Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[artful horizon]

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9


Those who are in Christ, can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


JLB

Context is always vital when understanding the letters to various people and churches.
In the case of 1st John , the letter is being addressed to the Asia church. The effort to bring understanding and correction to the Gnostic's and the people in Ephesus who not only did not believe Christ came in the flesh but, that sin itself wasn't real.
If a church today teaches we must continually confess our sins in order to remain in fellowship with God. That actually then makes the laws something that comes between us and the work on the cross.
Sin is a dead issue between God and ourselves.
The 1 John 1 letter was not talking to those who are saved and in Christ.

 

[Razeontherock]

Try 1 John 1:3

 

[artful horizon]

Try 1 John 1:3

Yes, that reiterates the purpose of the letter. Teaching the truth to the Gnostics and Ephesians.

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, that reiterates the purpose of the letter. Teaching the truth to the Gnostics and Ephesians.

You're carefully omitting the words "we" and "us." Slicing any part of Scripture out as not pertinent for us is a bad idea ...

 

[brujaq]

 

[Jim Parker]

The Lamb is NOT present in Hell.

Rev 14:9-11
"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

There is nowhere where God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not present.
Eph 1:22-23
And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to behead over all things to the church which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Psa 139:7-10
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.

 

[chessman]

There is nowhere where God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not present.

I noticed that none of the verses you posted states that the Lamb is omnipresent or is specifically present in Hell.

And like JLB you didn’t answer either question (care to?):

Do you believe the risen Lamb of God is currently present in the tomb?

But the one says to them, “Do not be alarmed. You are seeking Jesus from-Nazareth, the One having been crucified. He arose, He is not here. Look— the place where they laid Him!Mark 16:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 16:6&version=DLNT​

​

The One testifying these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly’”. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.Revelation 22:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 22:20&version=DLNT

If He’s omnipresent (the Lamb, the risen Christ, not the Holy Spirit) then why does John pray for His second coming?

As for the Rev 14 passage (which again doesn’t say that the Lamb is omnipresent but does prophecy where this particular torment will occur):

And I saw, and behold— the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one-hundred forty four thousand having His name and the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.​

Revelation 14:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:1&version=DLNT

Do you believe Hell is on Mount Zion?

..., having raised Him from the dead and having seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,​

Ephesians 1:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:20&version=DLNT

Is the Lamb now seated in Heavenly places or is He seated on Mount Zion?

Psa 139:7-10
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence

I haven’t said, nor do I believe, The Spirit of God is not omnipresent. Nor do I believe David will be someone told to; “Depart from me” by The Lamb. The Lamb of God has told us, and I believe Him, that He has gone and, ‘He’ll be back’, which will occur on a day visioned by John in Rev 14.

For I am going to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming back. And I will take you to Myself— in order that where I am, you also may be.​

John 14:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 14:3&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

I noticed that none of the verses you posted states that the Lamb is omnipresent

You have yet to provide any scripture that teaches the fire, torment or punishment is temporary.

Trying to disprove that Christ is omnipresent, in your attempt to try and redefine “everlasting” as being somehow temporary, is not the work of sound doctrine.

In the following scriptures, Christ is shown to be omnipresent.


10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:11

• the Spirit of Christ who was in them

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:9-10

Christ dwells in all those who are His no matter where they are in heaven or on earth.



JLB

 

[chessman]

the Spirit of Christ who was in them

And notice that it was the Spirit, not the Lamb. There is no Scripture that I disagree with.

Are you going to answer my questions?

 

[JLB]

And notice that it was the Spirit, not the Lamb. There is no Scripture that I disagree with.

Are you going to answer my questions?

The scripture says if Christ is in you...


And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.



I have answered your many questions, and am waiting for you to answer mine and provide the scriptures that says the fire, and torment and punishment is temporary.


Jesus sentences these to the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, away from Him.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:12


The torment and the fire and the punishment are all everlasting, lasting forever and ever.


Can you provide some scriptures like I have, that show us the the fire, torment and punishment is temporary?




JLB

 

[chessman]

I have answered your many questions,

No you’ve not. Here’s a partial list of questions I have asked you which you’ve not answered:
1.

Which verse of the Bible translates ólethros as i.e. “death”?

2.

Where’s your evidence he [the Rich Man] had received his final judgment, versus being reserved for the day of judgment?

3.

Do you believe God’s eternal fire is unable to consume the wicked?

4.

Do you believe the risen Lamb of God is currently present in the tomb?

5.

If He’s omnipresent (the Lamb, the risen Christ, not the Holy Spirit) then why does John pray for His second coming?

As far as your continued re-assertion of the omnipresence nature of THE LAMB of God (which is not the same as omnipresence of The Spirit of God unless you hold to Oneness/anti-Trinitarian doctrine), one question you did answer (finally) concluded that The Lamb is not present in The Lake of Fire. Are you now changing your previous answer?

I asked

Do you believe that The Lamb and Holy angels are present in The Lake of Fire eternally?

You answered

The answer is no, the Lamb and the holy angels are not present in the lake of fire.

Then there is at least one place in which the Lamb is not present.

 

[JLB]

No you’ve not. Here’s a partial list of questions I have asked you which you’ve not answered:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

As far as your continued re-assertion of the omnipresence nature of THE LAMB of God (which is not the same as omnipresence of The Spirit of God unless you hold to Oneness/anti-Trinitarian doctrine), one question you did answer (finally) concluded that The Lamb is not present in The Lake of Fire. Are you now changing your previous answer?

I asked


You answered


Then there is at least one place in which the Lamb is not present.

Again, I have answered your many questions, and you refuse to answer 1 of mine.


I wonder why?


Can you provide some scriptures like I have, that show us the fire, torment and punishment are temporary?


Jesus sentences these to the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, away from Him.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:12


The torment and the fire and the punishment are all everlasting, lasting forever and ever.








JLB

 

[chessman]

Can you provide some scriptures like I have, that show us the the fire, torment and punishment is temporary?

You’ve presented no Scripture that says the resurrected dead, judged wicked, unbelievers experience eternal torment. Because there is none.

This Thread is a debate about the eternal torment of the ressurected and judged wicked versus their eternal destruction, not whether the fire is eternal or the punishment is eternal. I have stated repeatedly that the eternal fire is eternal and that their eternal punishment is eternal. Once God shows His authority to destroy both body and soul of the resurrected unbelievers, it is everlasting. There is no debate over the eternality of God’s wrathful, fiery punishment of the wicked. At least between Bible believers.

The debate is settled (or should be) by simply believing these three Scriptures:

And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. And if anyone was not found having been written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:14-15&version=DLNT

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

You’ve presented no Scripture that says the resurrected dead, judged wicked, unbelievers experience eternal torment. Because there is none.

This Thread is a debate about the eternal torment of the ressurected and judged wicked versus their eternal destruction, not whether the fire is eternal or the punishment is eternal. I have stated repeatedly that the eternal fire is eternal and that their eternal punishment is eternal. Once God shows His authority to destroy both body and soul of the resurrected unbelievers, it is everlasting. There is no debate over the eternality of God’s wrathful, fiery punishment of the wicked. At least between Bible believers.

The debate is settled (or should be) by simply believing these three Scriptures:

And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. And if anyone was not found having been written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:14-15&version=DLNT

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

Here are my scriptures again, that show us the punishment from the Lord in the fire is, everlasting and the fire is everlasting and the torment is everlasting.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:12


The torment and the fire and the punishment are all everlasting, lasting forever and ever.


Can you provide some scriptures like I have, that show us the fire, torment and punishment are temporary?


JLB

 

[artful horizon]

You're carefully omitting the words "we" and "us." Slicing any part of Scripture out as not pertinent for us is a bad idea ...

My mistake. I did not know that you were Gnostic or of Ephesus.

 

[Razeontherock]

My mistake. I did not know that you were Gnostic or of Ephesus.

That's not exactly honest dialogue.

 

[Jim Parker]

I noticed that none of the verses you posted states that the Lamb is omnipresent or is specifically present in Hell.

The Lamb is Jesus.
Jesus is God.
God is omnipresent.
So, Jesus is omnipresent.

 

[UberMink]

You're carefully omitting the words "we" and "us." Slicing any part of Scripture out as not pertinent for us is a bad idea ...

Failing to understand the context of a passage or chapter or letter is bad exegesis.

 

[chessman]

The Lamb is Jesus.
Jesus is God.
God is omnipresent.
So, Jesus is omnipresent.

I see you like to dabble with syllogisms.

Are you aware that your conclusion does not even contain your major term in question (the Lamb)?

Regardless, let’s examine the single passage below slowly and carefully and answer a logical question based on it’s truth statement:

He is not here, for He arose, just as He said. ​

Matthew 28:6a

Was Jesus there?

 

[LovethroughDove]

The parable of the sheep and goats shows where believers and unbelievers go.

Unbelievers - Matthew 25:41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."