Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

"That we may know"....the blessed assurance that believers have.

Hope someone actually reads that, brother.

They will!!!

 

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran---Here's a verse for you, 1 John 5:13---"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; (that ye may know that ye have eternal life,) and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Know there's a promise!!!

i know that but again that is and must be in compliance with what pauls warns of not ignoring the work of the cross in hebrews,

ok to the uniformed of my testimomy. i wasnt raised in the chruch i was raised a jw , and i also was bi male. i had some influences with the occult and also was stealing when i repented. i prayed to god to save me and then only once did i act on my male lusts and in doing so i heard god tell me hey thats wrong but i denied that and went on sinning till one day a prophet told me i was wrong. she heard from her son who is a muslim.

now then i did repent,before that first prayer i had lust but never got that from god as i never heard or knew his voice. so how is it that possible then if was saved and to do that type of sin and knowing that i was wrong? did i not repent. and no pastor or man or women in the church knew i was a bi male. it wasnt even preached upon. the hs was so strong there in that church that when ever i went to listen and read that sin would come up.

so therefore its possible to walk away from god. i was doing just that. but he showed me mercy. so god would have if i continued in that sin ingnored that? i dont think so. and also when i repented of that sin. he took the very desire to sin and want man from me. sure satan tries me. but i dont have to listen to him.

 

[jasoncran]

I think I am expressing something totally beyond comprehension for some people here, so they are ignoring it, feeling safer in what they have been taught, even if there is NO Scriptural backing for it...

As to your question, no one "gets the payment", Larry.

As I said before to Glorydaz, when Paul speaks of being "bought at a price", it means that Love is costly. It is expensive. There is a "price" to pay. But it is not something we "pay" to another. It is the cost of dying to self...

The cost of expressing our love for another is expensive, we know this in our own relationships with other people. But we are not "paying" anyone", per sec.

In the case of blood, it represents the most extreme case of expressing one's love, for there is no greater love than to die for one's friend (as Jesus stated).

Regards

the blood was the cost for god to pay for us so that we wouldnt die in sin. in his love for man he sacrificed himself for us.

in another words man when he was a sinning and didnt know him he died for us.

Romans 5


1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

this means that when we sinned and those that sinned never hearing of god are his enemies and christ died for them.god planned this and used the law to point to that fact. this is where we differ.man choose to sin and become so wicked as in the case with noah's day and also heres the support for such things.

Ezekiel 22


1Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt shew her all her abominations.
3Then say thou, Thus saith the Lord GOD, The city sheddeth blood in the midst of it, that her time may come, and maketh idols against herself to defile herself.
4Thou art become guilty in thy blood that thou hast shed; and hast defiled thyself in thine idols which thou hast made; and thou hast caused thy days to draw near, and art come even unto thy years: therefore have I made thee a reproach unto the heathen, and a mocking to all countries.
5Those that be near, and those that be far from thee, shall mock thee, which art infamous and much vexed.
6Behold, the princes of Israel, every one were in thee to their power to shed blood.
7In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.
8Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.
9In thee are men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they eat upon the mountains: in the midst of thee they commit lewdness.
10In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.
11And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.
12In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD.
13Behold, therefore I have smitten mine hand at thy dishonest gain which thou hast made, and at thy blood which hath been in the midst of thee.
14Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the LORD have spoken it, and will do it.
15And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.
16And thou shalt take thine inheritance in thyself in the sight of the heathen, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.
17And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
18Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
19Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.
21Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof.
22As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
23And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
24Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.
25There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
26Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
27Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
28And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
29The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.
30And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. 31Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

and malach 4

1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse

and most chruches and the gospel say that the elijah spoken off her is none other the john the baptist. he preached that.

now again the problem here really is the misscommunation thing and that also christ and god wanted a perfect sacrifice to intercede for man. you do teach the intercession work of christ in the rcc? i know they do. man had reached a point of god was going to destroy man once again. he made only promise to noah that he would judge man by water not that he wouldnt destroy man.

that is why christ came to become the intercession for those that would come to the lord and also to make an escape for the lost during the day of the lord.

that cost god and that is when they mean by purchased by the lord. we are not our own. do you understand the idea of the near kinsman redeemer? the kinsman would purchase the land so that the land wouldnt go away from the family. that is what also paul mean man was sold into slavery to sin and christ had to pay the price of redemption

 

[jasoncran]

Just what do you mean by, "you and those like you?"

Aren't you supposed to be a moderator or something?
You certainly seem to be a good finger-pointer without anything to back it up.
Either make yourself clear or simply refrain from commenting on what you "think" I believe.

No, I don't have to do any kind of gymnastics on any verses, for they are quite clear...and supported by the whole Word of God. I just don't believe in picking out one verse from here and there and claiming it's proof that man can lose his salvation.

you espouse eternal security correct? i recall our conservations when you were here before. and with the battles of calvinism with sbg57 and you assuming that i was into works based salvation because i didnt believe in osas.

adrain rogers and most pushers of osas do that. they preach and teach that one can be saved and not be faithful at some time(without endorsing it) and somehow make it to heaven and yet not be rewarded at the bema seat.

i know i have friends that have told me that and they aint calvinists.please correct me then if you dont espouse osas and i will then no longer bring that point up. joe isnt and doesnt and wont espouse that. eventide does, grubal i dont know, childeye does and danus does(both lean to calvin) and i dont.

 

[francisdesales]

Bought with a price means Jesus laid down His life for us....redeemed by his blood.

Redeemed means bought back. We're redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Purchased.

It is very simple, already very clearly explained.

Love costs. But it is not paid to someone!!! Those who love know this. Love costs something of oneself.

Or are you suggesting that God owed the devil something???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Fran----I think I am expressing something totally beyond comprehension for some people here, so they are ignoring it, feeling safer in what they have been taught, even if there is NO Scriptural backing for it...

You never cease to amaze, you think that anything you express is, beyond the mental capability's of some...Are you not, "thinking of yourself more highly than you ought??"

Read what you cited of mine more closely.

I said SOME people cannot comprehend, not everyone. And the reason, I have stated. it is not because I am brilliant, but that some people prefer traditions of men...

Regards

 

[Sinthesis]

Read what you cited of mine more closely.

I said SOME people cannot comprehend, not everyone. And the reason, I have stated. it is not because I am brilliant, but that some people prefer traditions of men...

Regards

Post #666?:o

 

[jasoncran]

It is very simple, already very clearly explained.

Love costs. But it is not paid to someone!!! Those who love know this. Love costs something of oneself.

Or are you suggesting that God owed the devil something???

Regards

i agree and the cost was paid for us by god. he didnt owe us but he went ahead and paid the price and purchased us. it was done in love. love does cost.

 

[glorydaz]

i know that but again that is and must be in compliance with what pauls warns of not ignoring the work of the cross in hebrews,

ok to the uniformed of my testimomy. i wasnt raised in the chruch i was raised a jw , and i also was bi male. i had some influences with the occult and also was stealing when i repented. i prayed to god to save me and then only once did i act on my male lusts and in doing so i heard god tell me hey thats wrong but i denied that and went on sinning till one day a prophet told me i was wrong. she heard from her son who is a muslim.

now then i did repent,before that first prayer i had lust but never got that from god as i never heard or knew his voice. so how is it that possible then if was saved and to do that type of sin and knowing that i was wrong? did i not repent. and no pastor or man or women in the church knew i was a bi male. it wasnt even preached upon. the hs was so strong there in that church that when ever i went to listen and read that sin would come up.

so therefore its possible to walk away from god. i was doing just that. but he showed me mercy. so god would have if i continued in that sin ingnored that? i dont think so. and also when i repented of that sin. he took the very desire to sin and want man from me. sure satan tries me. but i dont have to listen to him.

The assurance we have when we've been born again is not that we won't ever be out of fellowship for a season, but that He will never forsake us, for we are his children. Some believers walk in disobedience for longer than that, but the Lord hasn't left them. We're chastened until we return. A person isn't saved then unsaved then saved and unsaved.......If we are truly born again, we may grieve the Holy Spirit but we are still sealed. All sin and any sin will grieve the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we are all guilty of that.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

 

[jasoncran]

The assurance we have when we've been born again is not that we won't ever be out of fellowship for a season, but that He will never forsake us, for we are his children. Some believers walk in disobedience for longer than that, but the Lord hasn't left them. We're chastened until we return. A person isn't saved then unsaved then saved and unsaved.......If we are truly born again, we may grieve the Holy Spirit but we are still sealed. All sin and any sin will grieve the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we are all guilty of that.

sigh, care to tell that to me again as i just told you what being gay was doing and i was going to the go the way of an ardent athiest if i let that be as i began to hate fod in my heart of hearts. so god would just let that slide? given what he says about that sin, no man that does that sin and other shall inherent eternal life.

its one thing to say that if one struggles but it wanted to do it and be ok with christ. i was decieving my self and going the way of a reprobate quick. does a child of god remain that way?

 

[glorydaz]

you espouse eternal security correct? i recall our conservations when you were here before. and with the battles of calvinism with sbg57 and you assuming that i was into works based salvation because i didnt believe in osas.

adrain rogers and most pushers of osas do that. they preach and teach that one can be saved and not be faithful at some time(without endorsing it) and somehow make it to heaven and yet not be rewarded at the bema seat.

i know i have friends that have told me that and they aint calvinists.please correct me then if you dont espouse osas and i will then no longer bring that point up. joe isnt and doesnt and wont espouse that. eventide does, grubal i dont know, childeye does and danus does(both lean to calvin) and i dont.

It would depend on what you mean. If you mean OSAS in the way many people do...that no matter what a person does they are still saved, I would say "no", or the person was never saved to begin with. A profession of faith is not enough. We must be born again a new creature. If you mean, as most do, that when a person is born again they will never be unborn...when they are sealed, they can never be unsealed, then I would say, "yes". I was once told that my beliefs are more in line with the Perseverance of the Saints. I so dislike labels. I just know what the Word tells me quite clearly and that texts such as Heb. 6 are simply incorrectly interpreted. The problem comes from taking one portion of scripture and building a doctrine on it. The few that might seem to disagree can be rectified by careful consideration of the Word.

 

[jasoncran]

It would depend on what you mean. If you mean OSAS in the way many people do...that no matter what a person does they are still saved, I would say "no", or the person was never saved to begin with. A profession of faith is not enough. We must be born again a new creature. If you mean, as most do, that when a person is born again they will never be unborn...when they are sealed, they can never be unsealed, then I would say, "yes". I was once told that my beliefs are more in line with the Perseverance of the Saints. I so dislike labels. I just know what the Word tells me quite clearly and that texts such as Heb. 6 are simply incorrectly interpreted. The problem comes from taking one portion of scripture and building a doctrine on it. The few that might seem to disagree can be rectified by careful consideration of the Word.

well what is taught by most biblical claimers as your self is called persaverance of the saints. i dont buy that as a man can serve god and fall from grace.

peter mentions that in his statement of the arise of false prophets. these know god and he states it would have been better if they never knew god.

besides one isnt just one day say hey im gay. that lust slowing works on you it was always there and i had the choice not to listen to it but i was rather prone to it since age 10. with others who fell into that they most likely struggled with that and didnt come forward to repent and or had that dispostion and feed it.

either way its possible to feed that and deny god.

 

[glorydaz]

sigh, care to tell that to me again as i just told you what being gay was doing and i was going to the go the way of an ardent athiest if i let that be as i began to hate fod in my heart of hearts. so god would just let that slide? given what he says about that sin, no man that does that sin and other shall inherent eternal life.

its one thing to say that if one struggles but it wanted to do it and be ok with christ. i was decieving my self and going the way of a reprobate quick. does a child of god remain that way?

Of course God wouldn't let that slide...and he didn't. He drew you back into obedience and you were miserable while you were away. That's one of the best signs there is that someone is really saved....they don't remain in sin. Lots of people stay there and are powerless to escape because they love their sin more than they fear the judgment of God or more than they love the Lord. I'm not ignorant about the gay lifestyle, Jason. I had a friend for years that was gay. I saw what he went through. The prodigal son slept and ate with pigs before he returned....just saying. Do you trust the Lord to pull you out of a hole, or not?

 

[glorydaz]

It is very simple, already very clearly explained.

Love costs. But it is not paid to someone!!! Those who love know this. Love costs something of oneself.

Or are you suggesting that God owed the devil something???

Regards

This has nothing to do with the devil. It has everything to do with the Righteousness of God and the Justice of God.

 

[francisdesales]

This has nothing to do with the devil. It has everything to do with the Righteousness of God and the Justice of God.

And who is being paid, according to you?

YOU brought it up!

 

[francisdesales]

Post #666?:o

LOL! Getting ready for Halloween...;)

 

[francisdesales]

now again the problem here really is the misscommunation thing and that also christ and god wanted a perfect sacrifice to intercede for man.

Christ's sacrifice is about intercession to the Father. Knowing that the Father is merciful (as the OT points out, despite other's ignoring that...) and loves the Son, the depths of the Son's sacrifice would SURELY bring forth the GIFT of salvation to mankind! A perfect sacrifice was given out of love to the Father, not out of requirement that was demanded. We just don't see a REQUIREMENT from God for any such thing.

For those who think otherwise, provide the Scriptures...

you do teach the intercession work of christ in the rcc? i know they do.

of course. That was the primary point of Christ's death. To intercede for the sake of mankind, Whom He was/is one of after the Incarnation. He is our MEDIATOR, not the One Who DEMANDS from the Father His wages/payment...

that cost god and that is when they mean by purchased by the lord. we are not our own. do you understand the idea of the near kinsman redeemer? the kinsman would purchase the land so that the land wouldnt go away from the family. that is what also paul mean man was sold into slavery to sin and christ had to pay the price of redemption

It is an analogy, but it has limits, because in the case of human redemption, no one is "paid". The price is paid, but it is not given TO someone.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

And who is being paid, according to you?

YOU brought it up!

We were redeemed from the Wrath of God....therefore it would be God.
I realize liberals have a hard time with this, but it's God's design, not mine.

While God is Love, He is also Wrath. The Righteous requirements of the Law had to be met.

God's wrath is against all ungodliness and unrighteousnes of men.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

We are saved from God's wrath...only by the BLOOD.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Lest you claim this is only the law of Moses, you might want to reconsider it before you speak.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 

[glorydaz]

And who is being paid, according to you?

YOU brought it up!

Actually, Paul brought it up, and you challenged me when I quoted Paul. Just so we keep the record straight. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

It is an analogy, but it has limits, because in the case of human redemption, no one is "paid". The price is paid, but it is not given TO someone.

Regards

The blood sprinkled on the door posts at the passover was not given to anyone, either, but it kept the death angel at bay. The blood sprinkling on the Ark and the Mercy Seat and even the people are but types of Christ's work on the cross.


If you don't actually read these verses, let me know and I'll stop posting them.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The sprinkling of blood was a symbol for several things...preservation on leaving Egypt, the Covenant, Atonement, etc. Here we see the New Covenant.

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,[u/] and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.