The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0


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Well, if you believed that those that have not have not heard the gospel are domed than that would be enough evidence. But since you don't ..
*ponders* perhaps your equate your definition of "fair" with "just" ... not matter ... Romans 9:9-24
Justice is giving everyone what they deserve. No one goes to Hell that doesn't deserve it.
I think you skew the definition of justice such that God is obligated to give everyone the same chance to be saved. This thought (assuming I stated your opinion accurately) is shown to be incorrect by the empirical evidence that God does not offer Satan and his fallen angels mercy, nor does He give everyone the blessing of Christian parents, some are indoctrinated into Islam, etc.

Not relevant as I've stated above.

Hardly nothing ... "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God",... the penalty for sin is death, yahda, yahda ... so I don't accept your premise that "we have done nothing wrong".

My post no. 703 was an example.
I know we are born sinful.
I did NOT mean that we have done nothing wrong....

Hey, I hear where you are coming from. I am not unsympathetic. You have reasoned that God must treat everyone that same or He is unjust. We know for a fact God doesn't treat everyone the same. Some are born blind, some deaf, some poor, some rich, some have Christian parents. If you are to be consistent then use your definition of a just God to all the other things man experiences.

The above is due to the fall, which also affected nature.
We are all born in different states of health.
This has nothing to do with soteriology.

You assume that since the statement is made that there MUST be a possibility that the person can do it of his on INDEPENDENT resources. These are statements of what one must do, not HOW. When you get to the verses about HOW one comes to God, then they will state that God does all the work and you don't. (I know we disagree.... call it a stalemate *loving smile*) ... I could list verses...

Yes,,please list some verses.
I'm not sure of what you're speaking....

Well, I don't use history books to determine my theology. If you do then ponder on this: It wasn't until Christ and afterwards that anyone considered the Trinity to exist. Now the doctrine of the Trinity is essential to Christian doctrine. Thus, if you are to be consistent you should go back to the earlier church fathers (before Christ) and say the trinity is historically inconsistent.

And how do you know about the Trinity?
Perhaps through someone's writing?
That would be history.

And there are no early church fathers before Christ.

And the trinity is throughout the bible,,,but might have been missed if persons more intelligent than you or I didn't put the idea present
into words in written form.

Aside using your historical method to confirm truth (which I do not accept): Augustine was born in 340. Augustine believed: Augustine’s strong predestinarian views influenced a number of Roman Catholic thinkers in history, but has been, for the most part, ignored by their modern counterparts. Augustine’s basic perspectives on this topic were embraced largely by such Protestant Reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin, and are still reflected today in the historic confessional statements of the Reformed theological tradition. https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/r...s-view-of-predestination-st.-augustine-part-9
... so much for history defines truth (IMO)

You make too many assumptions about me.
I don't use history books to come to truth.
The bible happens to explain itself.
However, we are helped by persons that can understand it better than we can.

I happen to read those red letter words and listen to them carefully.
THAT is what I go by.

You, OTOH...are following the teachings of a man....
Calvin.

And I'm not going to your link on Augustine...
I happen to know as much about him as I care to.

Well, if being of the majority opinion makes one right, then we should be Roman Catholics ... especially, say 1000 years ago. It was the reformers that broke away from the R.C.s ... then you guys broke away from us and were a minority ... (church history is not my strong suit ... I think I have it right)

Interesting discussion. Thanks for you patience.

Catholics had it right in the beginning.
By 1,000 years ago they had messed things up and the Orthodox broke away for reasons of authority. (the Pope).
The reformation came in the 1,500's and turned everything that was ever believed about Christianity upside down.
This also caused many wars and many to die for reasons of faith since faith had become politicized.

As for "us guys" breaking away from the early reformation....
of course. Happily, many knew the theology as not correct.

 

[PeterJens]

I read your response twice and have no idea as to what most of what you have written means. Sounds quite mistical, but mostly incomprehensible.

This is not mystical at all, it is about being with someone in their feelings and reactions and partaking in a discussion as to what to do next.

In most relationship situations we choose the next step, based on what we want and how others might react.
This is basic relationship dynamics. If this is beyond you, do you know yourself let alone Jesus?

In our house group last we were talking about the 10 commandments and I was making the point our emotional reaction to these points often decides what we are going to do. One member shared how in discussions with people who wanted to divorce and be with another partner justified it to themselves that it was the right thing to do.

So talking through ones approaches and feelings is a very human reality. For some in my house group emotional life is not something they relate to, emotions just distract from the realities of faith. But often this language is about the moods of the day, not foundational realities and truths in ones life, because touch on these issues and deep worry and distrust emerges. So how we separate our ebbs and flows make conversations and awareness often difficult to communicate. If you lose someone close to you, it is life shattering. You do not choose the reaction, it just happens. It is then maybe one begins to see our emotional roots in situations, people and place. Ironically we defend these realities so strongly we can live our lives saying we are not emotional at all, not realising we defend our emotional life so strongly they rarely jiggle, so we imagine they actually do not exist. That is our true self deception, and our false sense of security.

When you become embedded in Christ, real openness and honest is possible, because the need to be so defended has been removed. It is what Jesus called being set free. The truth shall set you free. Amen to that.

 

[PeterJens]

Fastfredy0


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Not relevant as I've stated above.


My post no. 703 was an example.
I know we are born sinful.
I did NOT mean that we have done nothing wrong....


The above is due to the fall, which also affected nature.
We are all born in different states of health.
This has nothing to do with soteriology.


Yes,,please list some verses.
I'm not sure of what you're speaking....


And how do you know about the Trinity?
Perhaps through someone's writing?
That would be history.

And there are no early church fathers before Christ.

And the trinity is throughout the bible,,,but might have been missed if persons more intelligent than you or I didn't put the idea present
into words in written form.



You make too many assumptions about me.
I don't use history books to come to truth.
The bible happens to explain itself.
However, we are helped by persons that can understand it better than we can.

I happen to read those red letter words and listen to them carefully.
THAT is what I go by.

You, OTOH...are following the teachings of a man....
Calvin.

And I'm not going to your link on Augustine...
I happen to know as much about him as I care to.

Catholics had it right in the beginning.
By 1,000 years ago they had messed things up and the Orthodox broke away for reasons of authority. (the Pope).
The reformation came in the 1,500's and turned everything that was ever believed about Christianity upside down.
This also caused many wars and many to die for reasons of faith since faith had become politicized.

As for "us guys" breaking away from the early reformation....
of course. Happily, many knew the theology as not correct.

Hi Wondering,

I had a thought that worries me a bit. We call intellectual understanding spirituality when we have a theological view correctly and behave appropriately. But I wonder if we have missed the point. Our emotions should reflect the Lords view, because it is a summary of a response to a situation and life. When we are born these summaries are random, often out of control, and inappropriate. As we grow we can repress them to a degree we do not know who we are, and dictate to ourselves what is appropriate to show and what is not, without seeing why and how, and whether we agree or disagree with these approaches.

What has sparked a new insight is the Father talks with Moses about His anger and frustration with Israel. Moses gets rebuked for not giving God honour when striking the rock but showed anger to Israel at their disbelief. It makes me begin to see it is this maturity to become like the Lord, to feel and react as He reacts which is the beginning of oneness. Paul expressed it in terms of being one in mind and thought. Peter talked about our brotherly love, patience, self control was real spirituality.

The difference appears to be speaking superficially with the ups and downs of each day, or our deep commitments and inner souls echoing the Lord and His will. It is literally impossible for this to become true and not to be everything we are, which includes our emotions.

I say the above because what you are sharing about calvanism and how its precepts work out can deny the God of love, grace and forgiveness. It takes me back to seeing my son at 2 falling over an crying. We would give him full attention, check him that things were ok, reassure him we were there and help him continue in his tasks or play. The emotional setting was essential to grow and develop. In the Lord I see no difference, but many are totally blind to these core realities of everyday.

I know how fragile I am, and how I walk a tight rope of my work and its value. I need the Lords encouragement and know my weakness, my propensity to over analyse and how to walk forward. At one point I thought I understood where I stood in comparison to others. I am now very aware, I have no clue, and can just encourage and help others along the way. We often take our feeling summaries of others as if they are real, and then react accordingly, when in the Lord all we can actually do if offer love and care as they carry their burdens along.

More pointedly, most of my work in software can become worthless if the project is abandoned or passed over, no matter how good it is, it can be just chaff in the wind. So though I might be able to achieve things others cannot, it makes no odds if nothing actually comes of it. Quite humbling in regard to the grandure of man. In Christ we are everything, and He is prepared to love and help us in our sand castle building, and help us move on, when it falls apart.

God bless you

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes.
You gotta love Augustine.
Came out of manichaen gnosticism and took some of his ideas with him.
He changed his mind on evil and on free will during his lifetime.
He didn't believe in double predestination like Calvin did, but if a person would just use some logic...
they'd figure out that it's all double predestination.

I believe one of the reasons he was revered in the church of that time was, one, charisma. Can't get anywhere without that.
And then because he was so good at battling against gnosticism - maybe because he came from the inside out. But still it's difficult to leave behind, totally, ideas that one grew up with at an early age. He became Catholic at the age of 30/31.

This is from Wikipedia, but I know for a fact that the Catholic Church teaches that he did not believe in double predestination.
He also changed his mind on free will reverting back to determinism is his battle with Pelagius.

The early Christians opposed the deterministic views (e.g., fate) of Stoics, Gnostics, and Manichaeans prevalent in the first four centuries.[188] Christians championed the concept of a relational God who interacts with humans rather than a Stoic or Gnostic God who unilaterally foreordained every event (yet Stoics still claimed to teach free will).[189] Patristics scholar Ken Wilson argues that every early Christian author with extant writings who wrote on the topic prior to Augustine of Hippo (412) advanced human free choice rather than a deterministic God.[190] According to Wilson, Augustine taught traditional free choice until 412, when he reverted to his earlier Manichaean and Stoic deterministic training when battling the Pelagians.[191] Only a few Christians accepted Augustine's view of free will until the Protestant Reformation when both Luther and Calvin embraced Augustine's deterministic teachings wholeheartedly.[192][193]

The Catholic Church considers Augustine's teaching to be consistent with free will.[194] He often said that anyone can be saved if they wish.[194] While God knows who will and won't be saved, with no possibility for the latter to be saved in their lives, this knowledge represents God's perfect knowledge of how humans will freely choose their destinies.[194]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo#:~:text=In late August of 386,Latin: tolle, lege).

You're right! Predestination of one set of people is predestination of all other sets. I also agree that Augustine fell back into some of his Manichaeans ideas.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

It is nowhere in the context, which means it is only there by eisegesis!

Doug

It comes from knowledge of the scriptures.

 

[jerry63935]

The Shepherd effects the Repentance, He is getting credit for finding the Sheep and putting it on His Shoulder.

that is not Bible as per your explanation we have to repent

 

[brightfame52]

that is not Bible as per your explanation we have to repent

The Shepherd when He finds the Lost Sheep gives them repentance. Repentance is From Christ the Shepherd of the Sheep.

 

[jerry63935]

The Shepherd when He finds the Lost Sheep gives them repentance. Repentance is From Christ the Shepherd of the


REPENTANCE is what we are to do REPENT for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

The Shepherd when He finds the Lost Sheep gives them repentance. the SHEPHEARD gives grace

 

[TibiasDad]

It comes from knowledge of the scriptures.

Judas hanged himself, and Jesus said "Go and do likewise"! Both are biblical, but they don't go together. There is no contextual connection between Like 15 and19, period!

Doug

 

[jerry63935]

Jesus said "Go and do likewise"!

i hope your not saying Jesus said go and hang yourself

 

[JLB]

Eyes being opened is the root of repentance and a person turning is the fruit of repentance. I believe it is an act on God's part that removes spiritual blindness and opens spiritually closed eyes. In the cases of Jesus opening the eyes of the physically blind, the blind person was powerless against their infirmity; all the willingness and desire on their part was not going to cause their eyes regain sight. As with physical blindness, I am incapable of causing myself to spiritually see; it requires a supernatural act that only God can do. God removes spiritual blindness, upon gaining such sight, we quite naturally stop bumping around like a blind guy.

It’s why Paul proclaims the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


I see this power as grace; The Spirit of grace.


Even confessing Jesus as Lord requires grace.


Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3



Amen.





JLB

 

[JLB]

The Shepherd when He finds the Lost Sheep gives them repentance. Repentance is From Christ the Shepherd of the Sheep.

The Shepherd is in heaven. It’s up to us to go after the lost.

Surely you understand this? Right?



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

because we limit the love of God to humans,

I believe God loves the angels that have not fallen. If the definition of love is 'a volition to favor' then God favors said angels. Do you have evidence to suggest God does not love these angels? Why do you limit God's love to humans?
Aside: we are getting a little off topic

 

[Fastfredy0]

We may call people to repentance, but it seems that God is the one that gives it.

Agreed.
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior and Deliverer, in order to grant repentance to Israel, and [to grant] forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18b “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to eternal life [that is, real life after earthly death].”

Romans 2:4 Or do you have no regard for the wealth of His kindness and tolerance and patience [in withholding His wrath]? Are you [actually] unaware or ignorant [of the fact] that God’s kindness leads you to repentance [that is, to change your inner self, your old way of thinking—seek His purpose for your life]?

James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights”

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hey Ms. Wondering:

What I find interesting is that if a person (or at least the ones I've known) goes through the N.T. on their own, they come to the belief that God loves them, that they need forgiving and that God is willing to forgive them.

This seems to me to be a basic concept found in the N.T. and all theology should derive from this.

*ponders* I've thought on this recently where I define 'this' as ... what is the purpose of God and what is our purpose?
I agree with your statement save the part "all theology should derive from this". I see it a bit differently, not that what you said in not very important.

God’s purpose and man’s purpose are one and the same: to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.

God cannot will any other thing but himself as his end, because there is nothing superior to himself in goodness. Stephen Charnock - Existence and Attributes of God

As there is none more excellent than himself, nothing can be his end but himself (sola Deo Gloria); as he is the cause of all, so he is the end of all; “Of him, and through him, and to him, are all things” (Romans 11:36).

I believe that "all theology should derive from this".

Now, you seem to be a smart fella to me

Good, I've deceived you so far .... *wicked smirk*

HOW is God loving if He does not give me an opportunity to gain heaven by following a set of known rules but just let's me die in the pit, headed straight for hell.

I agree that God does not love those to whom He does not give salvation. The definition of love does not preclude loving person "A" and not loving person "B". Love requires an object, but love does not require that one loves all objects without exception. (Jacob I loved but Esau I hated.)
(My definition of love: Volition to favor.
Conditions for God loving an object: according to the loveliness of the object; the more the object resembles God the more it will be loved as God has infinite loveliness.
How does man become lovely: By being "in Christ". I say God puts a man "in Christ by giving him faith, you say man earns his salvation by salvific belief..)

HOW does God show any mercy to a person who may WANT to be saved, but HE has decided will not be receiving any grace from Him.

Well, we have a disagreement on how the process works IMO. I believe NO ONE wants to be saved (depravity of man, no one seeks God). Thus I don't except your premise that there are those who want to be saved via their own free will. There's a verse that all who seek him He will not turn away ... but none seek Him unless they are first regenerated. I know you don't agreed with me about the process. But that I my answer.

HOW is God just in your theology? Justice means to give to each one what that person deserves.

Every gets what they deserve. You, IMO, conflate justice with mercy. You think to be just one must offer mercy to everyone. Example: I don't think it unjust that the president does not give a pardon to everyone. Those who did not get a pardon still got justice.

We are all lost and deserve to be separated from God at our birth.
God sets rules for how we could become saved.
If the rules are not for everyone....how is it justice?

It is justice as they got what they deserved. But using your logic as I see it, it is unjust for babies to go to heaven as they didn't have to earn via faith. It is unjust to not offer fallen angels a chance to repent. It is unjust that those that don't hear the gospel go to hell (Yeah, I know you think they have a chance, but to most that is a valid point)

If I'm damned because God damned me...how is that justice?

I've often thought is to be unjust to be damned because of Adam's sin. But God is just by definition, so I accept it.

If I pay an eternal price because GOD never gave me the opportunity to be redeemed, how is this justice?

God is under no obligation to grant mercy to everyone. I can understand where you are coming from though.
Sometimes I just wonder "Why me, why did you save me". Here you have an advantage over me, as you believe you have the answer.

You say my belief would lead God to love satan.
God loves HIS CREATION. Satan is an enemy of God.
When God said all is good in Genesis 1:31 was satan present in that statement? Or was satan already an enemy?

Everything God creates or approves of is good.
I don't know for sure if Satan existed before the earth was created. I think so. I assume Satan had fallen before the creation of the earth. At any rate, Satan had fallen before talking to Eve.

God loves all His creation (us) but only those that believe in Him and follow Him will be His children.

"What is agape love?" The Greek word agape means goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love. Agape love involves faithfulness, commitment, and an act of the will. It is distinguished from the other types of love by its lofty moral nature. www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

I agree with the definition above. He does not favor everyone the same. To those He has chosen he loves (favors) much, much more than those He has not chosen. God is holy and this describes all His moral attributes. His love is holy (lofty moral nature) so if He loves the unsaved (sons of Satan) then He cannot but loathe himself as He loathes evil; yet would love that which is evil. (Aside: He loves (favors) everyone to the extent that the rain falls on everyone ... or as the Canadian Bible puts it, the snow fall on everyone)

Only the children of God will enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

Agreed

Jesus did not die to redeem the angels and satan...they are lost forever and will burn in hell.

Agreed. I wondered if you thought this was unjust as you seems to think it unjust of God to not offer everyone a chance to be saved. I was seeing if your definition of justice withstood scrutiny. (In other words, I was trying to poke a hole in your argument *smile*) Tadaisdad (sp?) thought it a straw man argument ... I think it is a good test of your consistency)

And yes, you asking if I love satan is rather insulting. This is not consistant with anything I've posted. And rather a morbid thought on your part.

Apologies. Possibly the statement that God loves everyone the same including the sons of Satan (those not in Christ) is equally insulting to a holy, moral God in which there is no darkness.

and this explains it the best:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Agreed. We disagree as to the source of belief. You say it is yourself and Christ that saved you (you believed, He died and rose again) ... I say Christ alone saved me (He gave me faith and he died and rose again)

As I've said,,,,God is a JUST God...
He loves His creation....but will be just with each person individually.

Agreed... (well, He loved (favored) His creation at first, then he cursed it (unfavor))

I never said God is primarily love...although, yes, I'd say His main attribute is love.
I've always included mercy and justice.

Well, best to define love IMO. A volition to favor and it is ALWAYS HOLY. I contend that your definition of love is at times UNHOLY as you believe God loves that which is sinful and unforgiven (the unsaved). Aside: I believe your intentions are 100% virtuous. ... of course, I am full of ka-ka if I am wrong *smile*

I have distorted nothing.
Read my statements carefully before you come to conclusions as to what others outside of calvinism believe.

Well, it is definitely within the realm of possibilities that I am the one guilty distortions. We both try to do our best IMO.

 

[JLB]

God’s purpose and man’s purpose are one and the same: to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.

Can man glorify God if he is not forgiven, because God loves him?

 

[brightfame52]

The Shepherd is in heaven. It’s up to us to go after the lost.

Surely you understand this? Right?



JLB

I don't agree. The Shepherd is in heaven and He is still the Saviour of the lost. Men can't save the lost.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Apologies....this thing got 'dorked' up ... over 10,000 characters. ... cut and pasted it in .. put you quotes in blue the best I could

Please provide scripture supporting your belief that God chose those He loves before the foundation of the earth.

Define of agape love: volition to favor
Ephesians 1:4 just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ [actually selected us for Himself as His own] before the foundation of the world, so that we would be holy [that is, consecrated, set apart for Him, purpose-driven] and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He predestined and lovingly planned for us to be adopted to Himself as [His own] children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the kind intention and good pleasure of His will—
11 In Him also we have [d]received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will AMP

Notice the words HE CHOSE US ... not WE CHOSE HIM
Notice the words "before the foundation of the world"
Notice the word "predistined" (pre-determined, ordained, planned ahead

Calvinists believe that IT is all about God, non-calvinists tend to concentrate doctrine around themselves in relation to God ... reference beginning of this diatribe where you said:
What I find interesting is that if a person (or at least the ones I've known) goes through the N.T. on their own, they come to the belief that God loves them, that they need forgiving and that God is willing to forgive them.

This seems to me to be a basic concept found in the N.T. and all theology should derive from this.
and I replied:
I see it a bit differently, not that what you said in not very important.
God’s purpose and man’s purpose are one and the same: to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.
Aside: possibly taken out of context...my opinion only



This is an important topic...it never wears me out....
page 1 of 2
how does the saying go on TV .... but wait, there's more .... *smile*

Enjoyed the chat ... thanks for being patient with me and my
I see it a bit differently, not that what you said in not very important.

Too late to go to part 2 of 2 .... got to play with grand kids tomorrow

Aside: Made me cry the other day when my son said his 3 yr old daughter was asked about Jesus and she said: "He up in heaven and He is in my heart." She does really understand IMO, but it was moving.

 

[jasonc]

if Jesus loves all,

reconcile

Romans where Paul says I'm,convenced nothing can separate ..

and ye were separated from God by your sins

God deals with his enemies differennot then we do ,God may hate a unrependent sinner ,but offers the way to be reconciled.

if you doubt this exactly how does a loving God still love those whom he judged to eternal damnation?

note he takes no,pleasure in judging man to he'll nor desires a man to go there ,he'll was created for Satan and his demons first

 

[JLB]

I don't agree. The Shepherd is in heaven and He is still the Saviour of the lost. Men can't save the lost.

The Spirit of Christ works in us to bring reconcilliation to those who are lost.


He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” John 21:16



JLB