S
savedbygrace57
Guest
cass
Thats no excuse, they were taught lies not found in the bible !
Thats no excuse, they were taught lies not found in the bible !
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
I had been thinking for some time that you have this great need to place yourself above the Apostles and the Holy Spirit who gave them ALL Truth.
If the Apostles did not received God's revelation and then did not evenually write some of it down, just how do you have a Bible in the first place. Did God drop it into your lap and then give you a vision as to what it means?
On the other hand, instead of making just a bare assertion, you could actually give some historical evidence. For you that would be a pure miracle.
At this point, not much of what you say has any relevance.
O
Osgiliath
Guest
I am now entirely convinced SBG is a computer that was programmed to send out nonstop Calvinist data. Remember the computer "HAL" from the film, 2001: A Space Odyssey? SBG is like "HAL." However, because this computer is Calvinist, I'm renaming him "CAL" :eyebrow
Evern 'supercal" would be very appropriate.
smaller
Member
I think we got to the bottom of CAL's intentions the other day, and his underlying position is actually one he can not even discuss here because it's considered well outside the norm of acceptable presentations, even in Calvin's world.
So he may claim 'challenge' any given set of findings, but the heart of the matters he can not discuss.
s
O
Osgiliath
Guest
They are outside the parameters of his default subroutines. The pre-programmed arguments must remain within the given corresponding parameters. This is why a direct, specific response is not possible.
I love ya SBG - Just kidding around with ya ;)
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Acting as High Priest !
If Christ in Jn 17:9 was acting as High Priest, and no doubt He was since He was about to sacrifice Himself Jn 17:19
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Note: This Sanctification denotes His Death !
This being the case, He would be performing the duties of the High Priest in His Prayer in Jn 17:9, its called intercession Heb 7:25-26, Now since Christ expressly said, that He intercedes not in behalf of the whole world of mankind in general, then there is no ground whatsoever to say that His Sacrificial death of Himself Jn 17:19 was for mankind in general ! It's pretty simple, since He did not intercede for everyone without exception, then He did not die for everyone without exception, and when He said here Jn 17:9,19,20 still applies to day !
To preach that Christ died or sacrificed Himself for the whole world without exception, for everyone in that sense, is preaching a false Gospel !
If Christ in Jn 17:9 was acting as High Priest, and no doubt He was since He was about to sacrifice Himself Jn 17:19
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Note: This Sanctification denotes His Death !
This being the case, He would be performing the duties of the High Priest in His Prayer in Jn 17:9, its called intercession Heb 7:25-26, Now since Christ expressly said, that He intercedes not in behalf of the whole world of mankind in general, then there is no ground whatsoever to say that His Sacrificial death of Himself Jn 17:19 was for mankind in general ! It's pretty simple, since He did not intercede for everyone without exception, then He did not die for everyone without exception, and when He said here Jn 17:9,19,20 still applies to day !
To preach that Christ died or sacrificed Himself for the whole world without exception, for everyone in that sense, is preaching a false Gospel !
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savedbygrace57
Guest
I lay down my Life for the Sheep !
Christ has already stated specifically for whom He laid down His life for, do you believe Him is the question ? Jn 10:11-15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Therefore the OUR SINS in 1 Cor 15:3 would refer to the Sheep !
Christ says that He knows His Sheep Vs 14 which we understand to meaneth He foreknew them all Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
And it should also be made clear that one does not have to be a believer in Christ to be one of His Sheep, for this is understood by Christ statement ' Other Sheep I have that are not of this fold [ethnic jews, but of the gentiles also] of which He says, them also I must bring, and they SHALL HEAR MY VOICE, which is the Gospel of their Salvation, and by that Hearing, Faith comes. Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
At that time, those Sheep in the gentiles, were unbelievers and Idolaters, but they were still His Sheep that He had. He had them because the Father had gave them to Him, and this ensured that they would Hear His Voice and Believe, another way of saying what He said in Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
They are given to Christ before they come to Him or Believe in Him !
Yet many deceivers would have us believe that one is not a Sheep of Christ until after they believe, which has now been proven to be error, a lie, by Christ's very words ! " Other Sheep I have" yet being uncalled by the Gospel as of yet to Gospel Faith and Obedience.
Note: Even the unbelieving Sheep are never the goats, that shall hear this words soon Matt 25:33,41
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
And it is a lie, and cannot be supported by scripture that Christ laid down His Life for the goats , and He never said He did !421
Christ has already stated specifically for whom He laid down His life for, do you believe Him is the question ? Jn 10:11-15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Therefore the OUR SINS in 1 Cor 15:3 would refer to the Sheep !
Christ says that He knows His Sheep Vs 14 which we understand to meaneth He foreknew them all Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
And it should also be made clear that one does not have to be a believer in Christ to be one of His Sheep, for this is understood by Christ statement ' Other Sheep I have that are not of this fold [ethnic jews, but of the gentiles also] of which He says, them also I must bring, and they SHALL HEAR MY VOICE, which is the Gospel of their Salvation, and by that Hearing, Faith comes. Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
At that time, those Sheep in the gentiles, were unbelievers and Idolaters, but they were still His Sheep that He had. He had them because the Father had gave them to Him, and this ensured that they would Hear His Voice and Believe, another way of saying what He said in Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
They are given to Christ before they come to Him or Believe in Him !
Yet many deceivers would have us believe that one is not a Sheep of Christ until after they believe, which has now been proven to be error, a lie, by Christ's very words ! " Other Sheep I have" yet being uncalled by the Gospel as of yet to Gospel Faith and Obedience.
Note: Even the unbelieving Sheep are never the goats, that shall hear this words soon Matt 25:33,41
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
And it is a lie, and cannot be supported by scripture that Christ laid down His Life for the goats , and He never said He did !421
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Particular Salvation for the Children !
Heb 2:14-16
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
There is just no way to preach the True Gospel without emphasis on whose sins Christ died for, and it certainly was not for the sins of all men without exception, for scripture never particularly states that, however on many occasions it does particularly states exactly for whom Christ died for or gave Himself for, for instance here in Eph 5:25, the inspired testimony here is that He particularly gave Himself as an Offering for the Church !
Now lets look at another passage that specifically states whom Christ died for Heb 2:14-16, The Children, for notice it reads " for the Children took part of flesh and blood" both in their, both in their Federal Natural Head Adam at Creation, and individually at their own physical birth, He [ Their Head Spiritually] took on the same, that is a Physical Existence in Flesh and Blood, and fir what purpose, it was to deliver them [The Children], for He came to specifically, and particularly deliver or release them from the fear of death, and the way He did that was for their sake abolish Death altogether 2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Note: None for whom Christ died shall ever see Death, because it has for them been abolished !
So its impossible for anyone Christ died for to ever experience this Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Heb 2:14-16
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
There is just no way to preach the True Gospel without emphasis on whose sins Christ died for, and it certainly was not for the sins of all men without exception, for scripture never particularly states that, however on many occasions it does particularly states exactly for whom Christ died for or gave Himself for, for instance here in Eph 5:25, the inspired testimony here is that He particularly gave Himself as an Offering for the Church !
Now lets look at another passage that specifically states whom Christ died for Heb 2:14-16, The Children, for notice it reads " for the Children took part of flesh and blood" both in their, both in their Federal Natural Head Adam at Creation, and individually at their own physical birth, He [ Their Head Spiritually] took on the same, that is a Physical Existence in Flesh and Blood, and fir what purpose, it was to deliver them [The Children], for He came to specifically, and particularly deliver or release them from the fear of death, and the way He did that was for their sake abolish Death altogether 2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Note: None for whom Christ died shall ever see Death, because it has for them been abolished !
So its impossible for anyone Christ died for to ever experience this Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
V
VirginShallConceive
Guest
What do you think is the ultimate fate of, let's say, the uncontacted people that belong to the tribes of the Amazon that have already died?
The constant and consistent theme in the Bible is that to be saved, each person has to make the choice to repent and ask for God to forgive; His forgiveness is freely given to anyone who would repent. Other verses, such as Peter told the prison warden, "believe ... you and your family will be saved" does not mean that the warden's family is saved by his confession. Instead, verses such as these have to be seen in larger context of the Scripture.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
jack
Thats false and I have given a thread full of posts why !
Thats false and I have given a thread full of posts why !
I am not sure of your position on Romans 5:18. It is a verse frequently quoted by universalists and those of an arminian persuasion. Do you believe in universal justification? Of course then you could not believe in justification by faith unless you also believe that God will bring all men to faith.
Would you be interested in looking at the context of Romans 5:18?
You believe God is going to save all men regardless of what?
Regardless if they believe or not?
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."... How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
Please explain how God will save someone who doesn't choose to believe in Jesus Christ and the price He paid on the cross?
JLB
Edward, when I ask if your interested in a discussion of the context, you send a monologue. This means your not interested in what I have to say?
First, let me post the key phrase from verse 18... " so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."
I understand you to be saying that there is universal justification, and every man that ever was born is justified. Then you seem to be saying that this universal justification that comes upon all men does not result in universal salvation for each and every man. So then do some justified people go to hell?
Not necessarily. The door must be available to all men to be rejected by those who do not believe. There's no inherent contradiction in saying he died for all men and he died for his sheep. So both sides in this discussion are equally right and equally wrong; the freewillers because belief isn't a choice, and the ones who argue against freewill because they deny the power of God to have mercy on whoever he wills, even showing mercy to those who were previously predestined to be burned, provided they believe. As for the sheep, they know the Lord and they follow him.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
mark
Yes necessarily !
Yes necessarily !
Romans 5:18 ....even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
Justification can (at times) be defined as "that moment when God, as the Divine judge, bangs his gavel and declares the believing sinner to be innocent of all sins and trespasses." It is in many contexts a forensic term which means "to acquit."
There is no such thing as "potential justification." A person is either justified, or he is a sinner.
Now as you say above "you have to receive it." Well, there are certain passages in Acts which says "they received the word." The better term is "faith." Faith is the only human requirement for justification.
( Of course in some systems of theology, there is initial justification at baptism, but lets leave all that stuff out for now and try to keep it as simple as I can for you.)
If faith is the only human requirement, and not all men have faith, then it is so evident that not all men are justified.
So then, we still have to ask the question "why does Romans 5:18 use the phrase "all men to justification of life." To answer this we must look at the immediate context. Lets go back to verse 15. The context is verse 15 is speaking of two kinds of humanity that has two separate federal heads. Verse 15 reads.... "But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. " The first part of verse 15 alludes back to verse 12. Death comes by sin (the sin of Adam, not individual sin). By the trespass of Adam, many die in Adams sin. The second part of the verse compares this to those who are in Christ. They receive grace. Notice the term in verse 15 is not the term "all" but the term "many." Now lets think about the semantics here.
There are two ways to say that those in Adam go to judgement. We could say "many go to judgement" or we could say "all in Adam go to judgement." Of course the same is true of the 2nd part of verse 15. "The gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many" or as is talking about in verse 15 concerning those in Christ. How many in Christ will receive "justification of life?" Of course since verse 18 is speaking of those in Adam and those in Christ, it uses the term "all."
This relates to a doctrine called "original sin." The pelagians denied original sin and the Autistinians affirmed it.
Well, I sincerely hope we can have a doctrine that is more in common if we meet elsewhere. I cannot accept that Christs shed blood provides only a partial, possibility of salvation or justification. I am guessing you will say you were not implying that, and I believe you. Also, my tone has been a little harsh. For that I apologize, and also for that I should withdraw.
Actually, no, I am not. The correct understanding of justification is important. The doctrine of sola fide, or justification by faith alone is a cornerstone of correct theology. If you get justification wrong, the whole superstructure of your theology is going to be wrong. Martin Luther once said that "as goes the doctrine of justification, so goes the Church." Also, in the history of the Church, the only people reading the doctrine of a universal justification are the universalists who believe all are saved.
Sigh... If I can lift the bar a little and just say I too believe in sola fide, or faith alone. However, I am affirming sola fide here and not the old "Charles Finney" decisional theology. Yes, I am using old theological terms that you may not understand, but let me try to explain a little. After this, I will probably withdraw from the conversation because I am uncomfortable with certain things in our conversation and I do not think there is a possibility that our conversation can have any good fruit here. So after this, you can say what you want, and we can maybe meet elsewhere and be in a better fellowship.
Justification can (at times) be defined as "that moment when God, as the Divine judge, bangs his gavel and declares the believing sinner to be innocent of all sins and trespasses." It is in many contexts a forensic term which means "to acquit."
There is no such thing as "potential justification." A person is either justified, or he is a sinner.
Now as you say above "you have to receive it." Well, there are certain passages in Acts which says "they received the word." The better term is "faith." Faith is the only human requirement for justification.
( Of course in some systems of theology, there is initial justification at baptism, but lets leave all that stuff out for now and try to keep it as simple as I can for you.)
If faith is the only human requirement, and not all men have faith, then it is so evident that not all men are justified.
So then, we still have to ask the question "why does Romans 5:18 use the phrase "all men to justification of life." To answer this we must look at the immediate context. Lets go back to verse 15. The context is verse 15 is speaking of two kinds of humanity that has two separate federal heads. Verse 15 reads.... "But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. " The first part of verse 15 alludes back to verse 12. Death comes by sin (the sin of Adam, not individual sin). By the trespass of Adam, many die in Adams sin. The second part of the verse compares this to those who are in Christ. They receive grace. Notice the term in verse 15 is not the term "all" but the term "many." Now lets think about the semantics here.
There are two ways to say that those in Adam go to judgement. We could say "many go to judgement" or we could say "all in Adam go to judgement." Of course the same is true of the 2nd part of verse 15. "The gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many" or as is talking about in verse 15 concerning those in Christ. How many in Christ will receive "justification of life?" Of course since verse 18 is speaking of those in Adam and those in Christ, it uses the term "all."
This relates to a doctrine called "original sin." The pelagians denied original sin and the Autistinians affirmed it.
If you go before a judge, and he says "well, I will potentially justify you (acquit you, or declare you innocent), and you walk out and refuse to receive that justification, they would still not let you in prison. Those bars keep the inmates in, and you out. Once you have faith, you are justified no matter if you receive it or not. There is no such thing as a potential justification, and the concept of a potential salvation is completely unscriptural. Such doctrine would obviously head toward a works salvation.
Well, I sincerely hope we can have a doctrine that is more in common if we meet elsewhere. I cannot accept that Christs shed blood provides only a partial, possibility of salvation or justification. I am guessing you will say you were not implying that, and I believe you. Also, my tone has been a little harsh. For that I apologize, and also for that I should withdraw.