundation stone, His words are eternal, which is easily missed by some.
Including His words on eternal security in John 10:28. Those He gives eternal life, which is when one believes, per John 3:15,16,36,5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27, shall never perish.

Never means exactly that; never.
 
For me, we are still in the same age as Jesus was in.
Well the Messiah had certainly come at the Matt 12 age. But the Messiah had not risen.


If we hold we are able through our walk and purification of the heart, find true holiness and righteousness
in our walk and oneness with Christ, then the Kingdom of Heaven is not so different from what we experience
in our walk with Jesus now.
I see a substantial difference in our walking in our old flesh (yet with a renewed mind/spirit/soul) and our walking in our post-resurrection new flesh (to go along with our new minds/spirits).

Anyway, the question of the potential for our sinning in the New Earth has always intrigued me. I don’t have a definitive answer. Studying....
And I’ve listened to a lot of apologists address the question.

I just thought your passage certainly gives someone a Scripture to throw in the mix.

Another thought:

If a Christian is alive at His return, that Christian will get a new body, right? He/she will still be “changed” in the blink of an eye.

For this decayable body must put-on undecayability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. And when this decayable body puts-on undecayability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying having been written will come-about: “Death was swallowed-up in victory” [Isa 25:8]. “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your stinger?” [Hos 13:14]. Now the stinger of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.
1 Corinthians 15:53-56 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:53-56&version=DLNT

If there’s a Christian alive that has, what did you say ... found true holiness and righteousness ... why the need for further change?
 
Hi Free, You raise an interesting point. Is it impossible for God to sin, to be evil, unjust, unfair, unrighteous?
Of course it is impossible for such a thing. The Bible describes Him as Holy.

My experience of God is not that it is impossible for God to sin, it is that He chooses not to.
Please explain how any kind of "experience" could lead anyone to such a conclusion?

He proved the point, that when as a man, everything was before Him, He chose not to sin, though He was just
like us.
I always hope and expect that when one replies to my comments, they will have at least read what I posted. <sigh> But such seems not the case. I noted that His humanity could sin, but His Deity could not sin.
 
Of course it is impossible for such a thing. The Bible describes Him as Holy.
Please explain how any kind of "experience" could lead anyone to such a conclusion?
I always hope and expect that when one replies to my comments, they will have at least read what I posted. <sigh> But such seems not the case. I noted that His humanity could sin, but His Deity could not sin.

Hi Free,
God can choose to keep His word or break it. Who is there to dispute what He meant or how He meant
it other than Himself. He provides conditional promises all the time, and calls His people to follow, obey,
love, care, learn, grow, be transformed, minister, give, sacrifice.
The phrase in Matt 7 "Lord Lord" implies a group think they know the Lord well, but He tells them
He never knew them.

Scripture is full humble believers who do good things in the Lords name, and He listens and rewards them.
Paul encourages us to live likewise as part of working out our salvation. Like God we can choose to be
annoyed, angry, vengeful, rebellious, or loving, kind and graceful. In this time we are called to be only loving,
and God will repay people for what they have done at the appropriate time.

11> The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
12> I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."
13> Moses said to the LORD, "Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them.
14> And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD, are with these people and that you, O LORD, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
15> If you put these people to death all at one time, the nations who have heard this report about you will say,
16> 'The LORD was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert.'
Numbers 14:11-16

30> For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31> It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:30-31
 
If there’s a Christian alive that has, what did you say ... found true holiness and righteousness ... why the need for further change?

This is an interesting question. Paul answers it like this

1> Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2> Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
3> because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4> For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2 Corinthians 5:1-4

Our bodies are mortal and must be changed into the immortal heavenly dwelling.
So the picture he is painting of immortality being a physical thing, rather than a Holy thing.
Paul has already described our mortal bodies as Holy temples of the Holy Spirit.
Once this is declared, one could not then declare they are actually unholy, only the heavenly body
is Holy.

To balance this is this phrase
22> But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23> gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24> Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25> If we live by the Spirit, let us also behave in accordance with the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-25

We are given the promise that we can put to death the passions and desires of the flesh.
So this all indicates a promise of victory rather than continuing defeat.
 

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