Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Mitspa]

Jethro if this is all you were to say about justification unto salvation I could agree with you whole heartedly because I agree with what I hear you saying in this post!

Thats the trick and the deception. To admit enough of the gospel to mix in this bondage to the law.
This is always the deception and none of them have enough honesty just to say they are trying to be justified by law keeping.
They are always found to be "false witnesses"

 

[Mitspa]

I only read the first page of this thread as I don't have the time to read the other 68 pages. Surely John or someone else has brought this up before. I only need one verse to establish my thinking on OSAS and it is...

Revelation 3:1-3 (NIV2011)
1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
5 The one who is victorious will, like them, (the unsoiled of Sardis) be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

The Church was not practicing the teachings that they were given; and their deeds were unfinished. So if they did not start doing so He (Jesus) was going to BLOT their names out of the book of life. how much more plainly can this be stated?

Well one cannot just lift the book of Revelation outside of the rest of the New Testament and think they understand this book! The only sin that causes a believer to fall from grace or to be cutoff from Christ, is to turn from grace into legalism.
The law is not of faith, and those who are under the law are cutoff from Christ, they have fallen from grace.

So the most harsh warnings of scripture is there to warn against legalism and those who go about to establish their own righteousness, thus rejecting Christ.

 

[John Zain]

Jethro, your just wrong, and you should stop trying to teach and be humble enough
to allow yourself to learn from those God has called to teach.

Personally, I have peace over most of what Jethro is teaching.

Mitspa, have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of tongues)?

If not, you have NOT been called by the Lord into the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11),
but you may have been called by man to be a teacher.
Huge difference between the two!

P.S. None of the 5-fold ministries, nor any of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12)
are available to anyone who does not have this baptism,
which has absolutely nothing to do with being born-again.

 

[francisdesales]

I do believe Christ died for ALL men. So He paid the price for ALL sin. But in order for His sacrifice to have any effect in one's life or towards their ultimate salvation and eternal life, they must be born again (spiritual rebirth) not head knowledge, heart knowledge that can only be given by the Holy Spirit to that person.

I agree.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Well one cannot just lift the book of Revelation outside of the rest of the New Testament and think they understand this book! The only sin that causes a believer to fall from grace or to be cutoff from Christ, is to turn from grace into legalism.
The law is not of faith, and those who are under the law are cutoff from Christ, they have fallen from grace.

So the most harsh warnings of scripture is there to warn against legalism and those who go about to establish their own righteousness, thus rejecting Christ.

Actually, there are a number of sins that can consider one cut off from Christ. You are way too focused on Judaizers. That is not the summation of the NT opposition to the ways of Christ.

Begin with 1 Cor 6:9-10. If you are not allowed into the Kingdom, you have falled from Grace. Thus, disobedience to God is a rejection of Wisdom Itself, Who we call Jesus Christ.

In addition, Peter and Paul refers to apostasy, while John refers to Docetism as further problems that were considered as a separation from the community, the Body of Christ.

Also, the guy who just mentioned Revelation - well, you could cull Jesus' discussion to the seven churches and find more particulars that can separate one from Christ (unless you consider being "spit out" as a union with God that remains???)

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

Personally, I have peace over most of what Jethro is teaching.

Mitspa, have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of tongues)?

If not, you have NOT been called by the Lord into the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11),
but you may have been called by man to be a teacher.
Huge difference between the two!

P.S. None of the 5-fold ministries, nor any of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12)
are available to anyone who does not have this baptism,
which has absolutely nothing to do with being born-again.

Well I have the Holy Spirit in full measure and have the gifts that the scriptures clearly describe. So that proves nothing, for many of those who turned back into law, as in the book of Gal. had received this as well, but where cutoff and had falling from grace because they turned from grace back to the law.

So just because one can speak in tongues means little to me, for there are many false charismatic movements and they all have false gifts of the Spirit.

So I would suggest that you are not the teacher. For I have judged your doctrines and your ability to present the scriptures in an honest way. I have found you to lack even basic biblical understanding and seem to have little ability to be honest about the intention of the scriptures you quote.

I urge you to warn yourself, and teach yourself before you go about to teach and warn others.

 

[Mitspa]

Actually, there are a number of sins that can consider one cut off from Christ. You are way too focused on Judaizers. That is not the summation of the NT opposition to the ways of Christ.

Begin with 1 Cor 6:9-10. If you are not allowed into the Kingdom, you have falled from Grace. Thus, disobedience to God is a rejection of Wisdom Itself, Who we call Jesus Christ.

In addition, Peter and Paul refers to apostasy, while John refers to Docetism as further problems that were considered as a separation from the community, the Body of Christ.

Also, the guy who just mentioned Revelation - well, you could cull Jesus' discussion to the seven churches and find more particulars that can separate one from Christ (unless you consider being "spit out" as a union with God that remains???)

Regards

So then have you read Gal 5:19-21 ? These are things such as contention, jealousies, selfish ambition, envy, strife, outburst of wrath etc...
Paul is describing that actions of the flesh, the workings and desires of the flesh in contrast to the FRUIT of the Spirit.
This is a common and basic biblical understanding that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. THOSE WHO WORSHIP GOD MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT.

So Pauls point is that as long as a believer walks in the flesh they cannot receive the promises of God, which belong to those who walk in the spirit.

To make these scriptures mean that one is not saved is just foolish and shows the lack of even basic biblical understanding of the gospel.
To say that these scriptures unsave a believer is to unsave every christain in the world at one time or another.

This is just legalism masked in new testament scripture.
The amazing thing is that so few christains understand the issue of flesh and spirit that this nonsense is taught and accepted in many churches.

 

[Mitspa]

This is what many fail to understand about "walking in the Spirit" you cannot earn your way into the Spirit nor can you earn your right to abide in the Spirit. Paul says as you have received Christ Jesus, so walk ye in Him? Well you receive Him by grace through faith. One walks in the spirit by faith in His grace. The scripture declare to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. It does not say, stop doing these things and you will be in the Spirit. In the gospel all glory for all obedience is to Gods grace. Man gets no credit for what God does through His Spirit. There is no room for boasting in the gospel.
I do not think that some really believe that Gods grace can give them power over sin, thats why they look to the law and there own effort. No its not by power nor by might, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.

Now this takes REAL FAITH, the law is not of faith. So to be under the law and expect Gods grace to work is just foolish.

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace. The strength of sin is the law.

So again I make the warning to those who are teaching others to sin, by teaching the law. Repent of your evil and turn from your wicked ways.

 

[gr8grace]

Hey Mitspa,

I wanted to touch base with you on something. I am with you on trying to reach people to live and walk in the Spirit and how religion try's to use the law to put us in bondage again.(yuck)

But I am a staunch supporter of OSAS. And I don't think a believer that is saved that goes back into legalism is fallen OUT of Grace,Just fallen FROM grace. I believe we will still see them in heaven.

Even legalism does not have the power to unsave us.

 

[Mitspa]

Hey Mitspa,

I wanted to touch base with you on something. I am with you on trying to reach people to live and walk in the Spirit and how religion try's to use the law to put us in bondage again.(yuck)

But I am a staunch supporter of OSAS. And I don't think a believer that is saved that goes back into legalism is fallen OUT of Grace,Just fallen FROM grace. I believe we will still see them in heaven.

Even legalism does not have the power to unsave us.

Well I will say this? God does not want people who think they are earning salvation to have confidence in His salvation.
Does that make sense to you? I will never assure a self-righteous person of salvation. I will assure all those who trust in Gods abundant grace and free gift of righteousness, that nothing can overcome Gods Grace.
So it would be wrong for me to encourage any of these people who are rejecting Gods goodness and righteousness and going about to establish their own. So I do have some understanding of Gods mercy for those who have been brought up under law, and have had these false doctrines taught to them for so many years. Yes God will judge them according to the knowledge they had and He will show mercy upon many. But those who teach are under a greater judgment as the scriptures declare. Those who allow mercy for themselves and show no mercy for others, will be judged by the judgement they have mete to others.
Even in all this God desires mercy. It is not our place to save or unsave but those who stand in grace are upon the Rock. Those who are under law are upon the sand.

 

[gr8grace]

Well I will say this? God does not want people who think they are earning salvation to have confidence in His salvation.
Does that make sense to you? I will never assure a self-righteous person of salvation. I will assure all those who trust in Gods abundant grace and free gift of righteousness, that nothing can overcome Gods Grace.
So it would be wrong for me to encourage any of these people who are rejecting Gods goodness and righteousness and going about to establish their own. So I do have some understanding of Gods mercy for those who have been brought up under law, and have had these false doctrines taught to them for so many years. Yes God will judge them according to the knowledge they had and He will show mercy upon many. But those who teach are under a greater judgment as the scriptures declare. Those who allow mercy for themselves and show no mercy for others, will be judged by the judgement they have mete to others.
Even in all this God desires mercy. It is not our place to save or unsave but those who stand in grace are upon the Rock. Those who are under law are upon the sand.

Thank you very much Sir. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from. God Bless.

 

[francisdesales]

So then have you read Gal 5:19-21 ? These are things such as contention, jealousies, selfish ambition, envy, strife, outburst of wrath etc...
Paul is describing that actions of the flesh, the workings and desires of the flesh in contrast to the FRUIT of the Spirit.

Yes, works of the flesh are opposed to works of the spirit. Legalism is only one of many different "works of the flesh". None of these you mention are legalism, slavish obedience to the code without inner trust and love of God... Hypocrisy. Note that such people won't inherit the kingdom.

This is a common and basic biblical understanding that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. THOSE WHO WORSHIP GOD MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT.

So Pauls point is that as long as a believer walks in the flesh they cannot receive the promises of God, which belong to those who walk in the spirit.

I agree with that.

To make these scriptures mean that one is not saved is just foolish and shows the lack of even basic biblical understanding of the gospel.

Foolish? Cool your jets. You think you are saved if you are locked out of the Kingdom, "gnashing your teeth in the night"???

It appears that you think one can live by the flesh AND claim to be "healed, made whole", which is the definition of "being saved". Maybe this is why you refused to anwer my question about whether one could murder and still be "saved" ...

Salvation is not a passport to heaven that you get when you make your proclamation of faith. Salvation points to your new life. Faith working through love. Of course, if you aren't living that new life, how can you say "I am saved" - meaning "I am made whole, I am healed from sin"??? :gah

To say that these scriptures unsave a believer is to unsave every christain in the world at one time or another.

By Paul's definition, one cannot live in sin and in Christ simultaneously. So I guess "these people", me included, better repent and ask for forgiveness when we do such things, right??? For we have one who continues to intercede for us. He does this because we continue to need His aid. If you claim you don't sin, you are a liar - says St. John. If you sin, you are still in darkness.

That is not being saved, Mitspa...

While nothing can take away that moment when you first were saved, it doesn't follow that you still maintain that relationship throughout your life.

This is just legalism masked in new testament scripture.

Maybe you should define legalism to make sure we are on the same page. You use that word to refer to practically any sin!

The amazing thing is that so few christains understand the issue of flesh and spirit that this nonsense is taught and accepted in many churches.

What makes you think you understand it???

 

[francisdesales]

This is what many fail to understand about "walking in the Spirit" you cannot earn your way into the Spirit nor can you earn your right to abide in the Spirit.

Who are you talking to, Mitspa? No one here has said anything of the sort. No one has said they can earn salvation or the right for God to abide in us. More strawmen? Do you actually understand anyone's position that you oppose?

I do not think that some really believe that Gods grace can give them power over sin, thats why they look to the law and there own effort. No its not by power nor by might, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.

Those who walk in Christ ARE obeying the Law, for love is the fulfillment (perfection) of the Law... LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. How can that be, if, according to you, the law is sin and evil???

The People of God are STILL not allowed to commit adultery - or even look at a woman with lust. Not only not allowed, but is "un-natural" for the man walking in the Spirit of God.

Now this takes REAL FAITH, the law is not of faith.

THe Law itself does not promote anything, it is neutral. People can follow it with all of their heart, or just go through the motions.

Legalism is not of faith. It should be obvious by now that Paul means legalistic following of the law without the spirit is not of faith. Have you actually read the OT? The just live by faith. Their lives are a reflection of following the Torah, the Wisdom of God, the Word of God, the Will of God.

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace. The strength of sin is the law.

And Paul calls the Law holy... ONE of you are confused.

So again I make the warning to those who are teaching others to sin, by teaching the law. Repent of your evil and turn from your wicked ways.

Mitspa, ever here of that talk about removing the log from your eye first?

You teach others it's OK to sin by ignoring what Christ has NOT abrogated. The Christ IS the Torah personified. You are 180 degrees out of synch with what Paul is attacking regarding the Law

 

[francisdesales]

Well I have the Holy Spirit in full measure and have the gifts that the scriptures clearly describe. So that proves nothing, for many of those who turned back into law, as in the book of Gal. had received this as well, but where cutoff and had falling from grace because they turned from grace back to the law.

So just because one can speak in tongues means little to me, for there are many false charismatic movements and they all have false gifts of the Spirit.

So I would suggest that you are not the teacher. For I have judged your doctrines and your ability to present the scriptures in an honest way. I have found you to lack even basic biblical understanding and seem to have little ability to be honest about the intention of the scriptures you quote.

I urge you to warn yourself, and teach yourself before you go about to teach and warn others.

Wow...

 

[Free]

Well one cannot just lift the book of Revelation outside of the rest of the New Testament and think they understand this book! The only sin that causes a believer to fall from grace or to be cutoff from Christ, is to turn from grace into legalism.
The law is not of faith, and those who are under the law are cutoff from Christ, they have fallen from grace.

So the most harsh warnings of scripture is there to warn against legalism and those who go about to establish their own righteousness, thus rejecting Christ.

We've been through this before. Not all the warnings have to do with legalism. So, no, turning "from grace into legalism" is not "the only sin that causes a believer to fall from grace or to be cut off from Christ."

 

[Free]

Wow...

No kidding...

 

[Sparkey]

Well I have the Holy Spirit in full measure and have the gifts that the scriptures clearly describe ...

Mitspa? I've not heard you make this claim before. What should I think?

 

[Ryan]

Wow...

Speechless

 

[josefnospam]

I am thankfull God paid for ALL my sins past, present and future and that he did it perfectly. If you can lose your salvation then it is weak and of no value. But my God Saved me and it is forever. Thank you Lord for your mercy and Grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again NO the written code does not judge who is justified by faith.

"12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom..." (James 2:12 NIV)

This doesn't mean we are justified (made righteous) by the works of the law. It means that the law, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' is how we can tell if we've been faithful to walk in the Spirit, or not. But somehow you can only hear this as meaning 'turning back to the condemnation of law'.

They are justified and the law stands only as a witness to Christ. He is our law and His commandment is to love.

The simplicty of Christ.

Paul says that when we love we have fulfilled the law:

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)

So, if I look at my life and see that I have, for example, lusted and coveted after my neighbor's spouse, and possessions I can see whether I really have been walking in the Spirit, or not. This is how the law does indeed act as 'judge' of those justified by faith in Christ.

And it is also how I can tell if someone else has been walking in the Spirit in regard to those things, too. That doesn't give me the right to condemn them to hell, pronouncing judgment on them. It does give me the right to warn them that if they continue on that path they will be destroyed. They can sort the rest out for themselves from there.


21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (Matthew 7:21, 24-27 NIV)