Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

[Hope of glory]

Dan 11:21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries

And that is exactly what happen, in the past. It's amazing that the prophecy in Daniel is so exact with what took place. All the different rulers that came into power right down to the daughter of one marrying another one and they become enemies. Cleopatra 1.
This is why so many modern and seculars try to say Daniel was written later than it was because that prophecy is so exact with history that even unbelievers can see. So they try to discredit Daniel. Even the Jews do not include his book with the other prophets!! Ask [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] about that.

The reason why that did not happen in the past is the simple fact that ,the vile person is satan himself.......No one in history has or can play that role....The things satan shall do when he arrives,will be supernatural,no mere man can perform the things that satan shall,as he pretends to be Christ,just not possible....That's the deception that Christ warned us about........satan is the desolator

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation(the desolator - false Christ), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it (he) ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


satan as of now is still in heaven,he has yet to be kicked out....

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So Satan, along with his angels, has been in heaven! He’s been up there accusing innocent people of God knows what. Oh yeah, God’s the one who’s had to listen to it all this time. Man, He must get sick of it.

Please note that Rev 12 happens before Jesus Christ returns. That means that Satan will be here before Jesus arrives. Will you recognize him?

2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

When Satan is booted out of heaven into the earth, he won't have much time, so he will head straight for the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also
our Lord was crucified. Do you know the signs of Satan's coming? Are you familiar with the Seven Seals, Trumpets, and Vials? Do you know the Parable of the Fig Tree?

Satan (the son of perdition), will appear as a man, sitting in the temple of God (Jerusalem), claiming to be the Messiah. He will be charming; he will perform miracles for you; he wants to win you over to his side. He is a liar and the enemy of our Father.

Again,there is noway possible for this to have happened in the past,period!!!!​

​

Im restoring this thread to it's original text and scope. The context of Mark 13 reveals powerful evidence that the AOD was fulfilled by 70ad. If anyone is interested in looking into what Mark 13 is actually saying, great! Let's see!

Let's start with some "contextual facts" from Mark 13. Could you please give a yes or no answer to the following questions.

Mark 13:1 "And as he went out of the temple, one if his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here?
The disciples were speaking of Jerusalem and the temple.... YES or NO?

Mark 13:2 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
Jesus was making reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and was prophesying it's destruction which took place in 70ad.
YES or NO?

Mark 13:3-4 "And as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
In this context, the question "when shall these things be" means......when shall the stones of Jerusalem and the temple be thrown down (when shall the city be destroyed) YES or NO?
in this context, the question "what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled" means....what will signify (be the sign) that Jerusalem is about to be destroyed. YES or NO

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

 

[Hope of glory]

In Mark's account of the olivet discourse in Mark 13, we find strong contextual evidence which points to a 70AD fulfillment of the AOD and Jesus' "coming in the clouds".

Mark 13:1-4 "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings,? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
And as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter James and John and Andrew asked Jim privately.
Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Notice that the disciples questions are ONLY about Jerusalems destruction and NOT about the "end of the age" as in Math.24.

"When shall these things be...."
That is, when shall every stone be thrown down (when will Jerusalem be destroyed)?
"...What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"
That is, what will signify that Jerusalems destruction is about to take place?

I submit to you that the answers to these questions are found in verses 14 and 30

The "time" when Jerusalem was destroyed was within "that (this) generation" (v30)
"...this generation shall not pass until all these things be done"

The "sign" which signified this destruction was immenent was SEEING the AOD (v14)
"But when YOU shall see the AOD.....then let them that be in Judea flee into the mountains"

The fact that Jesus says that the disciples would SEE the AOD and SEE his "coming in the
clouds" in the context of answering their questions about Jerusalems destruction is very significant.

Powerful contextual evidence indeed that the AOD and Jesus' coming in the clouds were connected to and fulfilled by 70ad

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?

Hope of glory

I must stop posting and put the mod cap on... The OP has requested time and time again to stay or return to topic... MODERATOR

Thank you Reba, my thought exactly!

 

[n2thelight]

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived. ...

 

[JLB]

Notice that the disciples questions are ONLY about Jerusalems destruction and NOT about the "end of the age" as in Math.24.

I thought you said that Mark 13 and Matthew 24 and Luke 21 where all the Olivet Discourse?

I guess you must have changed your mind.

The AOD that Jesus referred to in Daniel, is not associated with 70 AD.

Are you saying Mark's AOD is different than Daniel's?

If so, why?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

No, absolutely positively not!

By the rules of interpretation, for there to be context, there must be language that is associated with that context, otherwise there is nothing to tie the context to.

Where is the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, that we see in Daniel, of which Jesus Himself refers to Daniel for this understanding, yet we find no language to support any context in Jesus's discourse, which starts out as, And Jesus, answering them, began to say:

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

Definition of CONTEXT

1
: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning




JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Notice that the disciples questions are ONLY about Jerusalems destruction and NOT about the "end of the age" as in Math.24.

I thought you said that Mark 13 and Matthew 24 and Luke 21 where all the Olivet Discourse?

I guess you must have changed your mind.

The AOD that Jesus referred to in Daniel, is not associated with 70 AD.

Are you saying Mark's AOD is different than Daniel's?

If so, why?


JLB

JLB, you should read more carefull.

I said: "Notice that the disciples QUESTIONS are ONLY about Jerusalems destruction and NOT about the "end of the age" as in Math.24."
The QUESTIONS are not the same, I did not say the "discourses" were not the same.
All three discourses are the same discourse just from different perspectives, I have not changed my mind.

Please, let's deal with the context of Mark 13.

Please answer the following questions:

Mark 13:1 "And as he went out of the temple, one if his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here?
The disciples were speaking of Jerusalem and the temple.... YES or NO?

Mark 13:2 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
Jesus was making reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and was prophesying it's destruction which took place in 70ad.
YES or NO?

Mark 13:3-4 "And as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
In this context, the question "when shall these things be" means......when shall the stones of Jerusalem and the temple be thrown down (when shall the city be destroyed) YES or NO?
in this context, the question "what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled" means....what will signify (be the sign) that Jerusalem is about to be destroyed. YES or NO

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

Thanks to all posters who will help this thread to progress!

 

[Hope of glory]

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

No, absolutely positively not!

By the rules of interpretation, for there to be context, there must be language that is associated with that context, otherwise there is nothing to tie the context to.

Where is the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, that we see in Daniel, of which Jesus Himself refers to Daniel for this understanding, yet we find no language to support any context in Jesus's discourse, which starts out as, And Jesus, answering them, began to say:

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

Definition of CONTEXT

1
: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning




JLB

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

"NO CONTEXT"!!!
So Mark 13 has no context?
This sounds like someone who does not want to deal with this thread would say.
Thanks for the laugh JLB!

Mark 13:5 begins by saying...."And Jesus answering them began to say..."
What was he answering ?.....,Their questions!
What were their questions about?....Jerusalems destruction!!!
Why did they ask question about Jerusalems destruction?.....Because Jesus prophesied it!
Why did Jesus prophecy it?....Because his disciples mentioned it's beauty!!!

This is the context about Jesus' answer!
There is obviously a "context" to Mark 13. Therefore my questions still remain unanswered.

JLB if you are going persist to say "there is no context to Mark.13" , you might as well save your fingers.
Blessings.

 

[Hope of glory]

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

No, absolutely positively not!

By the rules of interpretation, for there to be context, there must be language that is associated with that context, otherwise there is nothing to tie the context to.

Where is the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, that we see in Daniel, of which Jesus Himself refers to Daniel for this understanding, yet we find no language to support any context in Jesus's discourse, which starts out as, And Jesus, answering them, began to say:

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

Definition of CONTEXT

1
: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning




JLB

So according to you, Math.24 has "no context" either???????
Anyways, I will leave that alone.

 

[n2thelight]

Hope of glory

Im restoring this thread to it's original text and scope. The context of Mark 13 reveals powerful evidence that the AOD was fulfilled by 70ad. If anyone is interested in looking into what Mark 13 is actually saying, great! Let's see!

Let's start with some "contextual facts" from Mark 13. Could you please give a yes or no answer to the following questions.

Mark 13:1 "And as he went out of the temple, one if his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here?
The disciples were speaking of Jerusalem and the temple.... YES or NO?

Mark 13:2 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
Jesus was making reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and was prophesying it's destruction which took place in 70ad.
YES or NO?

Mark 13:3-4 "And as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
In this context, the question "when shall these things be" means......when shall the stones of Jerusalem and the temple be thrown down (when shall the city be destroyed) YES or NO?
in this context, the question "what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled" means....what will signify (be the sign) that Jerusalem is about to be destroyed. YES or NO

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

Yes that is the context ,however that has yet to happen,or I should say completly

All the stones WERE NOT thrown down in 70AD! Today there remain some stones right where they were in the days of Jesus. If all the stones were to be thrown down BEFORE the second coming, and Preterist admit this, and if all the stones were NOT THROWN DOWN in 70AD, then the second coming is still future and will NOT TAKE PLACE until these stones are all thrown down.

 

[JLB]

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

No, absolutely positively not!

By the rules of interpretation, for there to be context, there must be language that is associated with that context, otherwise there is nothing to tie the context to.

Where is the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, that we see in Daniel, of which Jesus Himself refers to Daniel for this understanding, yet we find no language to support any context in Jesus's discourse, which starts out as, And Jesus, answering them, began to say:

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

Definition of CONTEXT

1
: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning




JLB

So according to you, Math.24 has "no context" either???????
Anyways, I will leave that alone.

You wanted to stay with Mark 13.

Matthew 24 has no context or any language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary that the signs Jesus gave point to.

The signs that Jesus gave lead up to His Coming and the end of the age.

The phrase He used, which is the topic of this thread is -

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Obviously the great tribulation did not happen in 30 AD or 34 AD, nor has it happened in 70 AD.

Fact is, it hasn't happened yet.

So, we can conclude that the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet either.

Why?

Because for the AOD to happen, there needs to be a Temple!

As Daniel teaches, as it is written -

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:27

Why do you ignore the obvious?

Do you believe what Daniel 9:27 says?


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

Let's look at Mark 13 v7


Mark 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for shuch things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."

Question,when in the history of the world has there not been wars and rumors of war?My point is this.as long as this is the case,Christ has not returned,He shall not return until there is peace.....

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.".......

 

[n2thelight]

[SIZE=+1]Jerusalem - The Western Wall and its Tunnels[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]From the times of King Solomon to the return from the Babylonian exile and the Hasmonean period (tenth to first centuries BCE), the Temple Mount in Jerusalem was a relatively small platform built on top of Mount Moriah and its highest point was the Stone of Foundation; this was the site of the Temple. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]King Herod's greatest building project was to double the area of the Temple Mount by incorporating part of the hill to the northwest (which had to be levelled and on which he built the Antonia Fortress) and by filling up parts of the surrounding valleys. Herod transformed the Second Temple into an edifice of splendor and surrounded the Temple Mount on its four sides with massive retaining walls.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] The walls, founded on bedrock, were built of large ashlar stones with beautifully dressed margins. Each course was set back about 2 - 3 cm. from the course below it; the stones weigh some five tons each, the corner blocks tens of tons. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The Temple Mount, the buildings and the Temple itself were completely destroyed by the Roman legions in 70 CE. The lower part of the Temple Mount walls was preserved and its remains are still standing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Long sections of the southern wall of the Temple Mount and its southwestern corner were exposed during the 1970s, furnishing a comprehensive picture of the monumental Herodian walls surrounding the Temple Mount and the vast, planned areas of public construction outside of them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The western wall of the Temple Mount, inside today's Old City of Jerusalem, is the longest - 485 m. Most of its construction features, including the foundations and the four gates once located in it, are now known. Not far from the southwestern corner of the Temple Mount, the remains of "Robinson's Arch" can be seen projecting from the wall. This arch once supported a monumental staircase which gave access to the Temple Mount from the main street below it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=-1]Schematic interpretation of the whole Western Wall showing the section visible today[/SIZE]
Best known of the remaining Herodian Temple Mount constructions is the traditional Jewish prayer area of the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall") which has stood exposed, above ground level, for two thousand years. The Six-Day War provided an opportunity to explore along the continuation of the Western Wall from the prayer plaza northwards.

Entering a tunnel at the prayer plaza, one turns northwards into a medieval complex of subterranean vaulted spaces and a long corridor with rooms on either side. Incorporated into this complex is a Roman and medieval structure of vaults, built of large dressed limestone. It includes an earlier Herodian room, constructed of well-dressed stones, with double openings and walls decorated with protruding pilasters. Ch. Warren, who surveyed the area in the 19th century, erroneously named it the "Masonic Hall."

The vaulted complex ends at Wilson's Arch, named after the explorer who discovered it in the middle of the 19th century. The arch, supported by the Western Wall, was 12.8 m. wide and stood high above the present-day ground level. Josephus Flavius mentions a bridge which connected the Temple Mount with the Upper City to the west during the Second Temple period. This bridge once carried water via a conduit from Solomon's Pools; it was destroyed during the Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 CE) and rebuilt during the early Islamic period.

Beyond Wilson's Arch, a large cruciform hall, part of a Mamluk period construction, was cleared of debris and a large water cistern was removed, revealing the Herodian Western Wall in its full glory.

From this point, along the outer face of the Herodian western wall of the Temple Mount, a long narrow tunnel was dug slowly and with much care under the supervision of archeologists. As work progressed under the buildings of the present Old City, the tunnel was systematically reinforced with concrete supports. A stretch of the western wall - 300 m. long - was revealed in pristine condition, exactly as constructed by Herod.

At the end of this man-made tunnel, a 20 m. long section of a paved road and an earlier, rock-cut Hasmonean aqueduct leading to the Temple Mount were uncovered. Today one can proceed along it to a public reservoir and from there, a short new tunnel leads outside to the Via Dolorosa in the Muslim Quarter.

[SIZE=-1]The project of the Western Wall Tunnels was supervised by archeologists M. Ben-Dov and later by D. Bahat on behalf of the Israel Antiquities Authority. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/israelexp...gical sites in israel - the western wall.aspx[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]When Christ return ALL of this will be destroyed!!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE]




[/SIZE]

 

[Zinc]

And if Jesus came back in 70 AD, coming in the clouds...why didn't every eye see him? ;) I think something like THAT would be in our history books somewhere, don't you?

How is this relevant to what I said? I didn't say it was fulfilled. I just said that the events were supposed to happen in the first century.

 

[JLB]

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

No, absolutely positively not!

By the rules of interpretation, for there to be context, there must be language that is associated with that context, otherwise there is nothing to tie the context to.

Where is the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, that we see in Daniel, of which Jesus Himself refers to Daniel for this understanding, yet we find no language to support any context in Jesus's discourse, which starts out as, And Jesus, answering them, began to say:

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

Definition of CONTEXT

1
: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Let's look at Mark 13 v7


Mark 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for shuch things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."


Question,when in the history of the world has there not been wars and rumors of war?My point is this.as long as this is the case,Christ has not returned,He shall not return until there is peace.....

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.".......

You quoted "Mark 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for shuch things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."

In the context of Mark 13, "the end" refers to the end of Jerusalem, it's destruction.
Jesus prophesied of Jerusalems destruction
The disciples asked: when? And what sign mark this destruction?
"The end" refers to Jerusalems destruction!

 

[Hope of glory]

The context of Mark 13:1-4 is the city of Jerusalem and it's prophesied destruction YES or NO?

No, absolutely positively not!

By the rules of interpretation, for there to be context, there must be language that is associated with that context, otherwise there is nothing to tie the context to.

Where is the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary, that we see in Daniel, of which Jesus Himself refers to Daniel for this understanding, yet we find no language to support any context in Jesus's discourse, which starts out as, And Jesus, answering them, began to say:

All we have are some questions by the disciples of Jesus, but from Jesus in His discourse we have no language, and therefore no context in Mark 13.

Definition of CONTEXT

1
: the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning




JLB

So according to you, Math.24 has "no context" either???????
Anyways, I will leave that alone.

You wanted to stay with Mark 13.

Matthew 24 has no context or any language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary that the signs Jesus gave point to.

The signs that Jesus gave lead up to His Coming and the end of the age.

The phrase He used, which is the topic of this thread is -

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Obviously the great tribulation did not happen in 30 AD or 34 AD, nor has it happened in 70 AD.

Fact is, it hasn't happened yet.

So, we can conclude that the Abomination of Desolation hasn't happened yet either.

Why?

Because for the AOD to happen, there needs to be a Temple!

As Daniel teaches, as it is written -

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:27

Why do you ignore the obvious?

Do you believe what Daniel 9:27 says?


JLB

JLB
Sorry brother, since you believe there is no context in either Mark 13 or Math.24, your arguement for the "context of the end of the age" in Math.24 falls apart.
There is no context remember LOL!
Until you get back to Mark 13 and acknowledge that there is a context, your points are meaningless (they are all without context...lol).
Back to Mark

 

[JLB]

"The end" refers to Jerusalems destruction!

The end of the age is the destruction of Jerusalem?

What happened to the Great Tribulation?

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

What about the signs in the heavens and earth -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

When did Jesus come in the clouds with power and great glory and gather His people?

The end of the age is the resurrection!

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

This age is marked the fact that people still die.

The age to come is marked by God's people having their resurrection bodies, and they will never die!

People are still dying everyday, therefore it is still called TODAY [this age].


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

[SIZE=+1]Jerusalem - The Western Wall and its Tunnels[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]From the times of King Solomon to the return from the Babylonian exile and the Hasmonean period (tenth to first centuries BCE), the Temple Mount in Jerusalem was a relatively small platform built on top of Mount Moriah and its highest point was the Stone of Foundation; this was the site of the Temple. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]King Herod's greatest building project was to double the area of the Temple Mount by incorporating part of the hill to the northwest (which had to be levelled and on which he built the Antonia Fortress) and by filling up parts of the surrounding valleys. Herod transformed the Second Temple into an edifice of splendor and surrounded the Temple Mount on its four sides with massive retaining walls.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] The walls, founded on bedrock, were built of large ashlar stones with beautifully dressed margins. Each course was set back about 2 - 3 cm. from the course below it; the stones weigh some five tons each, the corner blocks tens of tons. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The Temple Mount, the buildings and the Temple itself were completely destroyed by the Roman legions in 70 CE. The lower part of the Temple Mount walls was preserved and its remains are still standing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Long sections of the southern wall of the Temple Mount and its southwestern corner were exposed during the 1970s, furnishing a comprehensive picture of the monumental Herodian walls surrounding the Temple Mount and the vast, planned areas of public construction outside of them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The western wall of the Temple Mount, inside today's Old City of Jerusalem, is the longest - 485 m. Most of its construction features, including the foundations and the four gates once located in it, are now known. Not far from the southwestern corner of the Temple Mount, the remains of "Robinson's Arch" can be seen projecting from the wall. This arch once supported a monumental staircase which gave access to the Temple Mount from the main street below it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=-1]Schematic interpretation of the whole Western Wall showing the section visible today[/SIZE]
Best known of the remaining Herodian Temple Mount constructions is the traditional Jewish prayer area of the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall") which has stood exposed, above ground level, for two thousand years. The Six-Day War provided an opportunity to explore along the continuation of the Western Wall from the prayer plaza northwards.

Entering a tunnel at the prayer plaza, one turns northwards into a medieval complex of subterranean vaulted spaces and a long corridor with rooms on either side. Incorporated into this complex is a Roman and medieval structure of vaults, built of large dressed limestone. It includes an earlier Herodian room, constructed of well-dressed stones, with double openings and walls decorated with protruding pilasters. Ch. Warren, who surveyed the area in the 19th century, erroneously named it the "Masonic Hall."

The vaulted complex ends at Wilson's Arch, named after the explorer who discovered it in the middle of the 19th century. The arch, supported by the Western Wall, was 12.8 m. wide and stood high above the present-day ground
level. Josephus Flavius mentions a bridge which connected the Temple Mount with the Upper City to the west during the Second Temple period. This bridge once carried water via a conduit from Solomon's Pools; it was destroyed during the Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 CE) and rebuilt during the early Islamic period.

Beyond Wilson's Arch, a large cruciform hall, part of a Mamluk period construction, was cleared of debris and a large water cistern was removed, revealing the Herodian Western Wall in its full glory.

From this point, along the outer face of the Herodian western wall of the Temple Mount, a long narrow tunnel
was dug slowly and with much care under the supervision of archeologists. As work progressed under the buildings of the present Old City, the tunnel was systematically reinforced with concrete supports. A stretch of the western wall - 300 m. long - was revealed in pristine condition, exactly as constructed by Herod.

At the end of this man-made tunnel, a 20 m. long section of a paved road and an earlier, rock-cut Hasmonean aqueduct leading to the Temple Mount were uncovered. Today one can proceed along it to a public reservoir and from there, a short new tunnel leads outside to the Via Dolorosa in the Muslim Quarter.

[SIZE=-1]The project of the Western Wall Tunnels was supervised by archeologists M. Ben-Dov and later by
D. Bahat on behalf of the Israel Antiquities Authority. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/israelexp...ical sites in israel - the western wall.aspx[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]When Christ return ALL of this will be destroyed!!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE]




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Jesus' prophecy in Math, Mark, and Luke refers to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad.
Sorry, to argue this is illogical.
"This generation will not pass until all these things be done"!

I will begin another thread entitled "THIS GENERATION".....a first century generation", to deal with your claim that Jesus' prophecy of Jerusalems destruction refers to a future destruction.

I thought we were dealing with the context of Mark 13?

 

[Hope of glory]

"The end" refers to Jerusalems destruction!

The end of the age is the destruction of Jerusalem?

What happened to the Great Tribulation?

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

What about the signs in the heavens and earth -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

When did Jesus come in the clouds with power and great glory and gather His people?

The end of the age is the resurrection!

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

This age is marked the fact that people still die.

The age to come is marked by God's people having their resurrection bodies, and they will never die!

People are still dying everyday, therefore it is still called TODAY [this age].


JLB

I could very easily prove your statement wrong, but I will choose to remain focused of the issue of this thread.


Originally Posted by Hope of glory
"The end" refers to Jerusalems destruction!

Prove thus statement wrong by the context of Mark 13:1-4

Then please answer my previous contextual questions which you ignored:

Mark 13:1 "And as he went out of the temple, one if his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here?
The disciples were speaking of Jerusalem and the temple.... YES or NO?

Mark 13:2 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
Jesus was making reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and was prophesying it's destruction which took place in 70ad.
YES or NO?

Mark 13:3-4 "And as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
In this context, the question "when shall these things be" means......when shall the stones of Jerusalem and the temple be thrown down (when shall the city be destroyed) YES or NO?
in this context, the question "what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled" means....what will signify (be the sign) that Jerusalem is about to be destroyed. YES or NO

Thanks

 

[JLB]

I thought we were dealing with the context of Mark 13?

There is no context in Mark 13 of the Temple and city destruction. NONE! ZERO!

There is a minor reference in Luke 21, that may or may not refer to the Roman army.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

We see this same language in Zechariah -


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. 13 It shall come to pass in that day That a great panic from the Lord will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor's hand; 14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations Shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. 15 Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule, On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be. 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

We know this didn't happen in 70 AD!



And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

We certainly know this is not happening today!

It is likely that Luke 21 is a reference to this event in Zechariah 14.

What we know for sure is, that there is NO language in Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21 that speaks of the temple destruction!

Thats for sure!


JLB