FreeGrace already dealt with this. The is IF Is A first class condition. They POSSESS the gospel. They believed. The "if" is not the third class, and Paul saying "maybe you will, maybe you wont possess that word." Simple, It reads," You are saved if you posses that word and you do.".........unless one wants to try to put their theology into it.
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- Thread starter JLB
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And This type of "love" is synonymous with being filled with the Spirit. We cannot follow this verse apart from being saved and being filled with the Spirit. It is a type of love that we do not know apart from being filled with the Spirit. And Unbeliever's or even a believer out of fellowship cannot have this love.
Interesting how this works. "come only means come."
But when it comes to "believe only means believe." Hold on there partner!
Belief means:
Obey.
come.
follow.
works.
fruit.
being nice.
being sweet.
being moral.
following the rules.
quitting habits.
quitting sin.
being holy.
And on and on and on and on.
John 3:16.
Acts 16:31..........believe it and you are SAVED.
Jim Parker
Member
Yeah.
Paul's not talking about "possessing the Gospel."
He's talking about actually doing what the Gospel teaches.
Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.
Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)
Ex. “if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)
Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)
It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.
COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
It follows logically that if one does NOT “CONTINUE IN (HIS) FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.
Paul says the same at 1Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF YOU HOLD FAST THAT WORD WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU—unless you believed in vain.
If you hold fast to the word (condition) then you will be saved. (outcome)
HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.
The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition is: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.
2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,
The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality.
2 PE 2:15a They have forsaken the right way and gone astray,…
2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
This is a reference to “saved” people who have left the faith and returned to their old ways of which the end is destruction. They were once saved and now they are not. They once had the gift of eternal life and they had discarded it.
EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”
In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated.
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
what do you think Jesus meant when he said the following words in red below ( luke 14: 26----- why is Christ LAYING down rules for salvation here (if you're not his disciple you cannot be saved) Easy believism only teaches to " just believe and you're saved" But isn't Jesus saying saying something substantially different. And if you agree that he is, then could you please tell me why? :
Luke 14:26 ►
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
Why doesn't any "easy believeism" doctrine[ saved forever when you believe] believer reply? have we become PAULIANS instead of Christians?
I quote again words of Lord Jesus, the Messiah, God, and master of ours, not Paul the servant
Luke 14:26 ►
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."
My question is straightforward and does NOT hide behind Paul's words : Why is Christ NOT asking us to just believe? why all this above REQUIREMENTS ( also) for salvation? Please do NOT quote pauls words when you choose to reply. Christ hopefully was greater than His servant and knew what he was talking. I strongly believe paul's words were grossly ( mis) used to teach the heresy of easy believism doctrine. if it were so easy Jesus Himself would have never uttered the above words ( and much more). remember the words devil (mis)used were from scripture when he tested / tempted Christ
( Matthew 4: 5-7)
5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”
--------------------------x--------------------------------x-----------------------------------------------x-------------
as the enemy used the scripture to deceive Jesus, many of Paul's words are being used( by devil?) to DECEIVE the people ( and brethren). be careful! I believe easy believeism doctrine is from the devil--- he wanted us to believe but not obey just like him and his evil gang of demons--- they all believe in Christ's deity but do NOT obey. Easy believeism was never the teaching of Christ and is being used to deceive people into thinking obedience plays no part in human salvation. As I write this hundreds of millions are being taught this false doctrine every day. I BEG YOU to obey also( not just believe) . how can THAT be heresy? I am begging y'all /\ to believe and obey the son of God-- Christ Jesus, that's all
Luke 4:41 ►
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting ( to Christ), "You are the Son of God!" But Jesus rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they( demons) knew Jesus was the Messiah.
I quote again words of Lord Jesus, the Messiah, God, and master of ours, not Paul the servant
Luke 14:26 ►
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."
My question is straightforward and does NOT hide behind Paul's words : Why is Christ NOT asking us to just believe? why all this above REQUIREMENTS ( also) for salvation? Please do NOT quote pauls words when you choose to reply. Christ hopefully was greater than His servant and knew what he was talking. I strongly believe paul's words were grossly ( mis) used to teach the heresy of easy believism doctrine. if it were so easy Jesus Himself would have never uttered the above words ( and much more). remember the words devil (mis)used were from scripture when he tested / tempted Christ
( Matthew 4: 5-7)
5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”
--------------------------x--------------------------------x-----------------------------------------------x-------------
as the enemy used the scripture to deceive Jesus, many of Paul's words are being used( by devil?) to DECEIVE the people ( and brethren). be careful! I believe easy believeism doctrine is from the devil--- he wanted us to believe but not obey just like him and his evil gang of demons--- they all believe in Christ's deity but do NOT obey. Easy believeism was never the teaching of Christ and is being used to deceive people into thinking obedience plays no part in human salvation. As I write this hundreds of millions are being taught this false doctrine every day. I BEG YOU to obey also( not just believe) . how can THAT be heresy? I am begging y'all /\ to believe and obey the son of God-- Christ Jesus, that's all
Luke 4:41 ►
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting ( to Christ), "You are the Son of God!" But Jesus rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they( demons) knew Jesus was the Messiah.
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chessman
Member
What leads you to believe that “Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die”, since the passage referenced says nothing about death?
chessman
Member
The 'position' taken by your pup (in your Avatar) isn't a bad idea (ideology) either. "Chill child"
Matt 9:21 (DLNT) For she was saying within herself, “If I only touch His garment, I will be restored”. 22 But Jesus, having turned and having seen her, said, “Take-courage, daughter. Your faith has restored you”. And the woman was restored from that hour.
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Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?
No we cannot still be saved. If I were still saved, I wouldn’t reject Jesus, but I am.
I know full well what I’m doing and I continue to do it willingly and unrepentantly.
Not only that, but I’m constantly furious with him. I tell him he is a horrible god and how he has the nerve to shift the blame on this “supposed” sin no one can see. Apparently any sort of action done without faith in God it is sin for him/her.
Not only that, but do I look like Eve? Is my name Eve? Was I given the chance to make my own choice cause he damb well kniws therecwould or could have been a woman who didn’t, so she doesn’t speak for me and I shouldn’t be cursed for something I never did!!!! Believe me, I argue and get so angry at god that I tell him to get down here so i can punch him in the face!!! The nerve of him!!!!! I didn’t askef to be here, my mom aborted the wrong baby it should’ve been me. She made a mistake. God made a mistake. He needs to repent AGAIN!!! For this ADULTEROUS GENERATION.
I bet god’s a real good dark place for me in hell.
No we cannot still be saved. If I were still saved, I wouldn’t reject Jesus, but I am.
I know full well what I’m doing and I continue to do it willingly and unrepentantly.
Not only that, but I’m constantly furious with him. I tell him he is a horrible god and how he has the nerve to shift the blame on this “supposed” sin no one can see. Apparently any sort of action done without faith in God it is sin for him/her.
Not only that, but do I look like Eve? Is my name Eve? Was I given the chance to make my own choice cause he damb well kniws therecwould or could have been a woman who didn’t, so she doesn’t speak for me and I shouldn’t be cursed for something I never did!!!! Believe me, I argue and get so angry at god that I tell him to get down here so i can punch him in the face!!! The nerve of him!!!!! I didn’t askef to be here, my mom aborted the wrong baby it should’ve been me. She made a mistake. God made a mistake. He needs to repent AGAIN!!! For this ADULTEROUS GENERATION.
I bet god’s a real good dark place for me in hell.
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Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
The woman wanted healing and she TRUSTED that Jesus could heal her and He did. Wonders of faith. BUT where does it say she was eternally saved?
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
She said to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed."
New Living Translation
for she thought, "If I can just touch his robe, I will be healed."
English Standard Version
for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.”
Berean Study Bible
She said to herself, "If only I touch His cloak, I will be healed."
Berean Literal Bible
For she was saying within herself, "If only I shall touch His garment, I will be healed."
New American Standard Bible
for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well."
King James Bible
For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
Christian Standard Bible
for she said to herself, "If I can just touch his robe, I'll be made well."
Contemporary English Version
She had said to herself, "If I can just touch his clothes, I will be healed."
Good News Translation
She said to herself, "If only I touch his cloak, I will get well."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
for she said to herself, "If I can just touch His robe, I'll be made well!"
International Standard Version
because she had been saying to herself, "If I just touch his robe, I will get well."
NET Bible
For she kept saying to herself, "If only I touch his cloak, I will be healed."
New Heart English Bible
for she said within herself, "If I just touch his garment, I will be made well."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For she was saying in herself, “If only I may touch his clothes, I shall be healed.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
She thought, "If I only touch his clothes, I'll get well."
New American Standard 1977
for she was saying to herself, “If I only touch His garment, I shall get well.”
chessman
Member
If I showed you where, would you believe it?
p.s. were you going to answer my question; "What leads you to believe that “Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die”, since the passage referenced says nothing about death?"
There is NOTHING in either verse that turns v.27 into a "condition" for never perishing. v.27 is a description of His sheep. And we know HOW one becomes His sheep, back in ch 10:9. By "entering through Me", a reference to placing one's full trust in Christ as Savior.
v.28 is a cause and result statement. The cause of possessing eternal life is Jesus Himself. He is the One who gives eternal life.
And the direct result of being given eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish.
That is EXACTLY what Jesus was meaning. There can be NO OTHER MEANING. The words are crystal clear and direct.
Jesus GIVES eternal life and the recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH. That is v.28.
It is obvious that the use of metaphors and figures of speech aren't familiar to some. Are you taking Jesus literally here? That would be a grave mistake.
Paul reminds believers to "honor father and mother" and refers to the 5th Commandment in Eph 6:2. And Jesus quoted the 5th Commandment in Matt 15:4, 19:19, Mark 7:10 and 10:19, and Luke 18:20. How can one simultaneously hate and honor their parents? Impossible.
Furthermore, Jesus wasn't speaking about how to get saved. He was speaking about how to be a student of His. That's what "disciple" means in the Greek.
Please address my comments about John 10:27,28 above.
He certainly was! The single Greek word translated by 2 English words "hold fast" means to possess. It has NOTHING to do with a tight grip that might be lost by slipping, etc. There are many on-line lexicons that one can research to know the Greek words.
Not in 1 Cor 15:2.
This is in error. The "if" in v.23 refers back to v.22. iow, IF one continues in the faith, God will "present you holy, and blameless and above reproach in His sight". That's what the "if" is about.
So, iow, IF one DOESN'T continue in the faith, then God cannot "present you holy, and blameless and above reproach in His sight".
This is an interesting comment. I've been quoting the very words of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, God, and Mastor of us in John 10:28, but to no avail. There are those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost, IN SPITE of Jesus' words about recipients of eternal life never perishing.
Maria E Abreu
Member
The key is understanding that the sheep Jesus is referring to in John 10 are His disciples, that became Apostles.
Jesus would later have other sheep, but the giving of sheep to Jesus by His Father refers to His disciples, and should not be understood as a reference to all who would later become believers.
So as you say, it is key, that the Father gave His Son His sheep, for the purpose of spreading the Gospel and everything that they were taught by Jesus, to make disciples.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:11-30
The key verse which tells me that the sheep Jesus was referring to in this passage, is referring to His 12, is verse 16 which says - And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
The other sheep are those who will believe the Gospel message through the Apostles.
Jesus also made reference to this in John 17. 6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus explained that the ones whom the Father gave Him was referring to His 12 disciples.
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. This is how I see the sheep that the Father gave Jesus.
How do you see it?
ME
I said:
"Well, if one ignores what Jesus plainly said in v.25: "I told you, and you DO NOT BELIEVE." That's the key. Not hearing and following. From v.27, Jesus was describing what His sheep DO; that is, they hear Him and follow Him. These 2 things are NOT said to be conditions for anything.
Even a casual reading of the verse shows that.
v.28 is real clear. Jesus is the One who gives eternal life, and those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
If there were conditions for recipients to meet in order to never perish, Jesus would HAVE HAD TO mention them in v.28 for it to be a true statement.
So, how many conditions did Jesus mention in v.28 in order to never perish?"
"Well, if one ignores what Jesus plainly said in v.25: "I told you, and you DO NOT BELIEVE." That's the key. Not hearing and following. From v.27, Jesus was describing what His sheep DO; that is, they hear Him and follow Him. These 2 things are NOT said to be conditions for anything.
Even a casual reading of the verse shows that.
v.28 is real clear. Jesus is the One who gives eternal life, and those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
If there were conditions for recipients to meet in order to never perish, Jesus would HAVE HAD TO mention them in v.28 for it to be a true statement.
So, how many conditions did Jesus mention in v.28 in order to never perish?"
I didn't see any answer to my question of how many conditions Jesus mentioned in v.28 in order to never perish.
Was it not enough?
OK. So, now that we have context, how many conditions did Jesus mention in v.28 in order to never perish?
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He most certainly is talking about possessing the Gospel In 1 Cor 15:2.
New International Version
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
The "if" is a first class condition. The premise is, we are saved if we believe the Gospel. It is a simple condition that is true. If it is not true, then the Gospel does not save anyone........which we all know is completely absurd. And Paul shows us this in this verse.
"by this gospel you are saved, since you posses the word I preached to you.">>> if this isn't true then the gospel doesn't save and all have believed in vain.
1 Cor 15:44 is the same construct/same type of argument. The first class conditional clause. Paul isn't saying" maybe there is, maybe there isn't." His premise is TRUE.
New American Standard Bible
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Paul is not saying,"If(maybe there is, maybe there is not) there is natural body," Paul is saying," Since there is a physical body,"
Same as 1 Cor 15:2. Paul is saying," by this gospel you are saved,since you possess the word I preached to you..."
chessman
Member
I agree. I mean, that’s what it says, read in context.
Bingo. But it has to be the real Gospel, not something more OR less! Lots of false gospels were floated about in every Century. Including this one and the 1st one CE
About like presented it seems. I’d add John 6 into it though as representing ALL His sheep.
All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and I will never throw outside the one coming to Me. Because I have come down from heaven not in order that I may be doing My will, but the will of the One having sent Me. And this is the will of the One having sent Me: that as to all that He has given to Me, I will not lose anything from it, but I will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father: that everyone seeing the Son and believing in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day”.
John 6:37-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:37-40&version=DLNTFirst of all, just reading through your posts you have so many conditions added to salvation I can't keep em all straight. And that is my definition of 'easy believism.' It is all subjective, we have our own set of rules and justify anything we want in order to get ourselves saved. Salvation becomes 'easy' because it is based upon our own subjective reasoning.
To beat our chest and recognize that we are a sinner and have to FULLY trust in Christ and His work. Luke 18:13...........it seems that is VERY hard indeed for many.
The Lord Jesus Christ tells us to honor our father and mother and even,gulp, love our enemies........So I would seriously rethink 'hate' If I was using it as the world defines it today.
If we have people relationships over and above our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ............we will not be a disciple of Christ. We will be a disciple for our relationship's with people.
If our relationship with our Savior comes first, we are his disciple. And then our relationships with people will become real and Christ centered.
Discipleship does not equal eternal salvation. Many babes in Christ lack the spiritual food for months,years,decades before they ever do a DIVINE good work.
Salvation is His FREE grace through faith in Him.
Eph 2:8~~New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Rom 11:29~~New International Version
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.