It is good to see that we can agree on this point, Bubba
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
What gave Satan the thought to rebel against God?
- Thread starter Bubba
- Start date
It is good to see that we can agree on this point, Bubba
I would like to go back to the beginning of this thread and what I believe is a problem for the orthodox belief that Satan was at one time without sin. We know that Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan who enters their world of spiritual and physical sinless bliss. Have you ever wondered about the fact that Satan was a mismatch for the two? This leads me to agree at least in part with the Supralapsarian Calvinist crowd, that God planned their fall.
Now, we understand that an outside stimulus (Satan) got the “ball rolling” in regards to sin (evil) entering the world through our first parents, but what stimulus caused Satan to be sinful? As I said in the beginning, if in a perfect environment in the presence of the Triune God, an evil thought entered the mind of Satan (pride), what would keep it from happening again amongst us the redeemed in Glory? I believe this possibility would be very problematic to those who think Satan had been created sinless. Is there someone who maybe can address this conundrum?
I also find it interesting that the same Hebrew word for evil found in Genesis 2:9 for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is also the same word for Isaiah 45:7, “7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things (YLT).” Is it possible that God in fact “prepared evil” in the form of Satan as an instrument to cause a contrast of “good and evil” for our benefit, yet He Himself is not evil?
John 8:44 (New American Standard Bible)
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
1 John 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)
"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
Bubba
Now, we understand that an outside stimulus (Satan) got the “ball rolling” in regards to sin (evil) entering the world through our first parents, but what stimulus caused Satan to be sinful? As I said in the beginning, if in a perfect environment in the presence of the Triune God, an evil thought entered the mind of Satan (pride), what would keep it from happening again amongst us the redeemed in Glory? I believe this possibility would be very problematic to those who think Satan had been created sinless. Is there someone who maybe can address this conundrum?
I also find it interesting that the same Hebrew word for evil found in Genesis 2:9 for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is also the same word for Isaiah 45:7, “7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things (YLT).” Is it possible that God in fact “prepared evil” in the form of Satan as an instrument to cause a contrast of “good and evil” for our benefit, yet He Himself is not evil?
John 8:44 (New American Standard Bible)
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
1 John 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)
"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
Bubba
Last edited by a moderator:
S
sherri2
Guest
Thank you burresor for saying exactly what I would have said.
Bubba you're twisting scripture (or should I say you're quoting other people who have twisted scripture) to back up your points.
Everything God creates is good. Why would he create something that was always evil without the gift of free will and the ability to choose right or wrong? That isn't love. You didn't answer that.
Nor did you answer my points about Gods name and that fact that he calls things what they are.
You ignored my answer and just tried to flood me with a whole lot of information that other people have written to shut me up.
Could you please answer my points..
Last edited by a moderator:
S
sherri2
Guest
PS. You also ignored the point I made about the word 'fallen' regarding lucifer.
You basically ignored everything I brought up.
You flooded us with a lot of historical information about lucifer (the term, baffle them with 'bs') comes to mind. Then tacked on at the end - you think that the scripture that mentions lucifer in the OT is actually only talking about the kind of babylon -
and by doing that you give everyone the impression that everything you just quoted is backing up that point.
You basically ignored everything I brought up.
You flooded us with a lot of historical information about lucifer (the term, baffle them with 'bs') comes to mind. Then tacked on at the end - you think that the scripture that mentions lucifer in the OT is actually only talking about the kind of babylon -
and by doing that you give everyone the impression that everything you just quoted is backing up that point.
Last edited by a moderator:
S
sherri2
Guest
Isiah 14
vs 12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
vs 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
the word heaven means exactly that in the original btw. I haven't noticed that a) the king of babylon was ruling from heaven in the first place or
b) was capable with the technology that was around in that century of acending to heaven and ruling over God.
the passage overall is prophectic regarding the king of babylon, but when scripture doesn't add you, you examine it closer and see what else God is saying. in this instance I think it's a pretty clear reference to the power behind the king of babylon.
especially when you consider the passage in Daniel 10 where the angel who appears to daniel tells him of being opposed by a spiritual being he refers to as 'the prince of persia' and others referred to as the 'king of persia' and the 'prince of greece'.
Dan 10:13
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings* of Persia.
vs 20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come.
*in the origianl hebrew the word is 'melek' which means king.
The passage in Isiah is talking about the downfall that God is going to bring on the king of babylon for his wickedness so it isn't that suprising that he would also mention the downfall of lucifer or the power behind him (since the king of babylon was an idol worshipper) at the same time. And since we also know from daniel that one of the kings of babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) exaulted himself in pride to the point of tempting God with the corresponding punishment, I think the reference is comfortably within context.
Daniel 4
vs 12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
vs 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
the word heaven means exactly that in the original btw. I haven't noticed that a) the king of babylon was ruling from heaven in the first place or
b) was capable with the technology that was around in that century of acending to heaven and ruling over God.
the passage overall is prophectic regarding the king of babylon, but when scripture doesn't add you, you examine it closer and see what else God is saying. in this instance I think it's a pretty clear reference to the power behind the king of babylon.
especially when you consider the passage in Daniel 10 where the angel who appears to daniel tells him of being opposed by a spiritual being he refers to as 'the prince of persia' and others referred to as the 'king of persia' and the 'prince of greece'.
Dan 10:13
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings* of Persia.
vs 20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come.
*in the origianl hebrew the word is 'melek' which means king.
The passage in Isiah is talking about the downfall that God is going to bring on the king of babylon for his wickedness so it isn't that suprising that he would also mention the downfall of lucifer or the power behind him (since the king of babylon was an idol worshipper) at the same time. And since we also know from daniel that one of the kings of babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) exaulted himself in pride to the point of tempting God with the corresponding punishment, I think the reference is comfortably within context.
Daniel 4
Last edited by a moderator:
smaller
Member
Jesus stated that the devil 'abode [past tense] not' in Truth.
IF the DEVIL never had TRUTH in him and ABODE NOT in TRUTH, then logic dictates Satan was NEVER once 'HOLY.'
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Many believers do not, even CAN NOT see that children of the DEVIL were being addressed IN THESE MEN.
It is quite easy, if we accept Jesus' Words again, HOW this happened:
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Were Adam and Eve any different?
NOT if we accept Jesus' statements.
Per the Isaiah 14 chapter, it is QUITE EASY to read therein that GOD through the MOUTH of His Prophet, Isaiah was addressing EVIL SEED.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Who plants the SEED OF EVIL?
Satan.
btw, NONE of us are IMMUNE. We were ALL once BLINDED by the 'god of this world' ....who is...SATAN.
WHO IS also connected to EVERY SIN (1 John 3:8)
WHO also INSERTS temptation into the MIND of BELIEVERS.
s
IF the DEVIL never had TRUTH in him and ABODE NOT in TRUTH, then logic dictates Satan was NEVER once 'HOLY.'
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Many believers do not, even CAN NOT see that children of the DEVIL were being addressed IN THESE MEN.
It is quite easy, if we accept Jesus' Words again, HOW this happened:
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Were Adam and Eve any different?
NOT if we accept Jesus' statements.
Per the Isaiah 14 chapter, it is QUITE EASY to read therein that GOD through the MOUTH of His Prophet, Isaiah was addressing EVIL SEED.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Who plants the SEED OF EVIL?
Satan.
btw, NONE of us are IMMUNE. We were ALL once BLINDED by the 'god of this world' ....who is...SATAN.
WHO IS also connected to EVERY SIN (1 John 3:8)
WHO also INSERTS temptation into the MIND of BELIEVERS.
s
Sherri,
Be honest, did you actually read the article? The article answers your presuppositions in respect to Isaiah 14. I am not trying to "reinvent the wheel" and have no need to "toot my own horn". If there is anything that you disagree with in the article, select it and present it. I will then answer.
Bubba
smaller
Member
The article posted is btw, nonsense Bubba.
Lucifer is NOT "VENUS" but MAN. Why the 'guy' in the article would make a claim for LUCIFER being VENUS is not especially CLEAR in the posting. Perhaps you could make the extension to see what the purpose of that is?
Isaiah 14
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Jesus came to FREE CAPTIVES of SATAN. IF we see SATAN as the captor of MAN, then THERE is also 'his location.' IN MAN, and therefore SATAN is 'a MAN' of SIN and PERDITION because he is IN MAN.
s
Lucifer is NOT "VENUS" but MAN. Why the 'guy' in the article would make a claim for LUCIFER being VENUS is not especially CLEAR in the posting. Perhaps you could make the extension to see what the purpose of that is?
Isaiah 14
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Jesus came to FREE CAPTIVES of SATAN. IF we see SATAN as the captor of MAN, then THERE is also 'his location.' IN MAN, and therefore SATAN is 'a MAN' of SIN and PERDITION because he is IN MAN.
s
S
sherri2
Guest
Ok.
Direct translation from the original greek:
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil and you want to do the desires of your father, He was a murderer from the beginning and (does) not stand in the truth because the truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
beginning = archē
meaning from strongs lexicon -
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
a) of angels and demons
beginning of his creation? or the beginning of his fall.
I think that's a fair point. And that his fall would be so complete that his nature is completly untrustworthy to the point that he is a liar and cannot be trusted at all. And that all lies came from him (due to his change into wickedness and evil) because they weren't there before.
does not stand in truth
not = ou
stand = stēkō
1) to stand firm
2) to persevere, to persist
3) to keep one's standing
in = en
in, by, with etc
truth = alētheia
a) what is true in any matter under consideration
1) truly, in truth, according to truth
2) of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainly
I can't see any past tense in that passage so unless you can prove it otherwise, your argument is invalid.
And none of the other scriptures you've posted back up your point.
theLords
Member
This belief calls God a liar. This belief nullifies the Holiness of God. God is NOT the creator of evil. Lucifer was created by God's perfection and holiness. Lucifer, by himself and within himself, conceived and birthed evil. He coveted, became prideful, became hateful, distrusting of God etc. etc. It can take me a long time to list every sin.
Claiming that God can create evil destroys the very foundation of the Character of God: PURE GOODNESS.
smaller
Member
hmmm? Jes a sec. Let me check w/God:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Sorry. Will have to take God's Word on that matter.
Show it. There is no such statement about "Lucifer" being either perfect or holy anywhere in the scriptures.
hmmm? Jes a sec. Let me check with the scriptures:
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
Sorry. Will have to go with Paul on this one.
IF you say God is evil by 'creating' evil you would be very wrong. In the presentation that GOD IS that which HE CREATES is a foundation of POLYTHEISM.
Yes, God CAN create EVIL, use it, bring GOOD because of that use BECAUSE...He IS GOD. The creation of NO THING makes God THAT THING unless you adhere to POLYTHEISM.
enjoy!
smaller
smaller
Member
Just show one scripture where Satan was HOLY or was once IN TRUTH and yer IN.
Jesus said he 'abode not' in Truth, not abode at some point past and then made a 'bad freewill decision.'
s
theLords
Member
Not every single translation uses the word "evil." (I left out those that did for the sake of space) This must mean that the original Hebrew word is not stating that God creates moral evil. No where here does the Word of God say God created moral evil. No where does it say that God created sin. Is sin not equal to evil? Are they not one and the same?
God's mind is pure, good, holy and righteous. Now how can the God I just described even think an evil/sinful thought? How can the mind of God create an evil thought? God is incapable of sinning.
How can God estrange Himself from Himself? How can God violate His own laws when God is bound to His word?
Mark 3:24-25
If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
If the foundation of the Lord is GOODNESS. Then the ENTIRE Bible testifies to this.
Again, if the foundation is that God is pure goodness then this verse makes perfect sense from within this light.
I did not say God is what He creates did I? I said God is INCAPABLE of creating sin because of His purity.
Satan did not create evil in the sense that he has power to create in the way God can. Rather, he killed the goodness within him. Is evil not the absence of good?
Is God's "evil" that allows a hurricane to ravish a sinful city which in turn leads them to repent and seek the Lord, evil or holy mercy? Is God's "evil" that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in fire and brimstone, evil or holy justice?
You're definition of evil is way off.
Have you read the other posts I have written? The only place I know of that we get the idea that Lucifer fell from heaven because of pride is Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Isaiah 14 is not difficult, at least for me to see that it is the King of Babylon spoken of and not Satan. The word “Lucifer” which comes from a Latin translation is better translated as “morning star or day star”, which the article I included speaks to this issue. Ezekiel 28 is more problematic, mainly due to its beginning of speaking directly about the King of Tyre and then this elevation to almost mythological proportions drawing from its own pagan culture and the Bible, which to me is the genre of prophetic literature of both Isaiah and Ezekiel. The emphasis is on just how great a fall from the height of power these arrogant kings descended. You see a similar prophetic pronouncement upon pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel 31:8-9 using also the Biblical terms of Eden.
In regards to the character of God, I believe Him to be Holy, loving and merciful, but He nonetheless uses evil as He please as both a first cause (in the case of Satan) and second cause (the use of evil men for the working out of His purposes).
Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;"
Even with His own Son, evil itself became a tool God uses as a 'means' to accomplish His greatest purpose, the salvation of man. The fact that God uses evil, therefore, is no proof that it makes Him less than good or holy. Instead, God's ability to bring good out of evil proves He is sovereign as well as loving to mankind.
Bubba
smaller
Member
Oh, I have no 'issues' with believing that statement EXACTLY as the KJV stated. Many can not believe their own eyes, and have sought to RE-WRITE that scripture as they have many others. Though I use the NIV when it suits me, the translation is horrible and the texts are largely decimated therein. Such translations are of the dynamic equivalent style and not an attempt at a literal translation. As such the texts are open to HUGE amounts of error. There are 'word for word' translations, 'thought for thought' translations, and 'paraphrased tranlations.' To me they deteriorate from left to right.
That being said, God still managed to reach my own heart in part by reading The Living Bible, which after reading the first 3 Gospels and actually being able to understand them, I switched to a Revised English Standard and read John. God touched me within, nevertheless, to confirm what I'd read. I will never forget that moment.
Already stated prior. God IS in fact SURPASSINGLY Great Enough to both CREATE and USE evil for HIS INTENDED PURPOSES, which we might even presume to be GOOD upon COMPLETION.
Fairly simple principle. Pick ANY created THING, ANY created POWER...then see GOD IS GREATER and thus ABLE to do these types of things.
See prior. God can create ANYthing and USE IT for His Purposes and still REMAIN PERFECT because HE IS GOD.
Uh, not by Gods Own Words. It was God speaking through Isaiah that SAID...
I CREATE EVIL.
There are many more scriptures that show that God does USE evil, particularly in RETRIBUTIVE fashions. The entire O.T. is largely a DEPICTION of Gods USES of 'retributive evil.'
God IS PERFECT. WE have 'no way' to define 'what that is' or consists of. Only God can know the FULLNESS of HIMSELF. Only God knows FULLY what HE IS. All others are sub-par guessers.
God creates EVIL by His Own Statements and shows same by HIS OWN ACTIONS.
Was it EVIL to see THE PERFECT SON OF GOD killed? There was NO CAUSE for that death and there is NO extracting GOD away from being FULLY INVOLVED in that matter.
From the EVIL displayed IN HIS DEATH, God again MAKES GOOD come from that action. We cannot VAUNT the power of EVIL to be OVER God and God UNABLE to both 'create and use' same for His Greater Purposes.
Paul stated in Romans 11:32 that GOD BOUND all men to disobedience. That BINDING came with A DIVINE PURPOSE at the root of this matter. Go read it and see HOW DISOBEDIENCE serves GOD.
No, evil is not the 'absence of good.' Evil is A POWER.
Sorry, you may just need to get God a little higher up on the scale to see that He can and does both create and USE evil because HE IS ABLE to make GOOD from the use of same. Not a problem with God.
He Is God, after all.
I believe God created Satan as A PERFECT DEVIL from the beginning. A PERFECT devil is a DEVIL in any case of PERFECTION, and certainly not HOLY PERFECT.
Terms themselves are deceptive. Many people read the word perfect and forget the 'action of resistance' that term is attached to.
God 'created' the destroyer to DESTROY and destroy he does, just as God made him to do.
Isaiah 54:16
"See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc
I have no problem with God creating and using evil. I might think it much worse if evil created itself without Gods Involvments and is still creating and flourishing all on it's own.
enjoy!
smaller
theLords
Member
No. They are much to long and hard to read because of the formating. They are articles based on others opinions who are twisting the scriptures (this I read from another poster). How can I trust the source? Do you go into a mosque and ask them to teach you the Scriptures or do you go to a church with a Holy Spirit filled pastor?
theLords
Member
You didn't answer not ONE of my questions to you, but rather used circular reasoning to dance your way around them.
Are you a universalist?
smaller
Member
I've ALREADY made my statement on this matter and it is FROM the scriptures, which I BELIEVE.
ALL vessels of HONOUR will receive MERCY.
ALL vessels of DISHONOUR will be TOSSED into the LAKE OF FIRE forever and ever meaning OF ENDLESS DURATION.
s
theLords
Member
Okay, then you are not a a universalist. That's all I needed to know. I can now recognize that your cornerstone is Christ.
So then, brother in Christ, I'm going to bow out of this conversation. We are not getting anywhere. We are not seeing eye to eye. We are not producing any good fruits within this discussion. We're not going to agree. We both believe in the omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence of our Lord. That's all that matters. As long as we are rooted in the Word we are safe from Satan's deception. Only God can give the true answer and when we get to heaven we can ask Him.
smaller
Member
You are right. I do prefer to engage with specifics from the texts rather than the MANY imaginations that are available that are simply NOT TRUE.
I am not led to believe things that are contrary to the texts if I can avoid it.
Word has FINAL SAY.
In any case I believe you are a believer, and as such I also believe you are saved. I can't measure any better than that to any believer.
When PERFECT understanding comes, all of these matters will be put to rest in all of us.
IN the meantime we all see only IN PART. None of us should beat each other with our respective PARTIAL seeing.
enjoy!
smaller