The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[Quantrill]

I'd have to say YES, the God as you have described Him is not worthy of my worship and acceptance.
And since God instilled in man the need for God,,,just as Augustine (Calvin's hero) stated, we search for a God that can fill our spirit.
The Calvinist God does not match the God I find in the bible.

I'll say that at times hearing that God is Love when a person credits Him with no other attributes, it makes me wonder if they really know God at all.
This is because God is love....but He also has other attributes of character that can't be overlooked.

To answer all of the above situations (except the crucifixion of Jesus which is different) we have to remember that God is not only love and merciful...
but He is also just. The attributes and morals that man seeks are found in God and have been passed down to us. So man seeks justice because God is a God of justice.

Under your paradigm, I cannot see how God can be just.
He destroyed whole cities and populations.
He will send the vast majority of persons to hell, just as Jesus stated - the road to heaven is narrow.

Under my paradigm God can do all of the above and still be a God of love, mercy and justice.
Why? Because He has let us know what He expects from us and what we are to do to remain as His children.
All of the above were not His children.

He cannot be a just God unless He gives to every man what he deserves, which is what justice is.
How can any man deserve hell if he did nothing to merit it? If it was God that sent him there with no action on the man's part?

If God causes me to sin and then punishes me for it, how is that justice?
If I sin on my own and because I want to and decide to sin...and I end up in hell because I didn't obey God...then we can say that God is a just God.


I'd like to say that I also don't understand how SOVEREIGNTY has anything to do with free will since the reformed believe we cannot have free will because God is sovereign.

Definition of sovereign​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty
b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere
c: an acknowledged leader : ARBITER
2: any of various gold coins of the United Kingdom

sovereign
adjective
sov·er·eign | \ ˈsä-v(ə-)rən , -vərn also ˈsə- \
variants: or less commonly sovran
Definition of sovereign (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: superlative in quality
b: of the most exalted kind : SUPREMEsovereign virtue
c: having generalized curative powersa sovereign remedy
d: of an unqualified nature : UNMITIGATEDsovereign contempt
e: having undisputed ascendancy : PARAMOUNT
2a: possessed of supreme powera sovereign ruler
b: unlimited in extent : ABSOLUTE
c: enjoying autonomy : INDEPENDENTsovereign states
3: relating to, characteristic of, or befitting a supreme ruler : ROYALa sovereign right

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sovereign


Why can't God have all of the above AND give us free will?

I would like to say first that I am not a thorough going Calvinist, though much of what I believe Calvin did also. My point is, I am not arguing for Calvinism.

I agree that many see God as love only, which is a false picture of God.

When you say under my paradigm God cannot be just, what do you mean? What have I said that would make God unjust?

I agree that God can do all those things I described, and still be a God of love, mercy, and justice.

If God gave everyman what he deserves, everyman would go to hell. Christians included. Did Christ 'deserve' what He got at the Cross? No. He didn't get what he deserved. Was God unjust? Does man deserve to be righteous and go to Heaven? No. Man doesn't get what he deserves. Is God unjust?

I agree with you that those who go to hell are not the people of God.

You do sin on your own, because you want to, and decided to. Just as Adam and Eve did. Are you saying that you never sinned on your own? From your view, it appears that every one is as Adam and Eve were and then sinned. If you have ever sinned on your own, then you deserve Hell. Correct? That would be justice. Christ wouldn't have to die for something He never did. Christ wouldn't have to endure the 'injustice' of God. (Last statement for emphasis only)

As I am not arguing from the point of Calvinism, neither am I arguing from the point of Reformed. Though many things the Reformed believe, I may believe also. Concerning the will, I do not believe man has 'free will'. He has a will. But only God has free will. For a will to be free, it must be free from any outside influence. Only God has that. Man's will is bombarded constantly with outside influence. Man is placed in positions where he has to decide, but doesn't want to decide as neither decision will result in what he really wills.

I do believe God is sovereign and man has a will.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

I agree with Quantrill. You never/rarely answer questions so I see not need to enlighten you.

Still waiting for your theodicy to vindicate of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil so we can compare it to the WCF viewpoint.

you continue to use strawman arguments and have not been able to show ONE verse from the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, that is supposed to teach the LIES in the WCF, that The HOLY God of the Bible, could ever, not only be PLEASED to allow the fall of the human race. But, that He also PLANNED to ORDER this sinning, for His Glory???

You have also FAILED to show, HOW can God remain HOLY and JUST, to PLEASE, PLAN, ORDER the sinning of our first parents, and then say that He HATES sin, and DESTROYED the then human race, except for 8 righteous people, because of the SIN that He was PLEASED with and PLANNED and ORDERED, in the first place?

 

[Quantrill]

Finally to post no. 44

Acts 15:18 simply states that God knew the plan all along...agreed.
I looked up only Isaiah 14:24 which states that God planned the defeat of the Assyrians when they entered into Israel.

Calvinists use the O.T. a lot because it seems to agree more with that belief system...that God planned everything from the beginning.

It would certainly seem so...except that the O.T. is the beginning of a revelation of God....as the books progress, we find that God is revealed
more and more until we get to the N.T.

In the O.T. everything that happened was attributed to God.

When a prophet spoke, he was being God's oracle....
A very brave person who heard the voice of God and wrote down what he heard.

One either has to come to some terms with the O.T. or accept that God is deterministic and this truly must be untrue since we would just be a game being played out.

Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God.
I think we should put our focus on what Jesus taught.

I'd say that God allows evil...He allowed Israel to be taken by the Assyrians and the Babylonians for whatever His purpose was,,,maybe to teach them not to abandon their God...Babylon is the picture of all those that do not love God but oppose Him. (Rev 14:8)

If God allows evil, it does not give a reply to the question of theodicy. But it does keep His character in tact.
If God creates evil (as in your paradigm) it gives a reply to the problem of theodicy, but it changes the character and nature of God.





We can only know what we know. We shouldn't add to the stories in the bible.
The tree might have been put there as a test for the humans.
God didn't plan for Adam and Eve to sin....He allowed them to sin..they had free will (even Calvin believes this, I think I posted the source).

God knew satan was in the garden...there's nothing God does not know.

If God planned for Adam and Eve to sin...why did He curse them?
Again,,,we face God's justice.
If they had free will He was just for expelling them from the Garden.
If God planned for them to sin and He expelled them, then how would He be a God of justice?
How did He treat them as they deserved?



Please explain better what the plan of God was for man.
I don't understand how the fall could cause true sons and daughters.

Why wouldn't free will fit better?


How is evil to God's glory?

God does not react to events...this is not what non-calvinists believe.
God knows all and allows all, and sometimes He even PLANS certain events.

But not everything and not each individual person's salvation with no in-put from the person.

Christians should use both Old and New Testaments alot. The New Testament Scripture does not replace the Old Testament Scripture. It adds to it. The New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. What the Christian believes should be based upon both Old and New Testament Scripture.

I agree, revelation from God is progressive. (Is. 28:9-10)

My view is that the fall of man was part of the plan of God. What you call 'deterministic'. You thus say, to believe that we would just be a 'game played out'. I hear this accusation quite alot. I believe that is an unfair statement. To identify the plan of God as a childs silly game is quite insulting, to God, not to me. For, either way you believe, you have the plan of God. And either way you believe, that plan is being played out. Unless God does not have a plan and He is just reacting and, as I said before, trying to salvage as much as He can from what satan and fallen man has done. Is that your God?

Concerning what 'Jesus taught', He taught mostly Old Testament. Even when resurrected. (Luke 24:44-46)

I don't believe I ever said God created evil. I have said that God created the personification of evil when He created satan, though He created him perfect. And, that He created man with the ability to sin, though he too was created perfect.

You say my view changes the nature of God. I disagree. If all you are looking at is the fall of man, you might say that. But the fall is just the very beginning of God's plan.

Well, of course we can only know what we know. I haven't added anything to Scripture. I have asked questions based upon what Scripture says.

You say the Tree in the garden might have been for a test. Why? Did God not know? You said there is nothing God does not know. If God knew they would fall, which He did, then why put the Tree and satan in there? Why didn't God destroy satan when satan rebelled in the first place? Then all of this could be avoided. Why? Because God had a plan. And the fall of man was part of that plan. And the Redemption of man was part of that plan.

God would have been just in destroying satan the moment He rebelled. Why did God 'allow' satan to live as long as he has? Your use of 'allow' doesn't free you from your accusation to me that God is unjust.

God didn't curse Adam and Eve. He cursed satan and the ground. (Gen. 3:14) (Gen. 3:17) Again, the plan of God does not end with the fall. It ends with man being born-again as true sons and daughters of God, clothed in the righteousness of Christ, secure to live forever with God and Christ.

Why is the fall necessary for God to begot true sons and daughters? The only answer is because God says so. It is a principle established by God. Life out of death. (John 12:24) Adam and Eve in the garden were perfect, but not born of God. Adam was a son of God in the same sense that the angels are sons of God. They are created by God. Out of death and resurrection we are begotten of God. (1 Peter 1:3) Sort of like the story of Pinocchio.

You ask why wouldn't 'free will' fit better? First of all, because man's will would not work. Adam and Eve are the example of that. The impartation of the Spirit of God into man could come only by Resurrection .

I didn't say evil was to God's glory. I don't attribute evil to God. God's plan for the fall of man was not evil. It was holy, righteous, and good. As all that God does is. Again, the fall is just the start of God's plan for man.

If you don't believe God 'reacts' to anything, then your use of 'allow' makes the Fall part of God's plan also.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

My view is that the fall of man was part of the plan of God

So, God made as part of His order of things, that after the Creation of the universe, after which He said, that they were all "Good"; to arrange that Adam and Eve, whom He Himself had created as "perfect" humans, to sin, disobey, and rebel against Him? Adam and Eve follow what God had PLANNED and ORDERED, and sinned, disobeyed and rebelled against Him; and then God punishes them for DOING what He Himself had PLANNED and ORDERED? HOW can God be Just any any way, if He punishes people for doing what He PLANNED and ORDERED that they do??? This "logic" makes God into someone who is not sane, and double-minded and erratic in His behaviour!

What UTTER RUBBISH!!!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Can anyone show from the Bible, where it says that our sins are for the Glory of God?

 

[Quantrill]

So, God made as part of His order of things, that after the Creation of the universe, after which He said, that they were all "Good"; to arrange that Adam and Eve, whom He Himself had created as "perfect" humans, to sin, disobey, and rebel against Him? Adam and Eve follow what God had PLANNED and ORDERED, and sinned, disobeyed and rebelled against Him; and then God punishes them for DOING what He Himself had PLANNED and ORDERED? HOW can God be Just any any way, if He punishes people for doing what He PLANNED and ORDERED that they do??? This "logic" makes God into someone who is not sane, and double-minded and erratic in His behaviour!

What UTTER RUBBISH!!!

Yes, as I said, the Fall of Man was part of the plan of God. And I have presented in the Scriptures why I believe this.

Can anyone show from the Bible, where it says that our sins are for the Glory of God?

I have been showing exactly that.

You say 'utter rubbish'. Well, that is the same response Paul got. See (Rom. 3:1-7) Please study those verses carefully before you respond in haste.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes, as I said, the Fall of Man was part of the plan of God. And I have presented in the Scriptures why I believe this.


I have been showing exactly that.

You say 'utter rubbish'. Well, that is the same response Paul got. See (Rom. 3:1-7) Please study those verses carefully before you respond in haste.

Quantrill

nothing you have said is supported by the Bible!

 

[Quantrill]

nothing you have said is supported by the Bible!

I knew you wouldn't take my advice.

I just gave you some 'more Scripture'. You turn to your common defense of ignoring them and then just give a general statement.

(Rom. 3:1-7) supports exactly what I have been saying. And, it forsees your reaction to what I have been saying.

All that God does is for His glory. Even the fall of Man.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

I knew you wouldn't take my advice.

I just gave you some 'more Scripture'. You turn to your common defense of ignoring them and then just give a general statement.

(Rom. 3:1-7) supports exactly what I have been saying. And, it forsees your reaction to what I have been saying.

All that God does is for His glory. Even the fall of Man.

Quantrill

So WHY would God punish sinner as what they do is for His Glory???

 

[Quantrill]

So WHY would God punish sinner as what they do is for His Glory???

I gave you the Scripture you asked for. Correct?

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

I gave you the Scripture you asked for. Correct?

Quantrill

No

 

[1pet2_9]

No

The Scripture passage cited seems to indicate that God's glory is increased through our sin, but does not indicate that our sin was meant to serve that purpose or that it was part of God's plan.

 

[1pet2_9]

I just had a thought (mostly because I have not paid the subject enough thought yet):

What if...mankind has a sinful nature, and if God had held back man from sinning, the sinful nature would still be there? Such as (an example): a man tries to sleep with a married woman. The woman says, "Not in a million years." The man did not commit the sin, but still has the sinful nature.

What if God had allowed man to carry through on his sin, so as to highlight his sinful nature; and conversely, God's lack of it? I don't really know what "for God's glory" even means--as if God has any need to impress a race of sinners whom He created himself.

But what if that is all that was intended to be said? Man has a sinful nature, and God thought it fit to allow man to follow through on his sin, so as to make clear that man is sinful, and God is not. God very much had the power to hold man back, but He did not, because it then would not have been as clear that the man is sinful. I have no problem with that. Actually, it makes sense.

 

[feileadhmor]

The Westminster Confession of Faith Says That God was PLEASED With The Fall of The Human Race.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man, https://epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/WCF-ModernEnglish.pdf)

Not only does the WCF say that God was PLEASED to ALLOW Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore the entire human race. But, it goes on to say, that God so PLANNED to ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY.

This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

And ORDER:

“Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

This is 100% AGAINST the Teachings of the Holy Bible, and must be REJECTED, as from hell!

God has perfect aseity and is self derived. God's happiness or lack thereof is not derived from anything outside of Himself, any mention of emotions attributed to God are anthropomorphisms.

 

[Quantrill]

No

Then why did you ask the question in post #(129)? The same question that the Holy Spirit anticipated would be thought of by the enemies of God.

Quantrill

 

[feileadhmor]

So WHY would God punish sinner as what they do is for His Glory???

Why would God create people knowing in advance they would reject Him and were being created ONLY to be sent to Hell for all eternity? There is no way out of this problem Sola, God knows all things all the time, He doesn't "learn" them, God is all knowing - God had to know in advance who would accept or reject Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would like to say first that I am not a thorough going Calvinist, though much of what I believe Calvin did also. My point is, I am not arguing for Calvinism.

You may not be arguing for calvinism,,,but your beliefs are reformed beliefs.
If not...what are we debating??

Calvin taught the following....do you agree?

T.U.L.I.P.

T Man is born TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
U God chooses who will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY (based on nothing at all)
L LIMITED ATONEMENT - Jesus died only for the elect..chosen by God.
I IRRISISTABLE GRACE - The Holy Spirit gives grace for one to become saved which cannot be resisted by the person.
P PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - Those that God has chosen will be saved till the end.


It sound as though you would agree with all...maybe not.

All of Calvinism (the reformed faith) is based on two theories:
1. Man is born totally depraved and unable to come to a saving knowledge of God unless God forces him to.
2. Man has no free will to choose to be saved...and thus God must save whom He will.

Comments?

I agree that many see God as love only, which is a false picture of God.

Agreed.

When you say under my paradigm God cannot be just, what do you mean? What have I said that would make God unjust?

What you have said that would make God unjust is the fact that man cannot come to salvation unless God gives him that grace.

If God does not involve me in my salvation and I have no choice as to whether or not I want to love and serve Him...
HOW could God be just in sending me to hell if I'm one of those looked over?

Justice means giving to a person what that person deserves.
HOW could I deserve hell if it's God that predestined my whole life, including the fact that He did not choose me to know Him?

If God gave everyman what he deserves, everyman would go to hell. Christians included. Did Christ 'deserve' what He got at the Cross? No. He didn't get what he deserved. Was God unjust? Does man deserve to be righteous and go to Heaven? No. Man doesn't get what he deserves. Is God unjust?

Calvinists always bring up the cross. Please could we not discuss this?
Here's why?

God PREDESTINED the cross.
He knew man would fail...
Adam disobeyed God.
He caused all of mankind to fall.
Jesus, the 2nd Adam was a plan by God by which we could be saved.
If it's a PLAN...then it naturally had to be predestined.

I have no problem with the above.

However, I do not believe that God predestined everything that will ever happen because it would mean that God causes us to sin
and thus is sinning Himself...this is impossible.

As to every man deserving hell....
Agreed.

But those who choose Christ will not go to hell...
and herein lies the justice of God...
He offers salvation to all who want it.
John 3:16 is the perfect verse for this.

But we also have
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9

God desires all men to be saved.

I agree with you that those who go to hell are not the people of God.

You do sin on your own, because you want to, and decided to. Just as Adam and Eve did. Are you saying that you never sinned on your own? From your view, it appears that every one is as Adam and Eve were and then sinned. If you have ever sinned on your own, then you deserve Hell. Correct? That would be justice. Christ wouldn't have to die for something He never did. Christ wouldn't have to endure the 'injustice' of God. (Last statement for emphasis only)

OK...so you do NOT believe that God predestined EVERYTHING that ever happened or ever will happen?
Of course I believe I sin of my own volition.
I do NOT believe God causes me to sin because God hates sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 1:6
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Psalm 11:15
The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

As I am not arguing from the point of Calvinism, neither am I arguing from the point of Reformed. Though many things the Reformed believe, I may believe also. Concerning the will, I do not believe man has 'free will'. He has a will. But only God has free will. For a will to be free, it must be free from any outside influence. Only God has that. Man's will is bombarded constantly with outside influence. Man is placed in positions where he has to decide, but doesn't want to decide as neither decision will result in what he really wills.

I do believe God is sovereign and man has a will.

Quantrill

You say that for a will to be free it must be free from any outside influence and that only God has that.
There is no such thing as not having our will influenced by something...this does not mean it's not free.
Our decision for or against something will always be influenced by some outside consideration....
We want to buy a house...can we afford it?

I think you're saying that a free will cannot be COERCED.
This I would agree with.

However, the reformed do believe that our will is coerced....it's call compatible free will and means that God CAUSES
OUR will to be in conformation with HIS will...this is NOT free will as man understands it to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would God create people knowing in advance they would reject Him and were being created ONLY to be sent to Hell for all eternity? There is no way out of this problem Sola, God knows all things all the time, He doesn't "learn" them, God is all knowing - God had to know in advance who would accept or reject Him.

You're right,,,but knowing something in advance does not cause it to happen.

P.S. Welcome to the forum!

 

[GodsGrace]

I just had a thought (mostly because I have not paid the subject enough thought yet):

What if...mankind has a sinful nature, and if God had held back man from sinning, the sinful nature would still be there? Such as (an example): a man tries to sleep with a married woman. The woman says, "Not in a million years." The man did not commit the sin, but still has the sinful nature.

What if God had allowed man to carry through on his sin, so as to highlight his sinful nature; and conversely, God's lack of it? I don't really know what "for God's glory" even means--as if God has any need to impress a race of sinners whom He created himself.

But what if that is all that was intended to be said? Man has a sinful nature, and God thought it fit to allow man to follow through on his sin, so as to make clear that man is sinful, and God is not. God very much had the power to hold man back, but He did not, because it then would not have been as clear that the man is sinful. I have no problem with that. Actually, it makes sense.

Think of your statement above but put free will in the mix....
Do we have free will to sin or not?

If God "held us back" from sinning...we wouldn't have free will.

 

[feileadhmor]

Calvin taught the following....do you agree?

T.U.L.I.P.

T Man is born TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
U God chooses who will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY (based on nothing at all)
L LIMITED ATONEMENT - Jesus died only for the elect..chosen by God.
I IRRISISTABLE GRACE - The Holy Spirit gives grace for one to become saved which cannot be resisted by the person.
P PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - Those that God has chosen will be saved till the end.

Calvin actually didn't "teach" that, the TULIP was the work of the Synord of Dort.

All of Calvinism (the reformed faith) is based on two theories:
1. Man is born totally depraved and unable to come to a saving knowledge of God unless God forces him to.
2. Man has no free will to choose to be saved...and thus God must save whom He will.

Both points are stawmen.

Point 1 should read, "total inability" referring to the salvation. "Depravity" has taken on a different meaning today. God regenerates a sinner making them willing to believe - God never forces anyone to believe. Point 2 denies freewill which is false. Calvinists believe sinners are sinners by nature and by choice. A sinner is not forced to sin and someone born again clearly sees the goodness of the Gospel and believes.