Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[dadof10]

I have already produced the proof. You reject it.

You produced a verse? I must have missed it. Which one?

 

[Alabaster]

More "works", huh? Now we MUST repent, and "exercise faith" to be saved. Can't wait to see what requirement is in your next post. I'm sure you will still claim that in your system salvation is a " free gift from God that can't be earned".

Salvation is a free gift of God and we can do NOTHING to earn it.



Isaiah 55:1 NLT

Invitation to the Lord’s Salvation

“Is anyone thirsty?
Come and drink—
even if you have no money!
Come, take your choice of wine or milk—
it’s all free!


Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.


Romans 5:16 NLT
And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins.


Romans 6:23 NLT
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.




What do you believe you have to do for salvation? Give scripture to prove yourself.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus knew that we cannot keep the commandments for salvation. Don't you know this, too? We are witnessing Jesus handling with love a young man whose faith is in his riches.




Of course! Unless you are a rich man, satisfied that you have not transgressed any commandment of God.

We receive eternal life by acknowledging our hopeless state before the holy God and receiving Jesus Christ's great forgiveness by His shed blood on Calvary and we follow after Him with our lives. He said, "Follow Me."

If you dispute this, then you have been deceived by a gospel of works for salvation.

Jesus says we receive eternal life by keeping the commandments. If I studied salvation like you, I would simply add an "alone" at the end, ignore or explain away all verses that seemingly contradict MY view, and bring up the "rich, young man" as the standard every time I broached the subject irrespective of situation.

I notice when you use the Thief as a universal example of salvation, you totally ignore his situation, but when I bring up the rich, young man, you take his situation into account so you can explain away our Lord's words.

This is quite illustrative of the "alone" crowd. You are bringing your preconceived doctrine into the text then twisting the text to suit it.

 

[Alabaster]

First of all, "already saved" people aren't sinners? Are you saved? So, you don't sin? Really?

Saved people are not referred to as sinners in scripture---they are saints, brethren, elect, the church.

Secondly, I know there are examples in Scripture of people who repent then are baptized, but where is it written that "baptism is for the already saved"?...What am I thinking... I forgot who I was talking to. Like you're actually going to back up any of your ridiculous notions with Scripture...

You are one rude man!

I can back up everything I believe with Scripture, but you cannot, nor do you care to, as you do not hold inspired Scripture to be authoritative.

We are called to repent---then be baptized. NO ONE EVER is called to be baptized who has not come to faith in Christ, nor is there any instance of it in the Bible---should we baptize such a person.

Here are your exact words:

"No, accepting Jesus is not a work. It is a false Gospel to attach baptism to the FREE GIFT of salvation, however. There is nothing we can do to be saved apart from the faith we exercise to believe."

We must "exercise faith" to be saved. Isn't that what the above says? If we MUST DO something to merit salvation, how is this not "works salvation" by your own definition?

Acting on the faith that COMPELS us to Christ is not a work we do. It is a work the HOLY SPIRIT DOES.

John 6:44 NLT
For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

Tell me, what do the babies (the beneficiaries of the Grace) do to merit salvation? If the answer is "nothing", which it is, then, according to Catholic teaching, salvation is by Grace alone.

Babies are positionally innocent before God. They do not require baptism, as they cannot grasp their standing as sinners and therefore CANNOT repent.

Baptizing babies is unbiblical? There are two examples of entire "households" being baptized when only the head of the household "exercised faith". Do you think the children under the age of reason within the household were excluded?

Yes, it is UNBIBLICAL. No babies were recorded as needing baptism in Scripture. In every instance of 'households' it is noted that everyone believed---something an infant CANNOT do.

Also, how is it that the members of their households were baptized, yet did not "exercise faith"? Huuuummmm....I guess baptism isn't for the "already saved" after all.

Baptism is for those who take the step of faith in Jesus Christ. It is a command they must obey personally---not have someone obey for you!!

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus says we receive eternal life by keeping the commandments. If I studied salvation like you, I would simply add an "alone" at the end, ignore or explain away all verses that seemingly contradict MY view, and bring up the "rich, young man" as the standard every time I broached the subject irrespective of situation.

I notice when you use the Thief as a universal example of salvation, you totally ignore his situation, but when I bring up the rich, young man, you take his situation into account so you can explain away our Lord's words.

This is quite illustrative of the "alone" crowd. You are bringing your preconceived doctrine into the text then twisting the text to suit it.

You misunderstand what Jesus was doing. His blood had not been spilled yet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to receive eternal life by righteous works! It is IMPOSSIBLE to obey the Commandments!!

Every one of us without Christ are GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL COMMANDMENTS!

James 2:10 NLT
For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.


You go against God and His plan by your contentions.

 

[francisdesales]

You misunderstand what Jesus was doing. His blood had not been spilled yet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to receive eternal life by righteous works! It is IMPOSSIBLE to obey the Commandments!!

The Bible is more nuanced on the subject than that simple comment.

Righteous works done in faith in God are indeed worthy of eternal life, according to Sacred Scriptures... (faith AND works bring us to eternal life)

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:5-7

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Gal 5:5-7

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:13


The last verse tells us Who is our guiding principle. The Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit of God, we cannot possibly obey the commandments. But in the Spirit, through His promptings, we CAN obey the commandments. We are expected to obey them - for if we don't, we CANNOT obtain eternal life.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

The Bible is more nuanced on the subject than that simple comment.

Righteous works done in faith in God are indeed worthy of eternal life, according to Sacred Scriptures... (faith AND works bring us to eternal life)

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:5-7

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Gal 5:5-7

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:13


The last verse tells us Who is our guiding principle. The Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit of God, we cannot possibly obey the commandments. But in the Spirit, through His promptings, we CAN obey the commandments. We are expected to obey them - for if we don't, we CANNOT obtain eternal life.

Regards

This is where your belief parts with Christianity, and becomes a blatantly obvious false gospel.

We receive eternal life by receiving the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, who took our punishment for our sin. We receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, who strengthens and empowers us, still cannot obey the Law, but we have God's forgiveness. We have His promise of eternal life because of His Son, and not for anything we can do---or fail to do!

 

[childeye]

[/B]

The Bible is more nuanced on the subject than that simple comment.

Righteous works done in faith in God are indeed worthy of eternal life, according to Sacred Scriptures... (faith AND works bring us to eternal life)

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:5-7

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Gal 5:5-7

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:13


The last verse tells us Who is our guiding principle. The Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit of God, we cannot possibly obey the commandments. But in the Spirit, through His promptings, we CAN obey the commandments. We are expected to obey them - for if we don't, we CANNOT obtain eternal life.

Regards

Dear Joe, I see a problem in my reasoning that is hard to reconcile regarding this issue. We must follow the Spirit and fulfill the righteous requirement according to the approval of God, not that I claim I do, but I sincerely desire to. Therefore I find it easy to forgive those who do anything against me, seeing it as compensating through mercy, what I could not attain because of weakness in times of yielding to my own flesh.

So here is the dilemna. Have I erred in allowing the flesh to dominate me in any degree, or is it self-righteous pride that I would beat myself up for thinking I could not have sinned. After all, who is right before God? The one who says have mercy on me a sinner, or the one who thinks he is not a sinner? Moreover, how is it then that those forgiven much love much? Not that I don't understand it, but I think Jesus is making an extremely important point regarding sinners, that is contrary to one's standard view of righteousness by works. Can men succeed in keeping the law or is it futile to try? If God says we are all concluded as sinners, isn't thinking we can accomplish the law through works calling Him a liar?

Furthermore, what are these works? For perhaps works of repentance, works of mercy, surpass the works of the law. My point is, I do not think in heaven anyone has to prove the content of their character over and over forever and ever. Can there be no rest from this accusation of whether we are good enough to gain heaven? Perhaps if we're good enough to give it a rest with one another, we are indeed good enough for God. After all the accuser was tossed out of heaven.

 

[francisdesales]

This is where your belief parts with Christianity, and become a blatantly obvious false gospel.

Did I or did I not cite the Scriptures clearly enough for you to figure out that your simple "theology" insufficiently takes into account the totality of the Scriptures?

I realize that 'faith alone' makes for good bumper stickers and coffee mug coasters, but frankly, it is ANTI-biblical. AGAINST the tenants of the Bible. Read James 2 lately? Note, Scriptures clearly tell us that our deeds IN CHRIST are part of gaining eternal life. For example, eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. HOWEVER you personally define that, this act suggests something YOU DO! And without DOING it, you shall not have life within you.

Let me make this perfectly clear, these are not my own personal deeds without God that would obligate God to pay me wages called eternal salvation - but God does expect, no, commands a loving response to His grace before one attains to eternal life. "Cheap grace" is not the Gospel message of the Gospels, friend... It is a matter of dying to self. There is no such sacrifice when one places ALL of the impetus for eternal life upon God.

It's the narrow path, not the wide path of 'faith alone'. YOU must die to self. Not God. Failure to do so is not God's fault.

We receive eternal life by receiving the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, who took our punishment for our sin. We receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, who strengthens and empowers us, still cannot obey the Law, but we have God's forgiveness. We have His promise of eternal life because of His Son, and not for anything we can do---or fail to do!

Oh, that is not entirely correct. The promise is CONDITIONAL!!! "REPENT AND BELIEVE" is a conditional response demanded before eternal life is granted to anyone. And even that is not the end of the response God commands from us...

Additionally, in Christ, I can do anything, to INCLUDE obeying the commandments, to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect... Heck, IF I AM NOT, that is Scriptural evidence that the Spirit is NOT abiding within me. Obedience to the Commandments is indeed evidence of the Spirit's presence - and thus, I certainly CAN obey God's Commandments.

And if you think that salvation depends ONLY upon "the promise", then one can only imagine the sort of God that exists that condemns people to eternal damnation for NOTHING that they could avoid or choose to do differently, since Hell is indeed populated with those who fell short (not that God fell short!!!) Maybe you should re-read the parables of Matthew 25, or the parable of the sower. Do we see your paradigm there? No. Jesus HIMSELF clearly disagrees with you during the Sermon on the Mount:

That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

He then goes on for two more chapters to explain HOW we become righteous, through God's work within us.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Did I or did I not cite the Scriptures clearly enough for you to figure out that your simple "theology" insufficiently takes into account the totality of the Scriptures?

I realize that 'faith alone' makes for good bumper stickers and coffee mug coasters, but frankly, it is ANTI-biblical. AGAINST the tenants of the Bible. Read James 2 lately? Note, Scriptures clearly tell us that our deeds IN CHRIST are part of gaining eternal life. For example, eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus. HOWEVER you personally define that, this act suggests something YOU DO! And without DOING it, you shall not have life within you.

Let me make this perfectly clear, these are not my own personal deeds without God that would obligate God to pay me wages called eternal salvation - but God does expect, no, commands a loving response to His grace before one attains to eternal life. "Cheap grace" is not the Gospel message of the Gospels, friend... It is a matter of dying to self. There is no such sacrifice when one places ALL of the impetus for eternal life upon God.

It's the narrow path, not the wide path of 'faith alone'. YOU must die to self. Not God. Failure to do so is not God's fault.



Oh, that is not entirely correct. The promise is CONDITIONAL!!! "REPENT AND BELIEVE" is a conditional response demanded before eternal life is granted to anyone. And even that is not the end of the response God commands from us...

Additionally, in Christ, I can do anything, to INCLUDE obeying the commandments, to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect... Heck, IF I AM NOT, that is Scriptural evidence that the Spirit is NOT abiding within me. Obedience to the Commandments is indeed evidence of the Spirit's presence - and thus, I certainly CAN obey God's Commandments.

And if you think that salvation depends ONLY upon "the promise", then one can only imagine the sort of God that exists that condemns people to eternal damnation for NOTHING that they could avoid or choose to do differently, since Hell is indeed populated with those who fell short (not that God fell short!!!) Maybe you should re-read the parables of Matthew 25, or the parable of the sower. Do we see your paradigm there? No. Jesus HIMSELF clearly disagrees with you during the Sermon on the Mount:

That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

He then goes on for two more chapters to explain HOW we become righteous, through God's work within us.

Regards

You keep on striving.

I will continue to obey God in the power of the Holy Spirit, all the while continually training my mind to declare who I am in Christ, which naturally produces deeds of faith without striving. He already considers me righteous because of Jesus, no matter what I have done, do, or will do, because I have had His blood applied.

 

[francisdesales]

Dear Joe, I see a problem in my reasoning that is hard to reconcile regarding this issue. We must follow the Spirit and fulfill the righteous requirement according to the approval of God, not that I claim I do, but I sincerely desire to. Therefore I find it easy to forgive those who do anything against me, seeing it as compensating through mercy, what I could not attain because of weakness in times of yielding to my own flesh.

True, a sense of our own personal sin helps us to humbly accept other people and grant mercy to them.

So here is the dilemna. Have I erred in allowing the flesh to dominate me in any degree, or is it self-righteous pride that I would beat myself up for thinking I could not have sinned. After all, who is right before God? The one who says have mercy on me a sinner, or the one who thinks he is not a sinner?

Naturally, the later situation is the type of attitude Jesus teaches us to avoid. The self-righteous attitude. Back to one of our original conversations, one must balance two things: God's graciousness and man's free will response. It is this relationship of Love that God desires. In our state of existence without God, we cannot hope to provide any inkling of a response of love. But God desires for us to be saved, to be in a loving relationship - and thus provides the ability to make an imperfect (but acceptable) beginning to God's initiatives.

How nature and grace interact is a very deep subject that cannot be plumbed to its depths in internet conversations. There is a particular synergy that exists, where grace perfects (does NOT overwhelm) nature. And so, my signature line, again for your reading pleasure. God moves the will within us, and without which, we could never hope to do anything good. But it IS our "righteousness" that is being judged - our response to the gifts given to us - that determines the fruit of the seeds of the Word of God.

Moreover, how is it then that those forgiven much love much? Not that I don't understand it, but I think Jesus is making an extremely important point regarding sinners, that is contrary to one's standard view of righteousness by works. Can men succeed in keeping the law or is it futile to try?

Good point - and I think that God does not command us to futility (despite some Calvinist presumptions...)

What I have learned, read, and heard from God is that the Scriptures on this subject are concerned with obligating a wage from God. That is the attitude of the self-righteous who rely on their work to earn a payment. They fail to see Love. Thus, "If I do 'x', 'y' and 'z' with zeal, God must grant me rewards" is bound to fail. "Righteousness by works", then, must be further conditioned - WHO is the driving principle behind those 'works'? Is it God's Spirit, for which we must give credit, or is it our own spirit, for which we credit ourselves? I think Christianity, for 2000 years, has accepted that the Spirit moves our transformed will to do good deeds, so we hardly could brag about our own abilities, only in Christ can we brag.

If God says we are all concluded as sinners, isn't thinking we can accomplish the law through works calling Him a liar?

First, there must be a transformation, a regeneration, before we are able to do any "good works" as God intends (Eph 2:10). "Works of the Law", again, means that we are attempting to obligate God for a payment. See Rom 4:4, a key verse for understanding Paul's letter and understanding of this concept. It is not the obedience of the Law that is an issue with Paul, but the attitude on WHY one obeys it. Jesus mimics this in His own teachings on the Sermon on the Mount and Mat 5:20 cited above. He is not saying one must conduct themselves with even MORE handwashings or more rigourous fastings to be more righteous, but that the Pharisaical attitude MUST GO!

God desires mercy, not more sacrifices...

Furthermore, what are these works? For perhaps works of repentance, works of mercy, surpass the works of the law. My point is, I do not think in heaven anyone has to prove the content of their character over and over forever and ever.

Agreed.

Can there be no rest from this accusation of whether we are good enough to gain heaven? Perhaps if we're good enough to give it a rest with one another, we are indeed good enough for God. After all the accuser was tossed out of heaven.

LOL!!! Having confidence in the Spirit of God and His work within us helps to rid ourselves of the very real possibility of religious self-righteousness (and one can have this even with a faith-alone mindset). By reminding ourselves of the free "seed", by allowing God to water us with that Living Wellspring within us, by allowing God's Light to shine upon us, the Light of the World, yes, we can provide the fruit that God desires to bring forth from His field within the Kingdom... I am sure you are aware of the alternatives to good fruit that are NOT the fault of the Most Holy "Gardener"...

This discussion will always require a careful balance, for either extreme leads us from the Gospel.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You keep on striving.

I will continue to run the race, just as Paul did, for I still can be disqualified, as can you...

By remaining in Christ, that is our only chance for finishing.

Have you read my signature line? Why do you keep falsely accusing me of something I don't believe and have gone to great lengths to prove?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Baptism is for those who take the step of faith in Jesus Christ. It is a command they must obey personally---not have someone obey for you!!

Do you disagree that people can act in proxy for others? It seems that the Gospels have several accounts of people being healed by God THROUGH the prayers and actions of others.

I'm relatively certain that Lazarus did not ask to be healed.
That the dead girl did not ask to be raised up.
That the lunatic boy did not ask to be healed.
That the centurion's servant did not ask to be healed.
Jesus does not mention the faith of the paralytic in Mark 2, but the faith of those who bring the man to Jesus.

I would suggest that such verses are instructive to how the Power of God reaches beyond even your viewpoint. It is amazing to me that people restrict God's Power when Scriptures give us a number of examples on God's gracious mercy.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Do you disagree that people can act in proxy for others? It seems that the Gospels have several accounts of people being healed by God THROUGH the prayers and actions of others.

I'm relatively certain that Lazarus did not ask to be healed.
That the dead girl did not ask to be raised up.
That the lunatic boy did not ask to be healed.
That the centurion's servant did not ask to be healed.
Jesus does not mention the faith of the paralytic in Mark 2, but the faith of those who bring the man to Jesus.

I would suggest that such verses are instructive to how the Power of God reaches beyond even your viewpoint. It is amazing to me that people restrict God's Power when Scriptures give us a number of examples on God's gracious mercy.

Regards

Excuses, excuses. We are commanded to be baptized after repentance. Short circuiting a poor child's ability to realize that he is a sinner in need of salvation, and a Saviour by baptizing him as an unknowing infant is a sin perpetrated on him. Declaring someone a Christian who has never entered a relationship with Jesus Christ is a presumptuous sin, to say the least.

 

[childeye]

True, a sense of our own personal sin helps us to humbly accept other people and grant mercy to them.



Back to one of our original conversations, one must balance two things: God's graciousness and man's free will response. It is this relationship of Love that God desires. In our state of existence without God, we cannot hope to provide any inkling of a response of love. But God desires for us to be saved, to be in a loving relationship - and thus provides the ability to make an imperfect (but acceptable) beginning to God's initiatives.


But it IS our "righteousness" that is being judged - our response to the gifts given to us - that determines the fruit of the seeds of the Word of God.



This discussion will always require a careful balance, for either extreme leads us from the Gospel.

I'm sorry if I appear to keep pushing this issue. You've certainly explained well enough your view, however it may be, that I am not ever satisfied. Words like righteousness, grace, freewill, works, faith, all take on different definitions. For my judgment on matters of theology are a dividing of where I end and God begins or Visa versa. Then again perhaps they are inseperable. I would rest, trusting that God has foreordained every citizen of the Kingdom of God and their order and station, and accept my place in faithful obedience. It would not be inconceivable that He could do such a thing, seeing that He declares the end from the beginning. But that darned freewill argument, like a carrot on a stick is an impediment to my rest or my works, the semantics alone are so exhausting I don't even care if someone understands me anymore, so I say both.

I see Cain, whose offering was more for himself rather than for God. This no doubt is a works not accepted. If I do acceptable works for God's sake, I take that to mean for Love's sake. If I feel empathy, is it not my own suffering I seek to end in helping others? To be true there is a selfishness that is Godly, and so I do it for myself. But in the end it had to be God that brings it all to come to pass. Hence I see two definitions of Godliness. One where a man believes in His existence and seeks to obey His commandments, and one where His attributes exist in a man's soul by virtue of His grace. The latter definition, doesn't recognize the first as even believing in God as Spirit. So does God give me what is necessary to overcome my flesh or just enough to make me try? I'm tired of reaching for a carrot I will never obtain. I'll pull the cart simply because there is nothing better to do. Oh how is it that I glory in my ignorance? But somehow I do.

 

[Sam21]

All christians should be water baptized,after having said that I do believe that there is a false concept of water baptism that is dangerous and that is this, the bible NEVER teaches us to have faith in water baptism, we are to have faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice,if we practice faith in water baptism then that misdirected faith could actually keep us from having the kind of faith in Jesus Christ that saves.
Water baptism does not cause God to save us and give us the Holy Spirit, it is commitment to God and faith in Jesus Christ that God uses to save us and give us the Holy Spirit, water baptism is a symbol of conversion,nothing else.

 

[francisdesales]

Excuses, excuses. We are commanded to be baptized after repentance. Short circuiting a poor child's ability to realize that he is a sinner in need of salvation, and a Saviour by baptizing him as an unknowing infant is a sin perpetrated on him. Declaring someone a Christian who has never entered a relationship with Jesus Christ is a presumptuous sin, to say the least.

Excuses? I am pointing out Sacred Scriptures and the precedents for my point of view. Brushing them aside is not a response. It is, frankly, quite childish and speaks of your inability to respond intelligently.

While it is ordinary for adults to choose to respond to God's calling, it goes without saying that it is not done alone or in a vacuum. No one baptizes themselves. Nor does man decide without God's working within that man. Are you saying that God cannot work in an infant - when Christ clearly tells us "do not prevent them from coming to me", refering to children?

Because an infant is baptised does NOT mean he cannot later re-affirm or CONFIRM his parents' decision to bring that child into the community of believers. Who said anything about 'short-circuiting' anything? What prevents the child from later confirming the decision of the parents???

Don't we find the same idea in the Old Testament? How many infants of 8 days decide to get circumcised? And yet, that is the ancient practice dictated by God Himself, a sign of the Covenant and entrance into the community.

Perhaps your problem with infant baptism stems in your faulty understanding of salvation, equating it to gaining eternal life without the possibility of losing it. That is not what salvation means - it is the forgiveness of sins. It is a spiritual healing. And clearly, God does not need to await for someone to request such a healing, as I have already pointed out.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

All christians should be water baptized,after having said that I do believe that there is a false concept of water baptism that is dangerous and that is this, the bible NEVER teaches us to have faith in water baptism, we are to have faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice,if we practice faith in water baptism then that misdirected faith could actually keep us from having the kind of faith in Jesus Christ that saves.
Water baptism does not cause God to save us and give us the Holy Spirit, it is commitment to God and faith in Jesus Christ that God uses to save us and give us the Holy Spirit, water baptism is a symbol of conversion,nothing else.

I thought that John the Baptist said that the Baptism Christ would provide would be better and more powerful. Are you saying that Christian baptism is = to the Baptisms provided by John? Does this mean that the Scriptures are wrong - that Christ's baptisms are only 'as good as' John's???

Perhaps you could point out a verse from Scriptures that tell us that Baptism is "a symbol of conversion, nothing else"... What exactly is the necessity of this "symbol" if only one person is present, such as Philip and the Egyptian eunich? Why the need to pull over and immediately become baptised?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I'm sorry if I appear to keep pushing this issue. You've certainly explained well enough your view, however it may be, that I am not ever satisfied. Words like righteousness, grace, freewill, works, faith, all take on different definitions.

I'm afraid you are correct - and let's not forget "salvation", as I find that is a common reason for some to talk past each other...

For my judgment on matters of theology are a dividing of where I end and God begins or Visa versa. Then again perhaps they are inseperable. I would rest, trusting that God has foreordained every citizen of the Kingdom of God and their order and station, and accept my place in faithful obedience. It would not be inconceivable that He could do such a thing, seeing that He declares the end from the beginning. But that darned freewill argument, like a carrot on a stick is an impediment to my rest or my works, the semantics alone are so exhausting I don't even care if someone understands me anymore, so I say both.

Theologians have always had difficulty in considering the work of grace and nature in the man. Where does God's gift "end" and man's work begin? Who can know such things with certainty? All we DO know is that somehow, there is a synergy, a cooperation, at some level. We know we can reject Grace and we know that God commands us to obey and repent and believe - which implies the ability, at whatever level, to DO just that (or not). If man is completely passive, there is nothing worthwhile to save, quite frankly. Nor is there any particular reason for God to even HAVE a relationship with us...

I see Cain, whose offering was more for himself rather than for God.

Agreed. The first "work to obligate God"!

This no doubt is a works not accepted. If I do acceptable works for God's sake, I take that to mean for Love's sake. If I feel empathy, is it not my own suffering I seek to end in helping others? To be true there is a selfishness that is Godly, and so I do it for myself. But in the end it had to be God that brings it all to come to pass. Hence I see two definitions of Godliness. One where a man believes in His existence and seeks to obey His commandments, and one where His attributes exist in a man's soul by virtue of His grace. The latter definition, doesn't recognize the first as even believing in God as Spirit. So does God give me what is necessary to overcome my flesh or just enough to make me try? I'm tired of reaching for a carrot I will never obtain. I'll pull the cart simply because there is nothing better to do. Oh how is it that I glory in my ignorance? But somehow I do.

I think the very fact that men CAN and DO reject God, even AFTER receiving the gift of faith, should answer your question. At some level, God allows man to choose (knowing full well what that choice already is, and in some way, even influencing it). We do know that alone, we cannot do anything worthy of salvation. We also know that God judges us on what "we" do - but how much of "our" work is God's and how much is our "contribution", we cannot say. Rather than say "10000000000000 + 1", I would say "100000000000 X 1", to put it mathematically. Or, "10000000000 X 0" for the man who rejects God....

Regards

 

[taromina2003]

This is where your belief parts with Christianity, and becomes a blatantly obvious false gospel.

We receive eternal life by receiving the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, who took our punishment for our sin. We receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, who strengthens and empowers us, still cannot obey the Law, but we have God's forgiveness. We have His promise of eternal life because of His Son, and not for anything we can do---or fail to do!

I totally agree.