Forum Poll

[GodsGrace]

Does this mean that the Holy Spirit accompanies you to hell??

FreeGrace has said that one could live a life of sin and still be saved.
This cannot be true since God demands that we obey Him.

This is a horrible twisting of what I've said. By leaving out an important fact. Any believer who does live a life of sin will be punished for it, including pain on earth (Heb 12:11) and loss of eternal reward. Please don't leave out important parts of what I say. It's very misleading and not at all honest.

He always has, from the time of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:17
And they disobeyed, and they died spiritually.
Just like we would die spiritually if we turned from God.[/QUOTE]
How can a born again person die spiritually? Please follow forum rules and provide clear support from Scripture for these claims.


Let's consider the actual context, ok?

v.12a - if we endure, we will also reign with him.

So, the context for v.12a is to "reign with Him". That's NOT the same as saying "will live with Him". To reign is to share in His Kingship. It's a reward for enduring. Rewards are EARNED, unlike salvation, which is by grace.

We find the same principle in Rom 8:17b - co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So, to "endure" from 2 Tim 2:12 means the same thing as to "share in His sufferings" in Rom 8:17b.

Now, 2 Tim 12:b - If we disown him, he will also disown us;

The Greek word fo "disown" is: NT:720 arneomai (ar-neh'-om-ahee); perhaps from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and the middle voice of NT:4483; to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:
KJV - deny, refuse.

At www.biblehub.com, 24 of the 28 English translations given have "deny". I don't think all those scholars were misinformed.

So, what v.12 is obviously saying is that if believers endure in the faith, they WILL reign with Christ, a reward for faithfulness, BUT, if they fail to endure in the faith, they will be denied the privilege or reward of reigning with Him.


Hardly. v.13 is another verse stating eternal security. How can God the Father deny entrance to any believer who has the Holy Spirit in them?

Remember what Rom 8:16 says: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

So, to whom does the Spirit testify that we (believers) are God's children? God the Father, that's who.

And those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them cannot be lost. Because God cannot deny Himself.

So v.13 is equally important along with v.12.[/QUOTE]
No. A "believer" who lives a life of sin will not lose rewards, he will lose heaven.
Those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling will not be lost. Endure, from 2 Timothy 2:12 means to have faith until the end.

When a biblical principal is distorted, it is then necessary to distort words and verses. Deny means deny. We don't need the Greek for this.

Please reply to all the verses I've given you.
All the following verses show that there are conditions to being saved.
Please explain them if you don't agree.:

There are conditions, as I've quoted before.
Mathew 25:34-46
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:48
Mathew 7:23
John 14:15
John 5:28-29

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace
Please answer this simple question:
Is it possible for a " born again " believer who lives a life of sin and behaves in all the ways Paul warns us NOT to behave, to still be saved because he accepted Jesus at some point in his life?

I do believe you answered yes to this question, if not, please take the opportunity to set us all straight.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

And people can be sincerely wrong.

The view that salvation can be lost is directly refuted by Jesus, who said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Now, THAT is profound!!

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28


This verse in and of itself would seem to the casual observer, that the one who receives eternal life will never perish.

A closer look at what our Lord promised and who He promised it to, together with the context, seems to show us something more.


25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:25-28


Hearing and following seems to be the key to receiving eternal life, which if one is required to hear and follow, then the promise would of necessity to be given at the end of the hearing and following, which like Wondering said requires faith; a continuing faith to the end.


Just my two cents.




ME

 

[chessman]

You said it was a misunderstood passage to think the saying was pertaining to salvation

if THEY are unfaithful, God will remain faithful (to their salvation).

So in your opinion it’s a misunderstanding to view Christ’s faithfulness as pertaining to our salvation but in His denial it does pertain to salvation??? All within the very same trustworthy saying???

I sense an exegetical problem here.

Deny us before the Father.
See Mathew 10:33

Umm, Matt 10:33 isn’t being quoted in 2 Tim 2. I asked for what Paul meant in the 2 Tim 2 passage which you claimed was being misunderstood there. Can you not explain the misunderstanding from within the conext of 2 Tim 2?

If Jesus denies us to the Father, it means we will not be saved. We must not be denied by Him to the Father in order to be saved.

Who’s we? Jesus wasn’t talking about “we” in Matt 10:33. He was talking about the people of the world:

“Everyone therefore who will confess Me in front of people, I also will confess him in front of My Father in the heavens.​

Matthew 10:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:32&version=DLNT

Would you like to try again from what Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Tim 2, to explain how one portion of the trustworthy saying IS about salvation, yet other parts are NOT about salvation?

 

[chessman]

Hearing and following seems to be the key to receiving eternal life,

How key is the giving of sheep by The Father to His Son, in your opinion?

 

[GodsGrace]

You said it was a misunderstood passage to think the saying was pertaining to salvation

So in your opinion it’s a misunderstanding to view Christ’s faithfulness as pertaining to our salvation but in His denial it does pertain to salvation??? All within the very same trustworthy saying???

I sense an exegetical problem here.


Umm, Matt 10:33 isn’t being quoted in 2 Tim 2. I asked for what Paul meant in the 2 Tim 2 passage which you claimed was being misunderstood there. Can you not explain the misunderstanding from within the conext of 2 Tim 2?


Who’s we? Jesus wasn’t talking about “we” in Matt 10:33. He was talking about the people of the world:

“Everyone therefore who will confess Me in front of people, I also will confess him in front of My Father in the heavens.​

Matthew 10:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:32&version=DLNT

Would you like to try again from what Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Tim 2, to explain how one portion of the trustworthy saying IS about salvation, yet other parts are NOT about salvation?

Verse 13 is speaking about how God must remain true to Himself and the plan He has to save those who will be saved.
Verse 12 is referring to jesus' denying those who deny Him in front of the Father which means that person will not be saved since it's Jesus who saves and judges.
John 5:26-28

 

[GodsGrace]

You said it was a misunderstood passage to think the saying was pertaining to salvation

So in your opinion it’s a misunderstanding to view Christ’s faithfulness as pertaining to our salvation but in His denial it does pertain to salvation??? All within the very same trustworthy saying???

I sense an exegetical problem here.


Umm, Matt 10:33 isn’t being quoted in 2 Tim 2. I asked for what Paul meant in the 2 Tim 2 passage which you claimed was being misunderstood there. Can you not explain the misunderstanding from within the conext of 2 Tim 2?


Who’s we? Jesus wasn’t talking about “we” in Matt 10:33. He was talking about the people of the world:

“Everyone therefore who will confess Me in front of people, I also will confess him in front of My Father in the heavens.​

Matthew 10:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:32&version=DLNT

Would you like to try again from what Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Tim 2, to explain how one portion of the trustworthy saying IS about salvation, yet other parts are NOT about salvation?

P.S.
In Mathew 10:33jesus was talking about Whoever denies Him.

 

[chessman]

Verse 13 is speaking about how God must remain true to Himself and the plan He has to save those who will be saved.
Verse 12 is referring to jesus' denying those who deny Him in front of the Father which means that person will not be saved since it's Jesus who saves and judges.
John 5:26-28

V11-13 is literally one sentence written to Timothy so Timothy could trust on what it said. Is it about salvation, in your opinion, yes or no?

P.S.
In Mathew 10:33jesus was talking about Whoever denies Him.

I know, that’s my point. He’s talking about all the people in the world (everyone) being divided/separated over Him.

“Everyone therefore who will confess Me in front of people, I also will confess him in front of My Father in the heavens.​

Matthew 10:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:32&version=DLNT

But what about those people that haven’t confessed Jesus??? See v33. Timothy had confessed Jesus. You are mixing apples and oranges (sheep and goats) by even jumping contexts in the first place.

 

[GodsGrace]

V11-13 is literally one sentence written to Timothy so Timothy could trust on what it said. Is it about salvation, in your opinion, yes or no?


I know, that’s my point. He’s talking about all the people in the world (everyone) being divided/separated over Him.

“Everyone therefore who will confess Me in front of people, I also will confess him in front of My Father in the heavens.​

Matthew 10:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:32&version=DLNT

But what about those people that haven’t confessed Jesus??? See v33. Timothy had confessed Jesus. You are mixing apples and oranges (sheep and goats) by even jumping contexts in the first place.

The entire NT was written so that we might be saved.
This does not mean that every verse is about salvation.
Verse 13 is theological...about the nature of God.

I'm not mixing fruit.
Those who acknowledge Christ will be acknowledged before the Father, those who don't acknowledge christ will be denied in front of the Father.

Whenever that denial happens, before or after salvation.

Please exegete 2 Timothy 2:12-13 if you don't agree.
You have as yet to explain it.

 

[maplegoat]

A born again Christian cannot reject Christ, otherwise they would not be a born again Christian.

They can fall from the faith. But that doesn't mean Jesus lets them go. The idea of having to work to keep our salvation misses the mark completely as to the content of the Gospel itself.
It imparts we have something to do with the whole package. And that we can choose to know more than God who we are told knew us first. Those that would accept his son.
Basically, the teaching that refutes eternal salvation is the Devil's new tactic when he failed to tempt Jesus during his fast in the wilderness. Now the Devil is trying to lead the faithful in Christ to think they're co-creators of their salvation and also co-creators of altering God's plan for eternal salvation.
Paul wrote that God's gifts and calling, which is eternal salvation, are irrevocable. That means they are predestined and unalterable. And since the power of God made that covenant we the lesser beings can certainly not overcome his will since his will began in this covenant of eternal salvation before he created anything at all.
Romans 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

The enemy of that God given fact wants us to believe in him. And to live as if we're not truly secure in Chirst. That we can do something, sin, and lose it all. That's not what God said. And that's not why his only begotten son died.

Satan for as long as he is alive will work to make people believe his anti-gospel. Christians don't fall for that. Pun. Notice the pun? Jakob Hermanszoon,the father of Arminianism was a tool of the enemy of righteousness and eternal salvation's truth. When we know the enemy by name it is easy to recognize what beckons to disbelieve.

 

[chessman]

His plan from the beginning of the world does not change just because someone lost faith in Him.

I’m simply trying to find consistent exegesis in your claims about the passage from 2 Tim 2 in the post quoted above .

For example, some type of explanation of just how one portion of the passage is NOT about salvation of the elect, yet another portion of it IS seems inconsistent. Your claim that the denial statement is a teaching about the denial of salvation to an elect person doesn’t fit into the context. Nor into “the plan”.

The entire NT was written so that we might be saved.

God’s elect were being saved long before the writing of the entire NT. Do you think Paul needed the writing of Revelation to be saved?

Please exegete 2 Timothy 2:12-13 if you don't agree.
You have as yet to explain it.

I’m simply asking for your reasons for claiming the denial phrase snip IS about denying salvation to an elect person (from this context) yet our faithlessness and His faithfulness is NOT about about an elect person’s salvation. When it’s literally the same sentence.

You haven’t asked me for my exegesis until now. Will you first explain how; “if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us” is about the loss of an elect’s salvation yet “if we are faithless, that One remains faithful,” is NOT about the elect’s salvation?

The saying is trustworthy—

for if we died-with Him, we will also live-with Him;​

if we are enduring, we will also reign-with Him;​

if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us; ​

if we are faithless, that One remains faithful, ​

for He cannot deny Himself.​

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:11-13&version=DLNT

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m simply trying to find consistent exegesis in your claims about the passage from 2 Tim 2 in the post quoted above .

For example, some type of explanation of just how one portion of the passage is NOT about salvation of the elect, yet another portion of it IS seems inconsistent. Your claim that the denial statement is a teaching about the denial of salvation to an elect person doesn’t fit into the context. Nor into “the plan”.


God’s elect were being saved long before the writing of the entire NT. Do you think Paul needed the writing of Revelation to be saved?


I’m simply asking for your reasons for claiming the denial phrase snip IS about denying salvation to an elect person (from this context) yet our faithlessness and His faithfulness is NOT about about an elect person’s salvation. When it’s literally the same sentence.

You haven’t asked me for my exegesis until now. Will you first explain how; “if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us” is about the loss of an elect’s salvation yet “if we are faithless, that One remains faithful,” is NOT about the elect’s salvation?

The saying is trustworthy—

for if we died-with Him, we will also live-with Him;​

if we are enduring, we will also reign-with Him;​

if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us; ​

if we are faithless, that One remains faithful, ​

for He cannot deny Himself.​

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:11-13&version=DLNT

As I've said and explained, "for He cannot deny Himself" is the key.
I'm on a tablet right now and am limited.
Do you believe in Calvinism?
You speak of the elect.

 

[chessman]

You speak of the elect.

Because that’s who Paul was enduring hardship for, in context:

For this reason, I am enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, in order that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

2 Timothy 2:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:10&version=DLNT

"for He cannot deny Himself" is the key.

Exactly. The whole reason He remains faithful when we who are chosen, who are “in Christ”, and have died with Him, do not remain faithful at times is because He cannot deny Himself!

Are you a Calvinist?

 

[GodsGrace]

Because that’s who Paul was enduring hardship for, in context:

For this reason, I am enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, in order that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

2 Timothy 2:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:10&version=DLNT


Exactly. The whole reason He remains faithful when we who are chosen, who are “in Christ”, and have died with Him, do not remain faithful at times is because He cannot deny Himself!

Are you a Calvinist?

No!
What do you mean by "we do not remain faithful at times"?
We don't go in and out of faith. That's yo yo Christianity.
Are you speaking of sinning?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I agree. The Holy Spirit will never leave me.
But what if I turn to a life of sin?
FreeGrace has said that one could live a life of sin and still be saved.
This cannot be true since God demands that we obey Him. He always has, from the time of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:17
And they disobeyed, and they died spiritually.
Just like we would die spiritually if we turned from God.

Also 2 Timothy 2:12b speaks to this....IF we ENDURE, we shall also reign with Him,
IF we DENY Him, He will deny us. The denial can happen before salvation or after salvation...if is STILL denial.

(verse 13 is misunderstood and does not apply to this conversation)

Amen sister Wondering. The entire theme of Bible revolves around God's love and human disobedience. How long will it take for us humans to understand the simple message and expectation of God from us ------Love ALL, and choose God's will over ours.
Why is it so difficult to understand a straightforward expectation of God from us? All we do is throw scriptures at each other in the hope of avoiding to do God's will and yet be sure of salvation. That's absolutely not going to happen .....Matthew 7:21-24
Guys no God's will, no heaven,
And NO LOVE again NO HEAVEN
remember dear friends Christ's grace and righteousness is imputed only to those believers who are willing to pick up their cross , deny their flesh and follow the Lord ( Luke 9 :23). Even the incomplete verse FG keeps quoting 14:28 is PRECEDED by the words " who follow me". The sheep who fail to follow Jesus will most certainly be snatched out of His hands and have the huge possibility of being cast into hell. Just by uttering with mouth " I believe in Jesus " means ZERO for salvation. It's like a young wanna be doctor declares I believe I'm a doctor! Does he become one instantly? No he doesn't. He has to go almost through a ten year rigorous training before he is able to become a doctor. This easy believism doctrine is evil and all who propogate and follow it have in my opinion set themselves up for severe judgment on the day of the Lord. I shudder to think what will happen to such believers and especially those who teach this HERESY. May God have mercy on them......

 

[chessman]

What do you mean by "we do not remain faithful at times"?

I mean what Paul meant. At times when we have less trust in Him (it’s a trustworthy statement after all), He remains faithful.

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean what Paul meant. At times when we have less trust in Him (it’s a trustworthy statement after all), He remains faithful.

Having less trust, is different from not remaining faithful.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Triviality.
A prerequisite on Christian forums.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen sister Wondering. The entire theme of Bible revolves around God's love and human disobedience. How long will it take for us humans to understand the simple message and expectation of God from us ------Love ALL, and choose God's will over ours.
Why is it so difficult to understand a straightforward expectation of God from us? All we do is throw scriptures at each other in the hope of avoiding to do God's will and yet be sure of salvation. That's absolutely not going to happen .....Matthew 7:21-24
Guys no God's will, no heaven,
And NO LOVE again NO HEAVEN
remember dear friends Christ's grace and righteousness is imputed only to those believers who are willing to pick up their cross , deny their flesh and follow the Lord ( Luke 9 :23). Even the incomplete verse FG keeps quoting 14:28 is PRECEDED by the words " who follow me". The sheep who fail to follow Jesus will most certainly be snatched out of His hands and have the huge possibility of being cast into hell. Just by uttering with mouth " I believe in Jesus " means ZERO for salvation. It's like a young wanna be doctor declares I believe I'm a doctor! Does he become one instantly? No he doesn't. He has to go almost through a ten year rigorous training before he is able to become a doctor. This easy believism doctrine is evil and all who propogate and follow it have in my opinion set themselves up for severe judgment on the day of the Lord. I shudder to think what will happen to such believers and especially those who teach this HERESY. May God have mercy on them......

Needless to say, I agree with all you've said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Triviality.
A prerequisite on Christian forums.

To whom are you speaking?