Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Free]

To dismiss "polytheism" as a "religious word" is nonsensical. It is a total evasion of the seriousness of the contradiction that has been posited. And it appears that the contradiction isn't going to be dealt with.

Because of you Free. I will jump back in. Only out of respect as I normally jump out and stay out. I see no reason to continue this Trinity discussion, I don't see how it can productive. We already established it's a Mystery and I posted several different denominational beliefs that are modern by todays standard, All calling it a mystery. The mystery part in all of them if you go back and read their literature and creeds is that 3 does not equal 1. Also their definition of "god" would need changed expect that each person in the trinity is separate, distinct and fully God. They already understand that by definition each distinct person that is called God would also have to be triune or else Not God by definition. This presents major issues to the Doctrine itself. Not my words but those that wrote the doctrine. I am using their own findings and arguments.

So it becomes a mystery that the human finite mind can not comprehend.

I would like to see such evidence of these supposed denominational positions regarding the Trinity. I have a strong feeling that either you have not fully read them or not fully understood them.

Needless to say, there is a lot of writings on the Trinity out there and I have not come across even one that believes if each person is fully God that they would also have to be triune.

I have people here trying to explain something that those that wrote the doctrine already know you can't explain it. That is why I don't see a point to continue, because if it's a mystery that is a foreign concept to human reasoning then A) You accept it for what it is. Or B) you have to redefine who and what you always believed God to be.

It seems to me then that you have not understood this entire conversation. Again, I have not gone beyond anything that was understood by those who wrote the Trinity. Indeed, the very fact that they came up with the doctrine of the Trinity is because of the very biblical passages that I have presented. And many more besides. I have said this already yet you did not address it.

Isa 43:10-11, 10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

One God, one Saviour, One creator, there is no other God formed nor shall any be.

We examine that in fact by scripture there is only One God who created everything, and by whom we are saved. No question here. None made like him, none before or after Him. ONE.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This scripture says the same exact thing. There is ONE GOD by whom are all things. One that made everything and everything by HIM. NO other God, No other creator. We have Jesus our Lord by whom are all things, or through him are all things and we came to God because of Him.

God is the Saviour...................... How did the ONE God the creator save us?

Act_3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

The Creator, the Saviour "RAISED UP" His son. Not Sent Himself as the Creator did not need raised up. He sent His actual Son. By whom The ONE GOD, Creator of all things, made everything because and for His Son by whom the ONE GOD made an heir of all things.

Jesus was not confused at all...................... It's a Doctrine of man that is called a mystery that confuses the issue.

Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

ONE GOD that Sent his Son. There is no other God like the creator, no other God that saved us but the ONE GOD, The Father, The Creator having raised up A son for us and sent Him to us.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is Jesus, the Son of God who had always been with the Father, the Creator, whom the Creator gave glory to before the earth was even formed.

Missing is the other part of God in all these verses about glory and being raised up. The one that don't have a throne. That is God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit. Because He belongs to God.

I really don't know what your point is here.

Bible only teaches there is ONE GOD:

Wrong!!! The bible teachers there is only One God the Father, the creator. The definition of God used in the bible is ONE of something not triune in nature. Not one place is Triune or Trinity is used to describe God or the concept of a god. The Holy Spirit used different words. None denote a triune being, not even close.

2Co_4:4 In whom the god (Theos some name given to God the Father) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In whom the "What" of this World............................. GOD. Satan is not a triune being. That makes two gods at least if the creator is somehow triune by the mystery we are told.

Well, ......... Satan is not God brother Mike... I mean come on, really. He is just god of this Word, but not god.

Then you be the one to tell the Holy Spirit He should have used a different Greek word. Tell him He is Wrong when you talk to him. Theos ..... A deity of uncertain origin. The Holy Spirit could have used a number of different words.

Does a deity of uncertain origin sound Triune to you?

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (In response to accusing him of making himself to be God)

There are now 3 Gods. A triune God, Us and Satan...............Theos..

Well, Jesus did not mean we are god.... He just meant that we are something, something who knows, but not god. Go talk to Jesus about it, tell him He used the wrong Word.

God is not defined in the bible as Triune. It is defined as a class of something, given with the title. The bible defines more than one type of thing in that class. Trinity says there is only one God made up of 3 other distinct Gods.

I'll take the scripture over the mystery. I hope this is enough. (God had to raise up a Part of himself to send Himself in the flesh...... wow) It certainly is a mystery.

Mike.

Wow, you certainly don't seem to understand the fact that words have different meanings based on context. That is an elementary principle of biblical interpretation. Another basic principle is that clear passages of Scripture are used to bring understanding to those that are less clear or ambiguous. But you are going about that backwards.

I have given several passages which clearly and unambiguously state that there is only one God. There is no other way to understand those passages.

As for what else elohim and theos could refer to:

Ex 20:3-5, 3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me," (ESV)

Deut 4:28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. (ESV)

Deut 28:36 "The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone." (ESV)

Deut 28:64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known."(ESV)

1 Ch 16:25-26, 25 For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and he is to be feared above all gods.
26 For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the Lord made the heavens. (ESV)

So in all the above we see that the gods people serve that are not the one true God, are all worthless idols, often carved from wood and stone. We could talk of the Golden Calf and all sorts of other passages but that should suffice.

So then, when we come to a passage such as 1 Cor 8:4-5, we need to keep the above in mind:

4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"—(ESV)

Now, you have in a previous post taken issue with the ESV's insertion of "so-called," but as you can see, your concern is without basis. Even verse 4 makes this clear so it really is a non-issue just with that, but to back it up further is the abundant Scriptural evidence that these "gods" really are "so-called" and are not actual gods at all.

And just to make sure we're clear on Paul's position, Acts 19:23-27:

23 About that time there arose no little disturbance concerning the Way.
24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen.
25 These he gathered together, with the workmen in similar trades, and said, "Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth.
26 And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods.
27 And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship." (ESV)

Gal 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. (ESV)


Moving on then to what Jesus said in John 10:34:

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? (ESV)

The key question here is: Who did he say this to? He was speaking to "the Jews," as the translations read. Likely the Jewish leaders but it doesn't really matter. What we can be certain about is that he was not speaking to a class of beings that are gods. He was speaking to Jews, nothing more.

Here Jesus is quoting Ps 82:6:

6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;"

But what is important here is the context:

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." (ESV)


I know I could go back and find where you said Satan was a god and therefore immortal, and I will if I have to, but here we can see that these "gods" will die "like men, and fall like any prince."

This is a little ambiguous, so we turn to what is clear to make sense of it. What is clear is that there is only one God, that there are no others, and that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. We also know that in Jesus' quoting of this passage, in speaking to the Jews, he used it to reference the Jews. In other words, Jesus clearly used Ps 82:6 as though it was speaking of the Jews, of men.

And we see hints of this in Ps 82:7. We know that the judges of Israel were referred to as gods. In that time and culture those who were rulers were thought of as gods. See Ps 45:6, for example. Look up the use of elohim and you will see that it is translated as "judges" in a few places.

So when we come to 2 Cor 4:4 where Paul refers to Satan as "the god of this world," we again refer to that which is clear and that which has been affirmed throughout Scripture. Satan cannot be considered an actual god. This goes against everything else the Bible says. It is quite likely that Paul is referring to the fact that the world sets up Satan as though he is a god, that he is given control of the people of this world by their rejection of Jesus.

And on it goes. So, no, there is no class of beings that are actual gods. There was, is, and ever will be only one God. This is a truth that is affirmed throughout Scripture.

 

[Guest]

Brother Mike believes that there is one God with 3 separate persons working as God deity. That's what you believe Free.

That's what I believe but it is not what Brother Mike believes.

Incorrect. Never assume things.

 

[Free]

Brother Mike believes that there is one God with 3 separate persons working as God deity. That's what you believe Free.

That's what I believe but it is not what Brother Mike believes.

Incorrect. Never assume things.

I have assumed nothing. I may have misunderstood but I'm fairly certain that I haven't.

 

[Guest]

@Free

Brother Mike believes that there is one God with 3 separate persons working as God deity.

I do

 

[Brother Mike]

Needless to say, there is a lot of writings on the Trinity out there and I have not come across even one that believes if each person is fully God that they would also have to be triune.

Free. we are not on the same page here.

You said there is only ONE GOD.
Definition of ONE GOD is 3 are ONE.
Each one is a distinct Person, and also God.
Definition of ONE GOD is 3 are ONE.

If the 3 are not triune, but fully God and distinct. Then Jesus Is fully God without having to also be Triune.
If Jesus can be God without being Triune because there is ONLY ONE GOD, NO other god mentioned in the bible. As the Bible does not teach monotheism. And the definition of God is 3 are ONE. Then Jesus being God who is not triune and God the father who is not triune, that makes 2 Gods.

If it don't make 2 Gods, then All 3 persons who are distinct and God, Have to be Triune or the definition fails.

If the definition fails, then There is more than ONE GOD in the bible, but only One Creator who had a Son.

All your scriptures Fee make the assumption that there is only God a triune being. If you would just for 5 seconds consider the slim possibility that there is ONE GOD, ONE FATHER, ONE CREATOR who gave his Son who is God, LIKE the father glory before the foundation of the World. Then there is still just one God, One Saviour (who sent His son to save us much like I would throw a life preserver to save you) One God, One Lord Jesus Christ just how it's always mentioned who is God no less then the Father. Then all those scriptures you posted Free still prove the same thing that there is no other Creator or Father that made all things.

In my version from what I see in scripture there is also a Son who had always been with the Father. Not a person who is distinct and God. He can't even be God according to the trinity definition unless triune anyway. We know that is not so because that creates a infinite loop of Gods. Yet it can't be ONE GOD without being Triune or we have to change the trinity Doctrine a bit to say ONE Class of Gods or Team which would be simpler.

I hope you see the contradictions I am talking about. We also have a Oneness doctrine here. One God with a multiple personality disorder.

You can post scriptures all day Free and we Agree 100% there is ONE GOD. The difference is instead of me Making the Father a distinct person who is also God. I make that One God the creator who spoke of His servant Jesus to come that had always been with him and gave Him glory before the foundation of the World.

The Trinity is missing a God class here for the next step up. 3 GOD's that are persons and distinct but not triune need to be called the Supreme God or team or whatever. Otherwise by definition the 3 have to also be Triune to qualify as God, and if they don't then Jesus is God and so is his Father but that makes 2 brother.

I hope someone can sort through all this and learn something. I don't know what but something like not to debate a Trinity doctrine.

Blessings....

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

One more thing Free.................................

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

If you use a gutless translation that is not Hebrew to prove a point, there can be no more discussion. You don't understand why Jesus called them theos.

God 'ĕlôhı̂ym stands in the congratulation of the El's and judges among the God's. 'ĕlôhı̂ym

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

seriously Free.................... I can give you links to get E-sword and I can send you some bibles. Just ask...............

Psa 82:6 IH589 have said,H559 Ye are gods;H430 and allH3605 of youH859 are childrenH1121 of the most High.H5945

We are what? and Children of Who? Which are called God's offspring? Which each seed produces after it's own kind? Your not a half a cut above a Monkey free. Your a child of the most High God, born from the Word the same Word that Brought us Jesus. That is who you are.

Mike.

 

[Free]

One more thing Free.................................

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

If you use a gutless translation that is not Hebrew to prove a point, there can be no more discussion. You don't understand why Jesus called them theos.

God 'ĕlôhı̂ym stands in the congratulation of the El's and judges among the God's. 'ĕlôhı̂ym

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

seriously Free.................... I can give you links to get E-sword and I can send you some bibles. Just ask...............

Mike.

Other than once again showing your spirit of pride and condescending tone, you have shown nothing. You say I'm wrong yet you don't even show how. You didn't even address the point I made. So instead of dealing with the points you attack me instead.

My point stands. The Jews to whom Jesus was referring were not actual gods and neither are those in Ps 82:6.

 

[jasoncran]

jesus never said the jews were gods.that isn't what the chapter is about.the idea of god in that is the idea of like God they are judges. the Sanhedrin weren't the ari. they didn't move mountains and heal etc. the prophets did. no prophet save moses even was part of the sandhedrin. and moses set up the first sandedrin . he wasn't on the council.

 

[Brother Mike]

Other than once again showing your spirit of pride and condescending tone, you have shown nothing. You say I'm wrong yet you don't even show how. You didn't even address the point I made. So instead of dealing with the points you attack me instead.

My point stands. The Jews to whom Jesus was referring were not actual gods and neither are those in Ps 82:6

Free, the reason you don't understand what Jesus said is because your definition of God is messed up. Theos is a deity (immortal) of uncertain affinity. We are gods just like our father. Spirits, and eternal one place or another. Jesus point was they were in the same boat but not taking up the nature of their creator.

Anything that fits that definition is theos and does not denote power, authority or ability. Theose is defined by title. Father God, Satan god of this World and so on.

Anyway you did not address my concern about the Triune contradiction.

Our definitions are the same though I believe Jesus is God, separate and distinct from the Father and not triune. Trinity says it can't be God unless Triune. If Jesus can be God and not be Triune that makes 2 Free.

I really don't see a reason to continue this (Trinity) debate. We both are unable to understand each others terms. It's a dumb debate anyway because we both believe in ONE GOD the difference is I believe God also had a Son whom he honed before the foundation of the World. You say the son is a distinct and separate person who is God but part of a Triune God. That is the difference.

God bless.

Mike.


Blessing

 

[Free]

Needless to say, there is a lot of writings on the Trinity out there and I have not come across even one that believes if each person is fully God that they would also have to be triune.

Free. we are not on the same page here.

You said there is only ONE GOD.
Definition of ONE GOD is 3 are ONE.
Each one is a distinct Person, and also God.
Definition of ONE GOD is 3 are ONE.

If the 3 are not triune, but fully God and distinct. Then Jesus Is fully God without having to also be Triune.
If Jesus can be God without being Triune because there is ONLY ONE GOD, NO other god mentioned in the bible. As the Bible does not teach monotheism. And the definition of God is 3 are ONE. Then Jesus being God who is not triune and God the father who is not triune, that makes 2 Gods.

If it don't make 2 Gods, then All 3 persons who are distinct and God, Have to be Triune or the definition fails.

If the definition fails, then There is more than ONE GOD in the bible, but only One Creator who had a Son.

All I can say to that is you really need to go back and reread everything I have stated, including the basic definition of the Trinity. The Bible most certainly affirms monotheism, as I have proven with Scripture.

All your scriptures Fee make the assumption that there is only God a triune being. If you would just for 5 seconds consider the slim possibility that there is ONE GOD, ONE FATHER, ONE CREATOR who gave his Son who is God, LIKE the father glory before the foundation of the World. Then there is still just one God, One Saviour (who sent His son to save us much like I would throw a life preserver to save you) One God, One Lord Jesus Christ just how it's always mentioned who is God no less then the Father. Then all those scriptures you posted Free still prove the same thing that there is no other Creator or Father that made all things.

You're dodging. I suspect that you just don't want to actually address the passages I have given. None of those passages I have given assume that God is triune. The Trinity had nothing to do with why I posted them, which affirms my suspicions that you just don't want to have to deal with what I've posted. It seems as though you didn't even read the post.

The whole reason for those passages is that they show, clearly, that the use of "gods" in the Bible is not what you make it out to be. It is used of judges and those who rule on earth on behalf of God. I was proving monotheism over against your polytheism.

In my version from what I see in scripture there is also a Son who had always been with the Father. Not a person who is distinct and God. He can't even be God according to the trinity definition unless triune anyway. We know that is not so because that creates a infinite loop of Gods. Yet it can't be ONE GOD without being Triune or we have to change the trinity Doctrine a bit to say ONE Class of Gods or Team which would be simpler.

Again, you need to go back and reread everything. I have already dealt with this.

I hope you see the contradictions I am talking about. We also have a Oneness doctrine here. One God with a multiple personality disorder.

No, this has nothing to do with Oneness. If you see that then you're reading what you want, not what is written.

You can post scriptures all day Free and we Agree 100% there is ONE GOD.

Again you contradict yourself. You keep saying that Jesus is God and the Father is God, making two Gods, yet you also keep saying there is one God.

And doing that while denying the Bible teaches monothesim, hence why you need to actually deal with the passages I gave. Monotheism is a foundational truth of Judaism and Christianity.

The difference is instead of me Making the Father a distinct person who is also God. I make that One God the creator who spoke of His servant Jesus to come that had always been with him and gave Him glory before the foundation of the World.

I don't disagree with anything there.

 

[Brother Mike]

You're dodging. I suspect that you just don't want to actually address the passages I have given. None of those passages I have given assume that God is triune. The Trinity had nothing to do with why I posted them, which affirms my suspicions that you just don't want to have to deal with what I've posted. It seems as though you didn't even read the post.

Free I love you brother and we both have gotten sort of heated and both pulling our hair out trying to get across what each other mean. I made an assumption here that was wrong about you, and because I did that I miss what you were trying to explain to me. Same thing with you. We have why other different understandings about who we actually are. What type of being we are and who's Children we are. I know you believe we are just like the father, created in our fathers image. I know you don't think we are part animal. I know you believe we are Spirits that will have an eternal place somewhere (Unless you don't believe in eternal punishment, that would be a whole other topic)

Your problem came calling us gods as in the class of, yet I bet if we break it down without the "god" term we believe the same.

I think we should just give this a rest because we find we believe the same thing but looking at it different.

If I was a JW or Mormon then this would be so much more simple. You could dust me under the door in no time but the problem is we believe very close to the same thing if not the same thing. Heck, we might not even be debating trinity at this point. I don't even know.

I think we should take a break and if anyone comes in to give their opinion then come back. Let someone else take the torch and give their thoughts. We do have a oneness doctrine floating around here which is pretty close to the trinity doctrine.

Blessings, I am going to let others chime in..

Mike.

 

[Randy]

In this thread, I would like to focus specifically on the word 'FULLY'. Fully means entirely or wholly. ALL of you! So if Jesus was fully God, he wouldn't of had to pray to the Father to raise Lazarus. Saying that Jesus is fully God is foolish of us, and I'll tell you why. When a born again Christian receives the Holy Spirit, he's not receiving ALL of the Father, no. He's receiving only a portion. That portion is called the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not FULLY God, but rather he is the WAY to God.

Yes, Jesus is the only way to God the Father, but scripture never says that Jesus is in fact THE God the Father. Jesus is the intercessor BETWEEN God the Father and humanity. Notice I said between stating two different parties, God the Father and humanity. God the Father isn't the intercessor between himself and humanity, no. Jesus has an entirely separate role to play. God the Father is the creator, and Jesus is the intercessor. Creator/Intercessor/Two different roles. When you pray, do you pray to God the Father or Jesus?

Jesus is the Son. The Father (His God and our God) is in Him. As in the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. In that manner Jesus and the Father are ONE. It was the Father in Jesus doing His work as Jesus taught. If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.

Its clear Jesus who is the image of the invisible God took on our weaknesses. Jesus prayed in gethsemane for the cup to pass if possible. God answered in another manner. Gods angel strengthened Him. Jesus had to learn (like us) to rely on our Heavenly Father.

rely: Depend on with full trust or confidence.

Is Jesus God?

Like the questions about trying to understand the trinity He never dies.

Yes, He is all that Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. (Firstborn of all creation)

fullness of the Deity:includes all the treasures of knowledge and wisdom. It would be difficult for the Son to have a hand in all that God created without that knowledge, power, and ability. Gods fullness was in Him. In that manner Jesus is the One and Only Son who is a exact representation of Gods being. God has many children but Jesus is the One and Only at the Fathers side.

Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Note the word Son.

R.

 

[Eugene]

Is Jesus God?

Like the questions about trying to understand the trinity He never dies.

Yes, He is all that Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. (Firstborn of all creation)

Hi Randy and thanks for your interpretation. I will offer the following scripture I believe to counter that thought.

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God (elohiym).

Isaiah 43:11 I (Jesus), even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Randy]

Is Jesus God?

Like the questions about trying to understand the trinity He never dies.

Yes, He is all that Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. (Firstborn of all creation)

Hi Randy and thanks for your interpretation. I will offer the following scripture I believe to counter that thought.

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God (elohiym).

Isaiah 43:11 I (Jesus), even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Isaiah 43 doesn't have the word Jesus but I certainly believe it was the Father in the Son doing His work.

Randy

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

........equal in deity

What does the above even mean? Is it saying that deity a race or breed of being that possessed similarities that distinguish its race from all other beings? That's the only logical conclusion I can see being drawn from the above statement.
The equality of Jesus with Father God seems to greatly exagerated by its proponents. Admittedly some texts could lead one to draw such a conclusion, but others clearly state that the Son, Jesus, is subject to The Father that has authority over even the Son which makes them UNequal in authority.

 

[Brother Mike]

Eugene

Isaiah 43:11 I (Jesus), even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

We should examine these scriptures without a doctrine concept. A predefined concept can mess us up, Or it can help but we need to Look at it with and without. That is the crummy things about doctrine, they can blind you to things that are true or they can help make things more clear.

In these scriptures your trying to say it's Jesus who is saying there is no Saviour but HIM. Trinity believes in 3 that are all distinct, separate, and God. Trinity then would not need Jesus speaking here technically. (Even though there is ONE GOD but that was the mystery part anyway)

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The Saviour is the part of the Trinity that would be called GOD The Father. He was the one that sent One of the parts for us and He is the one that crucified Him for Us.
Act_13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

It was the God the Father Part that raised up the Son Part for us and spoke to bring that all to pass.

Mike.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

YLT: Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jesus is the Father of eternity or eternal life. The first born of the dead. Without Him there is no eternal life Just a few things I found on a very long road trying to sort it all out.

It is a lot to sort out because it seems that all of the translators took some liberties, especially in their translation of certain words. In the Isaiah 9 text, I'm puzzled as to why the translators used the word 'eternity' or 'everlasting' as oppossed to 'age', 'eon', or some other finite time period in their translation of the Greek aion or the Hebrew olam. They just inserted the concept of eternity in all willy-nilly for no apparent reason. A more accurate rendering would read:

Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, father of the age that is coming, Prince of Peace.

Using words that denote eternity causes unnecesary confusion.

As far as Jesus being the father of eternal life, pump the brakes. Isn't that reserved for the eternal God? According to the scriptures Jesus conquered death and made the hope of life, age lasting a reality for man, but that hardly made him the father of eternal life being that The Father is thought to possess and has always possessed this trait.

 

[Eugene]

Brother Mike, I have no such qualms proclaiming Jesus as God, and I have no church membership other than belonging to the body of Christ. There is only one head of the church which all in Christ are a part of regardless of our different doctrines or denominational attachments.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Can we agree that Jesus is the word? (John 1:14)

John 1:2 "The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God." Jesus was not born of God there, nor was He created as JW's and Mormons believe.

John 1:3 "All things were made by him (Jesus); and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Is this then saying that as God Jesus created the heaven and the earth?

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Matthew 1:23 ". . they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Hopefully we can agree this is not saying that it is the Father in Jesus that is with us.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus was here before the Earth was formed and His father had given him Glory even before that. This proves Jesus is not created, had always been here, had always been honored by the Father whom Jesus always honored as His Father.

An incarnation of Jesus may in fact have pre-existed the creation of the world we know, but this text really doesn't do much to support that idea. We are not told anything about what the glory referred to in the text means so we can't say for certain if it refers to a pre-existant Jesus or if it instead refers to the intentions of the Father for the future Jesus/Son that had not yet been born.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Clearly deity and personality are distinct. Three distinct Persons in one glorious God. Arguing to the contrary would be unScriptural. The references given can be followed through.

Quite debatable.

If we look at deity as being equivalent to all things God, we then could use the scriptures to say things like: Deity is one, but is able to manifest itself in creation in verious ways. The 3 most prevalent manifestations/personalities listed in scripture are as a Holy Spirit, as the Son of Deity, and as Deity in general which is also called The Father. In other instances we've had deity manifest itself as human avatars as God seemingly did in Genesis 18.