Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[acts 28]

I beg to differ. Peter clearly witnessed to gentiles. See Acts 10 and 15:9.

The ONLY reason Peter ministered to that Gentile was to pave the way, with the 11 other apostles, for Paul's Gentile Ministry. Peter hated every minute of it, as proven when he had to see the vision 3 times, before he would do it. That was the only instance, in the Bible, of the 12 EVER ministering to ANY Gentile.

In Acts 15:9, Peter isn't ministering to anybody. He is agreeing that the Gentiles could be in the all-Israel church, by being grafted into the nation of Israel, and partaking of a few of Israel's blessings, without having to keep the Law. That's what Paul called the Gospel of the Grace of God. Instead of the Law, the Gentiles were given 4 ordinances to obey, in order to remain in the 100% Israel Church.

 

[JLB]

If you continue Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired sentence, rather than chopping his (His) sentence off at the comma, this Scripture defines exactly what it means in this context/sentence to “depart from the faith”:

“The faith”, is crystal clear.

“The faith”, refers to the faith in Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Indeed.

If you continue Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired sentence, rather than chopping his (His) sentence off at the comma, this Scripture defines exactly what it means in this context/sentence to “depart from the faith”:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth. Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

1 Timothy 4:1-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-5&version=DLNT

Doctrines that forbid:
1. Marriages
2. Eating certain foods
are (according to Paul and the Spirit here) a departure from the true faith. Because the truth is; everything (and I mean everything) created by God and sanctified by the Word of God and prayer will not be rejected.

While pointing-out these things to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, while being nourished in the words of the faith and the good teaching which you have closely-followed. But be declining the profane and old-womanish myths. But be training yourself for godliness.​

1 Timothy 4:6-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:6-7&version=DLNT

And pointing out this truth IS being a good servant of Christ Jesus. Oh, and what/who is also sanctified by the Word of God and prayer??? All believers:

They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world— set them apart in the truth. Your word is truth. Just as You sent Me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world. And I am setting apart Myself for them, in order that they may also be set apart in truth. “And I am not praying for these ones only, but also for the ones believing in Me through their word, that they may all be one — just as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You, that they also may be in Us— in order that the world may be believing that You sent Me forth. And I have given them the glory which You have given to Me in order that they may be one just as We are one, I in them and You in Me; in order that they may be perfected into one— in order that the world may be knowing that You sent Me forth, and loved them just as You loved Me. “Father, as to what You have given to Me, I desire that those ones also may be with Me where I am, in order that they may be seeing My glory which You have given to Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.​

John 17:16-24 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:16-24&version=DLNT

Any doctrine which attempts to separate some of the believers in Christ Jesus (by not including “all” of them) Jesus prayed far is just false, demonically inspired and hypocritical, in fact.

If a believer departs from the faith are they still saved by faith?


What is the difference between someone who never had faith and someone who no longer has faith?

They both do not have faith.




JLB

 

[acts 28]

Jesus taught and healed both Roman soldiers and Samaritans. I agree that Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles (but not that Paul's teachings only applied to Gentiles). I do not agree with the idea that Jesus came for only the Jews. He came for Israel first, and then the Gentiles. But He came for us all.

To clarify your position, are you saying you follow Paul but do not follow Jesus? Because that sounds like the stance your taking.

If that is the case, then I'd recommend rereading what Paul taught. What Paul taught reinforced what was already taught by Jesus. Including being saved. Reading and understanding both what Jesus taught, as well as Acts and the Letters are good for all of us. In Jesus there is no Greek or Jew. No separation of being saved by Jesus and being a Gentile, or being saved by Jesus and bring a Jew. We are all under the same grace and the same teachings.

You're the one that needs to do the reading about what Paul taught. It's obvious you've spent your time in his 7 Acts books, which aren't TO or ABOUT us today and have totally ignored his 7 after-Acts books, the only books in the Bible that are TO and ABOUT anyone living today

What Paul taught for the dispensation of today, which started after Acts, is found ONLY in his 7 100% Gentile epistles written after Acts - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. His 7 epistles written during Acts, Rom, Thess, Gal, Cor, and Heb, involve the 100% Israel Acts church, made up of Jews and Gentiles who were part of Israel, because they were grafted into the nation of Israel. The Acts Church was set aside in Ac 28:28, in 64AD, when the nation Israel ceased to be God's people, Hos 1:9. They will most likely be back in God's graces in 2064

Paul was given a new dispensation after Acts ended, with a New Church. The Hope of this church, the only church available for anyone living in the past 1956 years, is to spend eternity in Heavenly Places, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Eph 1:20, 2:6. Those today who see, believe, and claim this Hope, found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, are the only people in the Bible who ever had a hope of going to Heaven. At this time, with NO Israel, none of the other 59, all-Israel books, are TO us or ABOUT us today. EVERYONE saved in those 59 Jewish books had a Hope to spend eternity in either the New Earth or the New Jerusalem. The NJ certainly isn't Heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth. permanently, as far as we're told.

 

[JLB]

You're the one that needs to do the reading about what Paul taught. It's obvious you've spent your time in his 7 Acts books, which aren't TO or ABOUT us today and have totally ignored his 7 after-Acts books, the only books in the Bible that are TO and ABOUT anyone living today

What Paul taught for the dispensation of today, which started after Acts, is found ONLY in his 7 100% Gentile epistles written after Acts - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. His 7 epistles written during Acts, Rom, Thess, Gal, Cor, and Heb, involve the 100% Israel Acts church, made up of Jews and Gentiles who were part of Israel, because they were grafted into the nation of Israel. The Acts Church was set aside in Ac 28:28, in 64AD, when the nation Israel ceased to be God's people, Hos 1:9. They will most likely be back in God's graces in 2064

Paul was given a new dispensation after Acts ended, with a New Church. The Hope of this church, the only church available for anyone living in the past 1956 years, is to spend eternity in Heavenly Places, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Eph 1:20, 2:6. Those today who see, believe, and claim this Hope, found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, are the only people in the Bible who ever had a hope of going to Heaven. At this time, with NO Israel, none of the other 59, all-Israel books, are TO us or ABOUT us today. EVERYONE saved in those 59 Jewish books had a Hope to spend eternity in either the New Earth or the New Jerusalem. The NJ certainly isn't Heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth. permanently, as far as we're told.

So far all you really have is just your opinion.


I gave scripture refuting everything so far.


Please cease with these blanket statements that are nothing more than just your opinion.


Please make your point with scripture.


If you believe the words of Christ are not for the Church then show us scripture that says so.




JLB

 

[WIP]

The ONLY reason Peter ministered to that Gentile was to pave the way, with the 11 other apostles, for Paul's Gentile Ministry. Peter hated every minute of it, as proven when he had to see the vision 3 times, before he would do it.

I propose that the only reason he did it was because he was shown the light by God and had nothing to do with his own desires. I believe it took three visions to convince Peter because he needed to have it repeated to him.

Matthew 28:18-20 NKJV
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Make disciples of all nations, not just Jewish nations.

 

[ezra]

luke 2 says Christ is LIGHT to the gentiles

 

[JLB]

Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,
Isaiah 42:1-6






JLB

 

[chessman]

luke 2 says Christ is LIGHT to the gentiles

JLB beat me to it. But ...

And Yahweh said to Abram, “Go out from your land and from your relatives, and from the house of your father, to the land that I will show you. And I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great. And you will be a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and those who curse you I will curse. And all families of the earth will be blessed in you.”​

Genesis 12:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 12:1-3&version=LEB

And from the Psalm quoted from the cross:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to Yahweh. All the families of the nations will worship before you. Because the kingship belongs to Yahweh, and he rules over the nations.​

Psalm 22:27-28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 22:27-28&version=LEB

It’s actually all over the OT.

For the Messiah to have fulfilled prophecy, it was/is a must.

 

[OzSpen]

thank you for your awesome reply

i agree with some of your statements said and disagree with some

thank you for all the excellent suggestions and links

i meant transliteration because transliteration is for people that can't read the greek or hebrew alphabet -

i do agree with you saying interlinear - but if an interlinear does not include transliteration a beginner will be totally lost

i disagree that a person CAN'T / shouldn't learn greek/hebrew from a transliterated interlinear - it is a beautiful way to begin learning - and it is a wonderful chance to find out for free if a person is interested enough in learning the biblical language - and if so paying money for courses

i understand that accredited courses are optimal - but for beginners it is totally unnecessary -

if a person is learning biblical greek / hebrew ONLY to receive exciting living revelation from the bible a transliteration is PERFECT / fun / extremely accessible / easiest

if a person wants to become a greek/hebrew scholar it is woefully insufficient

so from your point of view you are correct

from my pov i am correct

it all depends on why a person wants to read the bible in the original language -

to teach others as a scholar? -

or to learn and grow in the Lord and SHARE with others the exciting treasures the original biblical languages contain?

PS mounce is greek only - i recommend a greek hebrew transliteration - unless a person only wants to study the nt - then i suppose mounce would do - i don't know - i prefer the whole bible to just the nt

PS2. i respect you my friend - if we actually get to where we translate a greek portion of the nt i would respect what you say -

i'm not trying to debate you - i'm just trying to share my joy for greek and hebrew over english - and i have been blessed with using a transliteration and a lexicon - it's fun easy doable for non-scholars -

can we non-scholars create a new translation? - no - but that is not our goal -

can we debate scholars? - no - but that is not our goal -

we just want to soak in God's words in the best possible way - a transliteration imo is the best possible way for a non-scholar

Truthfrees,

I'm not talking about learning Greek to become a scholar. That's a gift from God.

However, to learn basic Greek, please don't use an Interlinear Bible as it teaches nothing about grammar.

I recommend getting a copy of an intro to Greek text such as the one I used in my very first Greek course under Dr Larry Hurtado at Regent College (now University), Vancouver BC, Canada. This is a picture of it:


Published by Cambridge University Press.

Here is an excellent YouTube video to help get the sound of the Greek alphabet letters into our skull:

.

If any people on the forum wanted to learn from Wenham's text and this YouTube pronunciation and they had access to Skype, they could help one another or use PM's for bouncing things off other students.

Just some ideas.

It's getting close to bedtime for me.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

You've used OSAS vs OSNAS as 'incorrect doctrine'.

I'd like you to define what you regard as 'incorrect doctrine' when Scripture speaks of 'false doctrine/teaching' and 'false prophets' (Jer 23:16; Matt 24:24; 2 Tim 4:3-4; 2 Pet 2; 3:17-18).

Would you regard a different interpretation such as OSAS vs OSNAS as on the same level of heresy as those who are unitarians with regard to the Godhead or the heretical views of Bultmann and Spong?

German theologian, Rudolph Bultmann, wrote:

It is impossible to use electric light and the wireless and to avail ourselves of modern medical and surgical discoveries, and at the same time to believe in the New Testament world of spirits and miracles (Bultmann 1961:5).​

​

Retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong wrote:

1. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
2. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
3. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
4. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
5. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed (J S Spong 1998, A Call for a New Reformation).

Do you place Bultmann's and Spong's heretical teachings on the same level of 'incorrect doctrine' as OSAS vs OSNAS?

Oz

Works consulted

R. Bultmann 'New Testament and Mythology' in Kerygma and Myth: a theological debate. H.W. Bartsch (ed), R.H. Fuller (trans). New York: Harper & Row, 1961.

Hi Oz,
Sorry for delay.

No. I don't consider incorrect doctrine to be the same as heresy. Heresy means believing something that is the opposite of accepted Christanity.

heresy
/ˈhɛrɪsi/
noun

1. belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
   "Huss was burned for heresy"
   sinonimiissension, dissent, dissidence, blasphemy, nonconformity, unorthodoxy, heterodoxy, apostasy, freethinking, schism, faction; Altro
   
   
   
   
   • opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted.
     "the heresy of being uncommitted to the right political dogma"

So now we have to define the difference between incorrect doctrine and heresey.

doctrine
/ˈdɒktrɪn/
noun

1. a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
   "the doctrine of predestination"
   sinonimi:creed, credo, dogma, belief, set of beliefs, code of belief, conviction, teaching; Altro
   
   
   • US
     a stated principle of government policy, mainly in foreign or military affairs.
     "the Truman Doctrine"

The way I understand it is that an incorrect doctrine is taught by a Christian church based on how it understands particular scriptures.

A heresy is a belief that goes agains ANY and ALL churches because it teaches what is not found anywhere in the bible...IOW, it discards the bible and comes up with its own understanding.

The gnostics would be a good example. I can't find anywhere in scripture that teaches that the body is separate from the soul...I do find that we are a complete human, comprising of body, soul and spirit.

In the case of OSAS, we do have some verses that seem to show that we are saved forever once we come to believe. Although I don't agree with this and the majority of churches don't either...it's understandable how this could be deduced from scripture.

The authors you posted are heretics and are not christians that believe in incorrect doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

i can't see how a wrong doctrine can cause a born again believer/ a new creation in Christ to stop being a new creation

salvation is a work of God in our lives - learning to stop sinning and living righteously is an ongoing work of God in our lives

false doctrine - or even misunderstanding true doctrines can interfere with how well we do with interacting with God and people - and how well we do with overcoming sin - and how well we do with accepting ourselves while God is working His daily work in our lives - and it can even cause us to think we are lost when God really has us firmly in His hand - but i don't see how our silly misunderstanding of scripture can cause the powerful work of salvation to be lost

Hi TF,
Sorry for delay.

I believe a wrong doctrine can cause one to lose their salvation ONLY if that wrong doctrine makes them disobedient to God's commands.

Let's say a person believe in OSAS. Once they are saved,,,they will always be saved. I'm not saying all these believers are not obedient to God,,,but I HAVE hears some say that we don't really have to obey because we'll be forgiven.

I ask: Will God accept this disobedience?
Would it cause someone to lose their salvation?

Is salvation dependent on what we believe to be true or is it dependent on God's rules?

I've always said that doctrine does not save us, Jesus does.
But what if that doctrine causes us to be against the commands Jesus left us?

 

[GodsGrace]

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


Yes, most certainly correct doctrine does has to do with our salvation.




JLB

Yes, I believe you're right.

See my post no. 112.

One could have a misunderstanding of the Trinity, for instance, but still follows the commands of God....

But some doctrine might cause us NOT to...it would depend on the doctrine not being obeyed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Senior,

I consider there is a word that suits all of the verses for and against.

I am not convinced OSAS or OSNAS is taught in the Bible.

I find the better language to be 'endurance' or 'perseverance' to the end.

Traditionally, this has been called perseverance of the saints and is supported by Matt 24:13 (ESV), 'The one who endures to the end will be saved'.

Oz

Right.
But those believing in OSAS will say we do not have to endure to the end! THIS is the problem....

 

[GodsGrace]

i guess the best thing and easiest to understand principle would be for us to tell people to draw near to God - even when you sin - and He will draw near to you - and help you get free from sin - and do this for the rest of your life

if they do just that they should have the most important doctrine they need

Agreed.
But I'm told we're saved no matter what.

Then I hear that it's GOD that does EVERYTHING.
So does HE cause us to sin too?

I think learning correct doctrine is very important for some persons. (those that believe obeying is not necessary).

 

[GodsGrace]

to lose ? NOTHING CAN CAUSE you to .. you can walk away you can reject ..but i can not cause you .. you can be deceived..but nobody can take your salvation away
Jude
Now to Him who is able to keep [m]you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, klv reads you from falling . if i worried about losing something that is kept by the power of God. i would not be a christian.. that is not osas but Bible ....define incorrect doctrine

Here we go....
perfect example...
You say NOTHING can cause us to lose our salvation.

So maybe some will return to sinning continuously, or to a specific sin or other...

Now they are disobeying God when the N.T. is full of verses saying we must obey and continue to the end to be saved.
John 14, for example, is chock full of these verses.

So, would your statement maybe cause someone to lose their salvation?

Does 2 Timothy 2:12 mean anything important to you?

 

[JLB]

Here we go....
perfect example...
You say NOTHING can cause us to lose our salvation.

So maybe some will return to sinning continuously, or to a specific sin or other...

Now they are disobeying God when the N.T. is full of verses saying we must obey and continue to the end to be saved.
John 14, for example, is chock full of these verses.

So, would your statement maybe cause someone to lose their salvation?

Does 2 Timothy 2:12 mean anything important to you?

So true.


It’s not that we are asking anyone to “let go” of the scriptures that teach us and encourage us about God and His great mercy and grace toward us, to bring us into everlasting life His Son paid the price for us to obtain.


It’s that we ask to them to “take hold” of the other verses that admonish and warn us about departing from the faith; departing from Christ, without whom we will be lost.


We must learn to reconcile these scriptures together to establish and walk in the truth.


We must love the truth.

All truth. The Spirit leads us and guides us into all truth.

Not just the truth we like to hear.


Those who don’t learn to love the truth are in great danger of being deceived.

• with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 2:9-12





JLB

 

[Senior]

In the case of OSAS, we do have some verses that seem to show that we are saved forever once we come to believe. Although I don't agree with this and the majority of churches don't either...it's understandable how this could be deduced from scripture.

Myself and others have deduced what the problem is ...
the single word "believe" doesn't even come close
to including all of what is required for eternal life.

First, the verb tense is used in a continuous sense.
(Enduring in the faith is absolutely mandatory!)

Next, some Greek words have different meanings
within Christianity than in the secular world.

Finally, to reconcile with the rest of the NT ...
true saving belief includes faith, trust, obedience.
I.E. NT pisteou means different that secular pisteou!

 

[acts 28]

If people lost their salvation by believing the wrong doctrine, no one who ever believed a denominational preacher would be saved.

 

[chessman]

What is the difference between someone who never had faith and someone who no longer has faith?

I normally do not reply to posts without Scriptural reference but for you, I'll make an exception:

Someone who never had saving faith is an unbeliever (literally in the Greek it means not-believer). ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful,"

Someone who no longer has saving faith (but once did) would be called an ex-believer (a word that never appears in the whole enter Bible, literally it's not-biblical, unbiblical).

Here's Jesus' definition:

John 3:18 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

18 The one believing in Him is not judged. But the one not believing has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-born Son of God. ​

​

See??? According to Jesus, someone not believing (an unbeliever, same word in the Greek) has not believed in the name of the only-born Son of God.

I know there are people out there that think there are some 'unbelievers' who have once believed in the name of the only-born Son of God and yet longer believe in the name. The problem is, that's an unbiblical idea, literally, according to Jesus. And it's an idea that directly conflicts with Jesus' teaching here in John 3:18. I believe Jesus on this subject.

Do you believe there are unbelievers who have believed in the name of the only-born Son of God?