Forum Poll

[WIP]

The struggle I have with rewards is that they have no value in lite of Revelation 21:4.

 

[gr8grace3]

GR
I don't know about this rewards idea.
Jesus came here to show us how to avoid hell and make it to heaven...not to show us how to get rewards.
What scripture do you use?

I Cor 3:11-15 gives us a pretty clear start.

And His word is replete with the idea of eternal rewards and that we have a race to run and we should strive to stay inbounds(2 Tim 2:5 within the rules) and run as if to win. 1 Cor 9:24.

2 John 1:8. Live as if to get the full reward. Not part of it........stay inbounds(within the rules.)

1 Tim 6~~ 18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future(1 Cor 3:11-15), so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.


And it isn't about getting the rewards but they would be eternally lost if I rejected His ways. If we Glorify Christ he promises to reward us. Salvation is His gift to us as believers. And He rewards our positive volition/freewill if we glorify(Divine good works/His works) Him in this world.

Rev 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Rev 22:12~~

New American Standard Bible
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 2:9~~
New International Version
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--

Please consider the above bolded as rewards. I mentioned this a few pages back about 'love.'

Love in His word, when it pertains to us is synonymous with being filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. It is a virtue love. We love because of what is IN us>>>>>>Christ. Our flesh does NOT posses this type of love. And if we spend the majority of our life living in our flesh......whether it be our emotional,gushy,clean up our flesh side or the live like hell side We do not virtue love Him.

We could rightly render this verse as:

"What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived"--the things God has prepared for those who live in His Spirit.

Those believers who are quenching or grieving the Spirit.................do not virtue love God.They may have emotional, human type love but they cannot have virtue love for God while living out of His Spirit. And they could possibly miss out on these inconceivable things.

 

[gr8grace3]

The struggle I have with rewards is that they have no value in lite of Revelation 21:4.

Rev 21:4~~
We are going to have no sin nature. And it's going to be perfect. No pain. No suffering. No tears. No jealousy.No grudges. No sin.

Just like salvation, there is equal opportunity and equal privilege to advance in the Christian way of life. Some will choose to advance, some will not.

So that means I will be perfectly content as to my place in the eternal state. Mowing Paul's lawns in His ten cities won't bother me a bit.

 

[GodsGrace]

The struggle I have with rewards is that they have no value in lite of Revelation 21:4.

Yes.
Another problem is that those who are most against works, believe they have to work to get rewards.
So....what's the difference? Works is works!

 

[GodsGrace]

I Cor 3:11-15 gives us a pretty clear start.

And His word is replete with the idea of eternal rewards and that we have a race to run and we should strive to stay inbounds(2 Tim 2:5 within the rules) and run as if to win. 1 Cor 9:24.

2 John 1:8. Live as if to get the full reward. Not part of it........stay inbounds(within the rules.)

1 Tim 6~~ 18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future(1 Cor 3:11-15), so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.


And it isn't about getting the rewards but they would be eternally lost if I rejected His ways. If we Glorify Christ he promises to reward us. Salvation is His gift to us as believers. And He rewards our positive volition/freewill if we glorify(Divine good works/His works) Him in this world.

Rev 3:11~~New American Standard Bible
'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Rev 22:12~~

New American Standard Bible
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 2:9~~
New International Version
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--

Please consider the above bolded as rewards. I mentioned this a few pages back about 'love.'

Love in His word, when it pertains to us is synonymous with being filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. It is a virtue love. We love because of what is IN us>>>>>>Christ. Our flesh does NOT posses this type of love. And if we spend the majority of our life living in our flesh......whether it be our emotional,gushy,clean up our flesh side or the live like hell side We do not virtue love Him.

We could rightly render this verse as:

"What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived"--the things God has prepared for those who live in His Spirit.

Those believers who are quenching or grieving the Spirit.................do not virtue love God.They may have emotional, human type love but they cannot have virtue love for God while living out of His Spirit. And they could possibly miss out on these inconceivable things.

Thanks.
From what I know the reward is heaven.
Will study this again.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes.
Another problem is that those who are most against works, believe they have to work to get rewards.
So....what's the difference? Works is works!

They are DEAD works if our motivation is to keep/maintain salvation. A lifetime of doing what seems right. And It is all burned at the end.

I also contend, they are DEAD works if our motivation is to GET rewards. A by-product of Glorifying Christ/being filled with the Spirit is Him rewarding us.

 

[GodsGrace]

They are DEAD works if our motivation is to keep/maintain salvation. A lifetime of doing what seems right. And It is all burned at the end.

I also contend, they are DEAD works if our motivation is to GET rewards. A by-product of Glorifying Christ/being filled with the Spirit is Him rewarding us.

Isn't everything we do for God a work for Him?
What would you call it?
A service?
Same thing.
When we love someone we seek to obey them and make them happy.
Even more so for God!
Our "works" are a sign of our love for Him.
If we don't have works, it means we don't care about the kingdom of God.
And I'm not talking about works to bring about salvation.
I'm talking about Ephesians 2:10.

 

[gr8grace3]

Thanks.
From what I know the reward is heaven.
Will study this again.

No Problem.

 

[gr8grace3]

Isn't everything we do for God a work for Him?
What would you call it?
A service?
Same thing.
When we love someone we seek to obey them and make them happy.
Even more so for God!
Our "works" are a sign of our love for Him.
If we don't have works, it means we don't care about the kingdom of God.
And I'm not talking about works to bring about salvation.
I'm talking about Ephesians 2:10.

Eph 2:10~~"that we SHOULD walk in them(works)" Should is in the subjunctive mood. Maybe we will, maybe we won't do these works.

It comes back to the rules or staying inbounds while we run the race. There are EXACT stipulations in His word that we must follow in order to do these works. If we don't advance in His word or our faith or His doctrines..........we have no chance of doing them within His bounds.

Just like infants, we don't 'magically' start doing good works after we are saved. We have to learn what the rules are before we ever have a chance to participate in these Divine good works........Hence the subjunctive mood for "should."

This might be a good discussion.
Are we producing Divine good works or just human good?

 

[WIP]

All of our works are nothing more than what is our duty to do. (Luke 17:5-10) Therefore, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. (Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15) He doens't owe us anything, including salvation. Whoever is saved is saved purely by the Grace of God. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and so on said we can be saved if we believe but it is not guaranteed by our believing, is it? It is still purely God's choice. We are never in a position to boast even for believing. (Ephesians 2:9)

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph 2:10~~"that we SHOULD walk in them(works)" Should is in the subjunctive mood. Maybe we will, maybe we won't do these works.

It comes back to the rules or staying inbounds while we run the race. There are EXACT stipulations in His word that we must follow in order to do these works. If we don't advance in His word or our faith or His doctrines..........we have no chance of doing them within His bounds.

Just like infants, we don't 'magically' start doing good works after we are saved. We have to learn what the rules are before we ever have a chance to participate in these Divine good works........Hence the subjunctive mood for "should."

This might be a good discussion.
Are we producing Divine good works or just human good?

Could you define a Divine good work?

 

[chessman]

Yes according to John 10:9 anyone who enters through Christ will be saved.

Then the issue should be settled.

How can a person who has rejected Jesus Christ, to serve another lord, still continue to receive the forgiveness of sins?

This is one of those assumptive questions akin to ‘Have you stopped beating your wife?’ Logically speaking, it assumes a Jesus lover can reject Him and The Father.

Jesus responded and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. And My Father will love him. And We will come to him. And We will make a place-to-stay with him.​

John 14:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 14:23&version=DLNT

If I told someone that anyone that loves Jesus will keep His word, I can understand skepticism. After all, I could be wrong. But God being wrong??? Just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

No, I think not.

I don't blame you.

I certainly wouldn't want to try explain how a born again Christian who rejected Jesus Christ, to serve the antichrist is still saved either.

When postings I have contributed to date do not inform, nor do those that sustain those postings and as shared by other members, do not serve to enlighten, it is what it is. God's will be done.

I agree.


There really is no explanation of how a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist as lord, that would enlighten anyone.


You are wise not to try and explain.



ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Then the issue should be settled.

It is for me.

Those who believe the Gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached, are born again through that incorruptible seed.

Being born again, into His image and likeness, is the the door that we enter to begin our journey of faith with Him as our Lord and Savior.

This is one of those assumptive questions akin to ‘Have you stopped beating your wife?’ Logically speaking, it assumes a Jesus lover can reject Him and The Father.

Jesus responded and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. And My Father will love him. And We will come to him. And We will make a place-to-stay with him.John 14:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 14:23&version=DLNT

If I told someone that anyone that loves Jesus will keep His word, I can understand skepticism. After all, I could be wrong. But God being wrong??? Just doesn’t make sense to me.

It will make sense to you if you are alive when the antichrist is revealed, and you have to make the choice to reject him, and continue to believe in Jesus as Messiah, or to reject Jesus and turn to the antichrist, to receive his mark and worship him.


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12




ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

And once again I will say that the poll is deeply flawed
Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.

Here's a poll for you that is similar in its flaw:

Do you still beat your wife or have do you no longer beat her?

*Still beat her
*Don't beat her

What's missing in the poll? See? It's deliberately limiting and designed to misrepresent other views on Eternal Security. I cannot really answer this poll because it doesn't allow for my view. So the OP itself is a caricature because it deliberately ignores any middle ground or alternative positions. (like mine)

My answer would be simple.

I have never beat my wife.


Just curious.


Why do you believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved?





ME

 

[Papa Zoom]

My answer would be simple.

I have never beat my wife.


Just curious.


Why do you believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved?





ME

That wasn't a choice in the poll answers. And I don't believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved because I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever. I believe a false believer, one who claimed to believe but really didn't, would act the part but walk away because they never were among us (believers). Many people have a very shallow belief. It's weak. It's not authentic. Those people aren't believers but they look as if they are.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

That wasn't a choice in the poll answers. And I don't believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved because I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever. I believe a false believer, one who claimed to believe but really didn't, would act the part but walk away because they never were among us (believers). Many people have a very shallow belief. It's weak. It's not authentic. Those people aren't believers but they look as if they are.

I like and agree with EVERYTHING you posted here Papa. Amen. God bless all--- everyone across the board and everything

 

[Maria E Abreu]

That wasn't a choice in the poll answers.

Here is the poll question.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.


You answered yes.


My question was Why do you believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved?

And I don't believe a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved because I don't believe a spirit filled, regenerated, born from above believer would reject Jesus ever.

Then why did you answer yes?

What makes you think a born again Christian, could never turn to the antichrist and take his mark, and worship him?

Is their something stopping him from doing this?


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

I believe a false believer, one who claimed to believe but really didn't, would act the part but walk away because they never were among us (believers).

If they weren't born again, then the question doesn't apply to them.

Many people have a very shallow belief. It's weak. It's not authentic. Those people aren't believers but they look as if they are.

Then they are not born again, and this doesn't apply to them.




ME

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I'm happy to answer this question. The Bible SAYS SO.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Here are 24 verses that address salvation and eternal life. Please count all the verses that include obedience. But I'll save the time. There are NONE.


Not true. Just read the verses above again.


OK, from v.34, let's see what the Bible says about "God's will". (hint: it is in the list of verses I just gave)

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

You quote a bunch of verses FG. Yet you don't give a clear reply WHY Christ neither told the RICH MAN ( Mark 10:17) , nor the Expert of Law (Luke 10:25) when they asked Christ what they must do to inherit eternal life. Christ " fails " to mention simple words-- BELIEVE IN ME and you WILL BE SAVED. Most "surprisingly" He does NOT. WHY? Didn't he think easy believism doctrine was good enough for human salvation?
Please quote in CONTEXT and NOT other verses -- especially of apostle Paul. Remember the two men who asked the question had no means to see what Paul was going to write in the future ( from their perspective). They both ask a very simple straightforward question, and Jesus, in turn, gave them a simple, straightforward answer. Can I have an explanation from easy believers why Christ refrained from mentioning believe in me? He pointed more at obedience in my opinion. And if that's the case why must I believe the doctrine of " you believe and you're saved" being taught liberally across the country. if the head of the Church Christ Himself didn't tell these two gentlemen who asked of Him what they must do to be saved, how can contemporary teachers of God's word teach that belief instead will save? ( No obedience needed. Nothing needed really)

 

[gr8grace3]

Could you define a Divine good work?

Yes.

It is a work/fruit/thinking/motivation that is done through the filling of the Spirit.